Go Back   MustangForums.com > Ford Mustang Tech > 2005 - 2014 Mustangs > S197 Handling Section
Sign in using an external account
Register Forgot Password?
Search


S197 Handling Section For everything suspension related, inlcuding brakes, tires, and wheels.

Welcome to Mustang Forums!
Welcome to Mustang Forums.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!


Eibach Sportlines on 10+ stang

Reply
 
 
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-21-2011, 11:38 PM   #1
Crazyjoker77
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Vehicle: 2012 V6 pony package
Location: Canada, AB
Posts: 47
Default Eibach Sportlines on 10+ stang

So just picked up my new 12 stang v6 and would like to lower it. I've ran sportlines on my previous vehicle and love the way they perform and look so I'm looking into them.

On my other car a camber kit was required to correct. Is the factory equipment going to allow me to come close to factory camber/toe specs? I don't see anything available on American muscle so I'm assuming the spring is all I will need to lower my car?
This ad is not displayed to registered or logged-in members.
Register your free account today and become a member on Mustang Forums!
Crazyjoker77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2011, 07:55 AM   #2
Truckbutt
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Vehicle: 2011 Mustang GT
Location: Crooklyn, NY
Posts: 83
Default

If you are doing about a 1 inch drop, most people will say that you don't need new caster/camber plates. Some will say that you do. I don't know about the 12's but lowering springs on the 11's require the GT500 strut mounts. In addition, if you are putting in lowering springs you should consider changing your factory struts/shocks. The lower stance results in less travel and will quickly wear out the factory struts/shocks.
Truckbutt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2011, 10:54 AM   #3
scottybaccus
2nd Gear Member
 
scottybaccus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Vehicle: 2011 Ford Mustang
Location: Texas
Posts: 486
scottybaccus
Default

I put the sportlines on my '11 V6 a couple of weeks ago. Single best money I've spent on any car in recent history.

My car did not require any changes, though I do need to measure the camber to be sure. I also want to look at the panhard bar to see if there is any concern there. Driving wise, zero complaints.

Here is what it looks like:
Click the image to open in full size.
scottybaccus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2011, 10:59 AM   #4
scottybaccus
2nd Gear Member
 
scottybaccus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Vehicle: 2011 Ford Mustang
Location: Texas
Posts: 486
scottybaccus
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truckbutt View Post
if you are putting in lowering springs you should consider changing your factory struts/shocks. The lower stance results in less travel and will quickly wear out the factory struts/shocks.
Not sure I agree with this. As far as I know, none of the upgraded shocks and struts permit any more or less travel than the stock dampers. Aside from trimming 5/8" off the rear bump stop, travel hasn't changed on my car. It just starts from a different place, and of course there is a lesser degree of travel on the firmer springs. Even the shorter bump stop in the rear doesn't approach the limits of the rear shocks and Ford even sells the same setup in the SVT line.

The real reason to change the dampers is better damping. The stockers are comfy on the street, but I can tell they would be soft for serious track use.
scottybaccus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2011, 12:10 PM   #5
Sam Strano
Sponsor
 
Sam Strano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,924
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by scottybaccus View Post
Not sure I agree with this. As far as I know, none of the upgraded shocks and struts permit any more or less travel than the stock dampers. Aside from trimming 5/8" off the rear bump stop, travel hasn't changed on my car. It just starts from a different place, and of course there is a lesser degree of travel on the firmer springs. Even the shorter bump stop in the rear doesn't approach the limits of the rear shocks and Ford even sells the same setup in the SVT line.

The real reason to change the dampers is better damping. The stockers are comfy on the street, but I can tell they would be soft for serious track use.
Then you don't quite understand how dampers work in relation to the springs. Shocks are valved to control energy. When you put stiffer springs on a car and then compress them, they store more energy. Then shocks need travel to work, as they dissipate that energy by dragging a piston through oil. Shorter springs lower the car, shortening the effective range of motion of the dampers.

Now, consider that stock dampers are "meant" for stock springs... and aren't all that good to start with (see the folks that rave about the change after putting on a quality damper like a Koni vs. stock).

