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Brake pads for road course

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Old 02-03-2011, 05:55 PM   #1
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Default Brake pads for road course

Hey guys, I have a 2011 GT with brembo brakes that I will be taking to a few road courses this year for HPDE's and open track days. I already ordered some Steeda SS lines and have Motul RBF600 ready to go in. I also have Ford Racing brake cooling ducts but I'm really not sure what brake pads to get. I'm going to New Jersey Motorsports Park Lightning track on April 2nd and I'm looking for pads that I can install at my house or job and drive to there, on the track and back home with them on then take them off after I get back home. I live on Long Island, the track is 4 hours away from where I live and I have to go through the New York City area so chances are I will need the brakes to work pretty good on the street. I probably could change the pads at the track but I'd rather not if there's another option. I was thinking about getting Hawk HP Plus pads but I haven't heard too many good things about them. Do you guys have any suggestions?
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Old 02-03-2011, 06:22 PM   #2
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Hi there Kona,

I also have a 2011 GT which will go to the track, so I'm interested in the feedback, but...

I've been to lots of track days at several tracks in many different cars, and never really had any trouble with stock brakes. I did solo2 in a stock focus and managed just fine (that car was so slow, I din't need brakes). There's a HUGE difference between tracking and racing, so don't forget why you're at the track. If the pedal goes soft, slow down for a while. If you are regularly overheating the brakes at track days, I suggest you invest in a roll cage and some number plates!

At the days I attend it's tough to get in a clean fast lap, so the brakes have time to cool. I brake harder than most people at the track, but not nearly as hard as when I was actively racing. My cars rarely get into ABS on purpose, and I use max performance tires like the pirellis on the GT. Sometimes I misjudge my braking point and hit them too hard, or leave them on too deep into corners, but those are driving errors not brake problems.

R comps can certainly stress the brakes more than my tires. All seasons will get into ABS more often, and may cause uneven deposits on your brakes, which sucks.

I am also very careful to let the brakes cool before I stop by doing a cool down lap, or driving around the pits for a while. I never use my parking brake. Ever.
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Old 02-03-2011, 07:52 PM   #3
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April 2nd? According to the calender on the NJMSP website some outfit called Run the North Shore has the track rented. Who are they?

Here is the Pad Thread to read: http://mustangforums.com/forum/s197-...the-track.html

I've driven Lightning several times. I'd say its about medium on brakes, there are two hard brake zones in roughly a 1:20 second lap. Thunderbolt is much tougher on them.

Do you have previous track experience? If not, then you can get away with 'less' pad. Also, I'm assuming you will be on street tires? Which ones. The grippier the tire the more pad you need. If you are new to this and you are on all seasons then HP+ should work fine. If you are experienced or real aggressive or on super sticky tires then you will want more pad.

I've tried quite a few track pads on the street and all of them stop the car just fine when cold, so there really isn't a worry there regardless of which ones you select. The problems using track pads on the street are: they squeal like an old dump truck, they are dusty as heck and they eat rotors quickly.
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Old 02-03-2011, 08:00 PM   #4
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Are you planning on changing both the front and rear pads for use on the track?

I run Carbotech XP10 front and XP 8 rear all season from the first track day to the end of the season. They squeal like a stuck pig on the street but stop the car well even when cold.

Do a search in this forum on Carbotech and you should find a few threads discussing pads.
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Old 02-03-2011, 08:55 PM   #5
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Im going to a pro-touring event, heres the info http://www.pro-touring.com/showthrea...n-here-please! http://www.pro-touring.com/events/rtts/form.php there should still be spots open if anyone is interested
I have only been on a road course once, at Monticello Motor Club with the SCDA. That was in October on a cold and very rainy day so due to my lack of experience and the weather I really wasn't too hard on the brakes that day and had no problems. But in my group(novice), I was pretty much keeping up with the fastest people and my instructor said I was doing great. Then I was on my stock tires, Pirelli PZero's. Those tires really surprised me with the amount of grip they had in the rain. But since those tires are so expensive I'm going to be getting a separate set of wheels and tires for the track any day now, I'm just trying to decide on a tire. I was thinking about getting Nitto NT01's, but I thought about it, and since I have no way of bringing a second set of wheels just in case it rains and it's probably more tire than I need, I'm pretty much set on getting Nitto NT05 275/40-18's on Steeda Ultralight 18x10's. I am planning on changing both front and rear pads. I guess another factor compared to the last time I was on the track is that my car has a lot more power now that I have a CAI and a dyno tune so I will have the ability to get quite a bit faster. The main reason I'm looking into a set of pads is just to be safe on the track and to have fun without having to deal with brake fade.
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Old 02-04-2011, 02:57 AM   #6
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Starting last season I carry my track wheels and tire and tools in the car to the track and change them at the track. The trick is to put one tire into the spare tire well.