The stock shocks aren't all that comfy to me, in fact they tend to exhibit more impact harshness than high end performance dampers.
__________________
Strano Performance Parts
www.stranoparts.com
814-849-3450
7x SCCA Solo National Champion
Sam Strano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2011, 07:28 PM   #6
Crazyjoker77
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Vehicle: 2012 V6 pony package
Location: Canada, AB
Posts: 47
Default

So I can get away with ordering the springs and nothing else? I will get some struts later on down the road but would like to get some use out of the stock stuff before I bin them but the car HAS to be lower.

Scotty - you haven't gotten an alignment after the spring install? doeskin it mess with camber I come from the import world and really only have experience with wishbone/McPherson/multilink suspension setups and any time I've done spring install the alignment was way out after.
Crazyjoker77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2011, 08:08 PM   #7
Norm Peterson
6th Gear Member
 
Norm Peterson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Vehicle: 2008 GT Premium
Location: state of confusion
Posts: 6,926
Default

Lowering the car WILL affect the Mustang's front camber just like it does with any import. Scotty doesn't know where his cambers are, or where they were before the lowering.

How much depends on the amount lowered - figure on camber going about 0.6° to 0.7° more negative for every inch you lower the front end. If you measure it now, and know about how much the car will be lowered, you'll have some idea where the cambers will end up (no, you don't need a $$$$$ alignment rack to do this).


Norm
__________________
'08 GT coupe, 5M, suspension unstockish (mine)
'10 Legacy 2.5GT, 6M (hers)
'01 Maxima 20AE, 5M (spare, winter driver)

Gone but not forgotten dep't: '95 Mazda 626, V6/5M; '79 Chevy Malibu, 4M/5M; '87 Maxima, 5M; '72 Ford Pinto, 4M; '64 Dodge V8/3A . . .

Norm Peterson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2011, 09:30 PM   #8
scottybaccus
2nd Gear Member
 
scottybaccus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Vehicle: 2011 Ford Mustang
Location: Texas
Posts: 486
scottybaccus
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Strano View Post
Then you don't quite understand how dampers work in relation to the springs. .
Oh, I know how they work and there's no arguing your tech. In the world of daily driving, though, there is no standard enviroment. You may live on race track smooth suburban streets and I might live on poorly maintained county farm roads. How will we ever know if there wear prematurely?

In a lab enviroment under controlled circumstances, you win. In the first 30k miles on public roads, I doubt there is much difference.

I agree that the stockers aren't that great, but MUST be changed? No.
scottybaccus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2011, 09:36 PM   #9
scottybaccus
2nd Gear Member
 
scottybaccus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Vehicle: 2011 Ford Mustang
Location: Texas
Posts: 486
scottybaccus
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm Peterson View Post
Lowering the car WILL affect the Mustang's front camber just like it does with any import. Scotty doesn't know where his cambers are, or where they were before the lowering.

How much depends on the amount lowered - figure on camber going about 0.6° to 0.7° more negative for every inch you lower the front end. If you measure it now, and know about how much the car will be lowered, you'll have some idea where the cambers will end up (no, you don't need a $$$$$ alignment rack to do this).


Norm
Norm's correct. I didn't measure before or after, but may someday.

Here's what I do know. The 2011 strut is not camber adjustable out of the box. Caster/camber plates and/or camber bolts are needed to make any changes. I also know that Eibach expressly states that Sportline springs can run at stock settings, though they offer some recommendations.

MUST you change alignment settings? Generally, no. It depends on the car, springs, other mods, usage, etc. My car, public roads, it wasn't necessary. Could I benefit from specific changes? Maybe. It depends on usage.

When you get really particular about alignment, meaning more than that general window that pretty much every OE car operates in, you are tuning for a specific enviroment. Alignment settings for autocross will be much different from those used at Talledaga. For public roads (meaning highly variable, never known for certain) OE settings work OK. If I was Mr. Strano, I would probably want more.
scottybaccus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2011, 12:17 AM   #10
Crazyjoker77
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Vehicle: 2012 V6 pony package
Location: Canada, AB
Posts: 47
Default

Theres no adjustment at all on the stock setup? Are camber (crash) bolts available I tried searching and can only find the top camber mounts for 300$+

So I can just order the sportlines springs by themselves, throw them in and not worry. I know when I put sportlines in my friends 2.5rs impreza the camber changed drastically and was going through tires insanely fast and was rubbing untill we got the camber corrected with crash bolts
Crazyjoker77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2011, 06:12 AM   #11
Norm Peterson
6th Gear Member
 
Norm Peterson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Vehicle: 2008 GT Premium
Location: state of confusion
Posts: 6,926
Default

It's not at all clear what Eibach is trying to say with "Sportline springs can run at stock settings". But since they can be expected to lower the car by 1.5" or a little more, you can expect your cambers to be pushed at least 1° more negative.

So let's say that your particular car actually sits with the cambers at -0.8° right now (entirely possible, since the preferred setting is -0.75°). Another degree negative from the Sportline lowering is -1.8°, which is not only a very aggressive setting for street driving - it's 0.3° outside Ford's spec (which ends at -1.5°).

If you insist on running that much camber, at that point you pretty much HAVE TO drive the corners with more "enthusiasm" than most people you'll ever meet. On a consistent basis too, probably meaning more half the total number of corners you encounter. Taking one or two hard corners a week isn't going to be nearly enough.

I will not ever recommend the use of crash bolts except in extremely unusual and very temporary cases. New installations do not qualify under that exception, period. Spend the $300 - compared to your neck and the rest of the car and its mods, that's not even pocket change. If you don't have that last $300 in hand now, hold everything off until you do and can do it right.

Long story short on the bolts - they are smaller bolts that are not supposed to be tightened to anywhere near what the regular bolts are spec'ed to. You cannot develop the same clamping load with crash bolts at ~75 ft-lbs installation torque when the factory torque spec for the regular strut to knuckle bolts is over 160 ft-lbs. It's that clamping load and the friction developed from that clamping load that keeps the parts held firmly together and holds the alignment that was set.


Norm
__________________
'08 GT coupe, 5M, suspension unstockish (mine)
'10 Legacy 2.5GT, 6M (hers)
'01 Maxima 20AE, 5M (spare, winter driver)

Gone but not forgotten dep't: '95 Mazda 626, V6/5M; '79 Chevy Malibu, 4M/5M; '87 Maxima, 5M; '72 Ford Pinto, 4M; '64 Dodge V8/3A . . .


Last edited by Norm Peterson; 06-23-2011 at 06:22 AM.
Norm Peterson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2011, 07:13 AM   #12
06 Black Beauty
2nd Gear Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Vehicle: 2009 Ford Mustang GT
Location: Maryland
Posts: 390
Default

Ok so here is my question for everyone. I don't understand all of the suspension ins and outs but I've read a lot of threads on this subject. Something I almost never hear about is adjusting the Pinion angle and having to to get an adjustable upper or lower control arms. Everyone always mentions the camber and struts/shocks but I never hear about the other. So how important is it? the adjustable rear controls arms either upper or lower is needed for the adjustment of the pinion angle. Does this depend on the amount of lowering if it is needed or not. I've been thinking about lowering my car but it seems to do it right you need to buy more than just springs and camber plates and for some new struts/shocks.
__________________
09 GT Black on Black-5spd-JLT CAI-93 tune-Hurst-18x9.5 Chrome GT500-Nitto's-BMR LCA's-GT500 Wing-Shorty Antenna-tint and assorted other goodies
06 Black Beauty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2011, 08:52 AM   #13
Sam Strano
Sponsor
 
Sam Strano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,924
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by scottybaccus View Post
Oh, I know how they work and there's no arguing your tech. In the world of daily driving, though, there is no standard enviroment. You may live on race track smooth suburban streets and I might live on poorly maintained county farm roads. How will we ever know if there wear prematurely?

In a lab enviroment under controlled circumstances, you win. In the first 30k miles on public roads, I doubt there is much difference.

I agree that the stockers aren't that great, but MUST be changed? No.
Nothing MUST be changed. You could drive a bone stock car forever. How do you want to split the hair? The stock dampers are poor from the get go. Put better dampers on a car with stock springs and it's better. It's just that much better again when you then add lowering springs to the mix.