I ran Nitto NT01s on Enkei PF01 18 x 9.5 rims. The NT01s are not the ultimate grip tire but last a lot longer than those that are, e.g. Hossier A6 or R6. When the NT01s are new you can drive them to the track but once they get worn down to just the two longitudinal grooves it is not a good idea in case it rains.
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Old 02-04-2011, 05:40 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Argonaut View Post
April 2nd? According to the calender on the NJMSP website some outfit called Run the North Shore has the track rented. Who are they?
The "Run to the Shore" is an event that's coming from the "Pro-Touring" segment. The guys who are serious about the performance, not the guys who stop at just getting "the look".

Here's the e-mail on it. Probably more on it over on www.protouring.com .

Quote:
MuscleRides.com Run To The Shore event news


New Jersey Motorsports Park is fairly new. Now the northeast guys have a track that is regularly rented by SCCA, Corvette clubs and other locals. Bill Howell had the chance to rent it for the weekend of April 1-3, 2011 and he did. We are planning a cruise and dinner on Friday evening. We have rented the lightning track and the skid pad for a fun packed Saturday. Hopefully everyone will get all the laps they can stand, plus some interesting autocross time.


Then on Sunday, for those that can stick around one more day, we will rent go-carts and get more seat time.

Registration is open right now at http://www.pro-touring.com/events/rtts/form.php

Be sure and register soon if you want to attend this first year event.

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Old 02-04-2011, 11:16 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kona5OH View Post
Hey guys, I have a 2011 GT with brembo brakes that I will be taking to a few road courses this year for HPDE's and open track days. I already ordered some Steeda SS lines and have Motul RBF600 ready to go in. I also have Ford Racing brake cooling ducts but I'm really not sure what brake pads to get. I'm going to New Jersey Motorsports Park Lightning track on April 2nd and I'm looking for pads that I can install at my house or job and drive to there, on the track and back home with them on then take them off after I get back home. I live on Long Island, the track is 4 hours away from where I live and I have to go through the New York City area so chances are I will need the brakes to work pretty good on the street. I probably could change the pads at the track but I'd rather not if there's another option. I was thinking about getting Hawk HP Plus pads but I haven't heard too many good things about them. Do you guys have any suggestions?
If you are just starting out HP PLUS pads might work ok at first, but as you get faster and more experienced you will quickly reach the limits of those pads.

You really need to have a more dedicated track pad. Hawk has around 3 different compounds that will all probably work well for what you are doing.

Give us a call if you are interested and we can discuss the tracks that you run to help narrow down a pad choice for you.

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Old 02-05-2011, 10:21 AM   #9
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I am doing my first HPDE next weekend and will switch to Hawk HPS at the track and switch back after the event. I talked to a few folks who are in the American Iron racing series and they all concurred that even in the novice classes, heavy cars like the Mustang with so much HP will just eat through the stock pads.
I will let you know how the HPS did after the event. I was thinking of the track only HP Plus but heard that they screw up your rotors quickly.
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Old 02-05-2011, 04:13 PM   #10
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Never forget about transfer material when switching pads. Transfer occurs when hot pads "transfer" pad material to the disc. A well functioning brake system uses this transfer layer to develop a high coefficient of friction. Good transfer not only helps braking, it will help your discs last longer. Google "brake pad transfer" for loads more about this. Stop tech has a great explanation here: http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...rakedisk.shtml

Dedicated metallic track pads are so abrasive when cold (i.e., on the street) that they clean off any previous transfer material. If you run track pads for long on the street, they will eat through the disc and quickly destroy it.