Also, how smooth the streets are has no bearing on the the damper being able to control the mass of the car and keep it settled down. My '07 on Koni's rode WAY better than my ex-girlfriend's car on stock dampers (all else was stock, springs, bars, etc.). It pissed her off to know end, but she didn't have the money for the Koni's.
__________________
Strano Performance Parts
www.stranoparts.com
814-849-3450
7x SCCA Solo National Champion
Sam Strano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2011, 09:23 AM   #14
Norm Peterson
6th Gear Member
 
Norm Peterson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Vehicle: 2008 GT Premium
Location: state of confusion
Posts: 6,926
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 06 Black Beauty View Post
Ok so here is my question for everyone. I don't understand all of the suspension ins and outs but I've read a lot of threads on this subject. Something I almost never hear about is adjusting the Pinion angle and having to to get an adjustable upper or lower control arms. Everyone always mentions the camber and struts/shocks but I never hear about the other.
Pinion angle is mostly a dragstrip thing, so you aren't going to hear very much about pinion angle in any cornering and handling oriented forum.

What I know about it is that you use it to offset the amount of LCA and UCA bushing compression that happens under heavy acceleration, with the idea being to minimize the drivetrain losses through the U-joints by keeping them from operating at large angles. So it's mostly a WOT 1st & 2nd gear "fix" for bushings that are far less than rigid. Roughly, as you go from softer bushings to firmer bushings such as polyurethane to solid sphericals, your pinion angle requirements shift. Ditto as you stiffen up the overall combination in mixed bushing combinations (i.e. from OE upper/poly LCAs to all poly, or to OE upper with spherical LCAs).


Quote:
So how important is it? the adjustable rear controls arms either upper or lower is needed for the adjustment of the pinion angle. Does this depend on the amount of lowering if it is needed or not. I've been thinking about lowering my car but it seems to do it right you need to buy more than just springs and camber plates and for some new struts/shocks.
In a street-driven, or autocrossed or road course raced or open-tracked car it's not particularly important as long as you aren't getting vibrations and the U-joint angles are reasonable. It's only at the dragstrip where the results might justify tinkering any more than getting it close.

A severely lowered car (Sportlines and lower), or a car that has had a different transmission installed (which moves the front U-joint point and changes the U-joint angles) are the street-driver situations where some pinion angle work is most likely to matter enough to be worth the bother. And I would expect some cars to need tweaking while others might not.


Norm
__________________
'08 GT coupe, 5M, suspension unstockish (mine)
'10 Legacy 2.5GT, 6M (hers)
'01 Maxima 20AE, 5M (spare, winter driver)

Gone but not forgotten dep't: '95 Mazda 626, V6/5M; '79 Chevy Malibu, 4M/5M; '87 Maxima, 5M; '72 Ford Pinto, 4M; '64 Dodge V8/3A . . .


Last edited by Norm Peterson; 06-23-2011 at 09:32 AM.
Norm Peterson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2011, 09:35 AM   #15
Hamhole
1st Gear Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Vehicle: 2010 Mustang GT
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 131
Default

When you change any one thing, you can disrupt the balance Ford designed into the car.

For me, when I lowered my 2010 GT with Eibach Pro Street-S coilovers, the car was not "right" until I also added an adjustable Panhard rod, stiffer sway bars, a bumpsteer kit, replacement lower control arms and LCA relocation brackets.

The Panhard rod and sway bars went in the same time as the coilovers. After months of driving, I was inclined to add the remaining parts and now I am happy with the ride.
__________________
Candy Red 2010 Mustang GT / Edelbrock E-force Supercharger & Tower Strut Brace / Eibach Pro Street-S Coilovers / Hotchkis Front & Rear Sway Bars & Adj. Panhard Bar / Magnaflow Magnapack Cat-back Exhaust / BBK Catted X-pipe / Auto Meter Nexus Gauges / Speed of Sound Triple A-pillar Gauge Pod / Grabber Pony Shift **** / Shelby Kicker Audio Upgrade / Competition Engineering Adj. LCA / Lakewood LCA Relocation Bkts. / Steeda Bumpsteer Kit / Ford Racing Boss 302S Wheels / Baer Pro Plus 14 6P Brakes
Hamhole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2011, 09:42 AM   #16
06 Black Beauty
2nd Gear Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Vehicle: 2009 Ford Mustang GT
Location: Maryland
Posts: 390
Default

Thanks Norm for a perfect explanation of this. I have taken my car to the strip but just once or twice to try it (very fun) but my car is a daily driver. So basically what i have gathered from your post is I basically don't need to worry about it and just getting new springs with camber plates and struts/shocks should be fine. I'm mostly going for the appearance side of lowering the car knowing I will achive better handling also. I have changed the lca's to spohn non adjustable and have plans on doing other pieces down the road. i'm only looking to drop it 1-1.5 at most.
__________________
09 GT Black on Black-5spd-JLT CAI-93 tune-Hurst-18x9.5 Chrome GT500-Nitto's-BMR LCA's-GT500 Wing-Shorty Antenna-tint and assorted other goodies
06 Black Beauty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2011, 01:21 PM   #17
scottybaccus
2nd Gear Member
 
scottybaccus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Vehicle: 2011 Ford Mustang
Location: Texas
Posts: 486
scottybaccus
Default

The 2011 Ford service manual details the use of "crash" bolts as part of the procedure. It's called a cam bolt by Ford. It does get torqued to 166 Lb/ft.

The procedure calls for removing the lower bolt and gringing the hole in the strut larger on the front and back sides. There are markings on the strut to show you how much to grind. Then you reassemble the strut to the spindle using the original bolt in the top hole and the cam bolt in the lower. Snug these up enough to allow adjustments using the cam bolt with the wheels back on the car, then fully torque both the original upper bolt and the cam bolt to 166 lb/ft.

This is pretty standard process on any strut suspension. The only risk I see is inferior aftermarket parts, so buy the cam bolts from Ford. Another might be an undersized cam bolt that might permit a wider range of adjustment. I don't see much value in that approach when a little more griding can yield the same results with better fasteners.

One thing to note in the whole camber adjustment discussion, Ford sells lowered springs and only recommends replacement of the upper strut mount for "improved" performance. I suspect they build extra camber into these mounts, but the final check and possible adjustment with cam bolts would be SOP on any car using any parts.
scottybaccus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2011, 01:32 PM   #18
Sam Strano
Sponsor
 
Sam Strano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,924
Default

And those bolts are about $100... and a big pain to put in. I know I've done it because that's how we get our camber on stock category autocross cars. The 166 spec is a function of the a bolt change when Ford discovered that folks like me were slipping the previous bolt design (and fwiw 166 isn't enough for anyone autocrossing either).

Now, that's the Ford Bolt. Aftermarket bolts don't require the filing/grinding... because they are much smaller. For instance Eibach's are to be torqued to 77 foot/lbs. which isn't nearly enough but they can't take 3 times that amount like the Ford bolts do.

Which is why I recommend stepping up to something like a Steeda HD mount. Yep, they cost more, but they don't slip. And they are easier to adjust. And they get rid of a known issue the Ford mounts have too.

And no, Ford does not sell any special mounts with camber adjustment or change built in. The GT500 mount simply uses harder rubber---which isn't any real help. And what's more they don't change the design and so the failure point is still there, just like a normal GT or V-6 mount.
__________________
Strano Performance Parts
www.stranoparts.com
814-849-3450
7x SCCA Solo National Champion
Sam Strano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2011, 02:16 PM   #19
scottybaccus
2nd Gear Member
 
scottybaccus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Vehicle: 2011 Ford Mustang
Location: Texas
Posts: 486
scottybaccus
Default

Sam,


Do the Steeda plates allow all camber adjustment at the top plate without any modification at the spindle? Seems logical to me.
scottybaccus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2011, 02:39 PM   #20
Sam Strano
Sponsor
 
Sam Strano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,924
Default

Yes, they adjust on top.
__________________
Strano Performance Parts
www.stranoparts.com
814-849-3450
7x SCCA Solo National Champion
Sam Strano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2011, 02:39 PM
MustangForums
Ford Mustang




Paid Advertisement

 
 
 
Reply

Tags
2011, 600, adjustable, bolts, bump, camber, eibach, forums, gt, mustang, sale, speed, sportline, sportlines, tko

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Forum Jump

Advertising

Featured Sponsors
Vendor Directory
New Sponsors
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:52 AM.

© Internet Brands, Inc.


This forum is owned and operated by Internet Brands, Inc., a Delaware corporation. It is not authorized or endorsed by the Ford Motor Company and is not affiliated with the Ford Motor Company or its related companies in any way. Ford® is a registered trademark of the Ford Motor Company
Emails Backup