I learned this the hard way when I switched my BMW M from stock pads to cool carbons for track use. The cool carbon transfer to the stock disc was uneven and the resulting vibration made the car un-driveable on the track. I ended up buying new Performance Friction discs and pads at a cost of $2k. I was not happy. I probably should have bought something like the Hawk HPS plus to clean them off, and then used them for track days. But I was too stupid.

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Old 02-05-2011, 07:38 PM   #11
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HPS and HP+ are not track pads. They are high end street pads that can survive some light track duty - at least HP+ can. DTC60, 70, HT-10 and a few others are Hawk's track pads. This is a 3600 lbs car capable of hitting roughly 130 on most tracks with a decent straight - that is a whole lot of vehicle to slow down. IMO HP+ is the minimum and I'd only recommend them for a newer HPDE driver on street tires.
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Old 02-05-2011, 09:44 PM   #12
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Argonaut, you're right, DT60 is Hawk's track pad. My bad.

What does "minimum" mean to you? Do you think the stock pads will fade to the point of failure? A 14" disc and brembo caliper have a lot of heat capacity, and dot 4 fluid boils at a very high temp. With fresh fluid and proper bleeding I think the GT brembo setup is a good start for most track day guys. But you need to be sensitive, if you feel the brake pedal soften you have to have the sense to back off.

I'm an old fart, well past my prime, and I don't go 10/10ths any more. I still end up quicker than 90% of the people at the track, in an unmodified car. And it doesn't matter. If the slowest guy out there has more fun than me, he wins.
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Old 02-06-2011, 08:37 AM   #13
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Argonaut, you're right, DT60 is Hawk's track pad. My bad.

What does "minimum" mean to you? Do you think the stock pads will fade to the point of failure? A 14" disc and brembo caliper have a lot of heat capacity, and dot 4 fluid boils at a very high temp. With fresh fluid and proper bleeding I think the GT brembo setup is a good start for most track day guys. But you need to be sensitive, if you feel the brake pedal soften you have to have the sense to back off.

I'm an old fart, well past my prime, and I don't go 10/10ths any more. I still end up quicker than 90% of the people at the track, in an unmodified car. And it doesn't matter. If the slowest guy out there has more fun than me, he wins.
Well said.

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Old 02-06-2011, 10:03 AM   #14
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HPS and HP+ are not track pads. They are high end street pads that can survive some light track duty - at least HP+ can. DTC60, 70, HT-10 and a few others are Hawk's track pads. This is a 3600 lbs car capable of hitting roughly 130 on most tracks with a decent straight - that is a whole lot of vehicle to slow down. IMO HP+ is the minimum and I'd only recommend them for a newer HPDE driver on street tires.
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Originally Posted by Ansibe View Post
Never forget about transfer material when switching pads. Transfer occurs when hot pads "transfer" pad material to the disc. A well functioning brake system uses this transfer layer to develop a high coefficient of friction. Good transfer not only helps braking, it will help your discs last longer. Google "brake pad transfer" for loads more about this. Stop tech has a great explanation here: http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...rakedisk.shtml

Dedicated metallic track pads are so abrasive when cold (i.e., on the street) that they clean off any previous transfer material. If you run track pads for long on the street, they will eat through the disc and quickly destroy it.

I learned this the hard way when I switched my BMW M from stock pads to cool carbons for track use. The cool carbon transfer to the stock disc was uneven and the resulting vibration made the car un-driveable on the track. I ended up buying new Performance Friction discs and pads at a cost of $2k. I was not happy. I probably should have bought something like the Hawk HPS plus to clean them off, and then used them for track days. But I was too stupid.

A smart man learns from his mistakes. A really smart man learns from the mistakes of others. Here's your chance to learn from my mistake.
Thank you both for your insight and guidance. I heard that the track pads can really mess up your rotors and it is a good idea to have dedicated track rotors and pads. Thats why I went with the high end street/track (as Hawk classifies it) HPS instead of the HP +. What are your thoughts? I have a week before my HPDE 1 event.
Again, thanks for sharing your knowledge with a track noob
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Old 02-06-2011, 04:13 PM   #15
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Thank you both for your insight and guidance. I heard that the track pads can really mess up your rotors and it is a good idea to have dedicated track rotors and pads. Thats why I went with the high end street/track (as Hawk classifies it) HPS instead of the HP +. What are your thoughts? I have a week before my HPDE 1 event.
Again, thanks for sharing your knowledge with a track noob
With one week left, its unlikely you have time to do anything, unless you have a performance shop nearby that stocks track pads. If you did have the time, my recommendation would be to buy a set of HT-10 for the front and HP+ for the rear (or HT-10 on rear would work also). The HT-10 is one of those pads which doesn't care much about previous transfer layer. It is abrasive and with a good bedding will scrape old material off (in fact if you bed them at night you can see sparks fly, its kind-of cool). Its a good pad to swap between street and track. So, just put them on a day or two before an event and bed them in with some good hard stops from speed. Then just drive them to the track and swap back to the street pad afterwards. Dont' worry about your rotors. Its true that track pads are abrasive, especially when cold (below their operating temp range), but if you go to many track events you will crack your rotors long before they wear thin. One good hard day on the track will cause spider cracks. Each subsequent day will spread the cracks until they crack clean thru. Typically, an intermediate to advanced driver will only get 5-8 days out of a set of OE quality rotors (some less, some more) before throwing them away.

Assuming you don't have time to buy a set, sounds like you will going to a DE with the HPS. So be it. They will work and you may not fade them at all - it really depends on you. I know a guy who drives a C6 Vette and is pretty quick. One day at Summit Point he completely used up his track pads - so he swapped in his street pads and went out for the afternoon sessions. He said it wasn't good but the car still stopped and he was still fast, he just took it down a couple notches.

What about your brake fluid? You need DOT 4 fluid for track work. Stock fluid is DOT 3, it has a lower boiling point. You need DOT 4 fluid to survive the high temps seen on the track. Here again you may or may not have problems depending on how fast you are going and how hard you need to brake for turn-in. If you start feeling a mushy pedal its probably your brake fluid boiling.
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Old 02-09-2011, 09:14 AM   #16
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Default Porterfield R4's?

I was curious if anyone had run the Porterfield R4's. I run these on my previous track car, a gutted and modded 1993 SHO (250hp, 3000lbs, on RA1s). I would drive them to and from the track as well (Usually Gingerman). They squeal when cold, but I love the performance when it's hot. With a 13" front rotor and dual piston calipers up front I could late brake everyone.

I got an 07 GT last fall and plan to do some HPDE events with it and have been contemplating pads. I know HP10's are generally the standard I see discussed, but I've been very pleased with my R4's to date. I've not had the new car to the track... yet.
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Old 06-13-2011, 09:26 PM   #17
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Did you end up going with the Hawk Pads? I'm starting to get into HPDE events myself and I was planning on getting those, but I wanted to know what your experience was like.
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Old 06-14-2011, 06:24 AM   #18
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OP has been MIA for a couple of months. Try sending him a PM.

What I can tell you is that his timed laps out on the big track were consistent at about mid-pack (which may or may not have been enough to work the brakes hard with the weather being relatively cool), and that he put down some very impressive runs on the autocross course (which wasn't at all hard on the brakes except for getting slowed down after crossing the finish). RTTS Results


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Old 06-14-2011, 09:06 AM   #19
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Did you end up going with the Hawk Pads? I'm starting to get into HPDE events myself and I was planning on getting those, but I wanted to know what your experience was like.
Hi GS11, I did use the HPS at Infineon back in February and they worked flawlessly. Infineon is a rather twisty course with only 3 straights (2 short, 1 long) so lots of quick accelerations and full braking. The pads had a lots of material remaining for my next track day next month.
Here are a couple of pics:

Click the image to open in full size.]

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Old 06-15-2011, 08:10 AM   #20
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Thanks for getting back to me. Nice car by the way. I think I will go with the HPs after all
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Old 06-15-2011, 08:10 AM
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