Lowering 2011 GT
08-07-2011, 05:36 PM
#11
Norm, I don't disagree with the reason to swap dampers. I just don't believe it is absolutely necessary on a new car. Eibach has a major engineering effort bringing us good quality parts. They detail that no change is needed in either front or rear dampers and only provide a shorter secondary spring (bump stop) to provise for added travel from the lower static position.
I have 5000 miles now on springs alone. I have had zero issues with my alignment or the dampers hitting the end of their stroke. I do drive the crap outta my car, actually beyond the capability of the tires in most instances, not the dampers. Do I think I could benefit from an upgrade? Yes! But not till I get a few more miles outta the stockers. When they start going away, I'll pony up the bucks. Right now, they are performing nicely in street duty.
I did make one change today. I mentioned above that I find the rear bump stop routinely with my kids in the car. (they're both nearly grown and 340 lbs. together) I added 1/2" space on the top side of the rear coils. This took the stance from level to barely nose down and is unnoticeable unless you look for it. The ride is virtually the same, but I am no longer finding the stops on the worst bumps in my area and the kids are much happier.
Oh and Norm, I've been modding cars for 25 years, fabbing race car and hotrod chassis for 12 years and designing systems from scratch for most of that. I just don't see any difference between the range of travel on the OE dampers and the aftermarket. This is a car that really was designed to be Shelby or BOSS race track low, or OE base model high without major changes in suspension design. Damping rates and heat dissipation aside, the dampers are interchangeable for the lower ride height.
You and I have debated this before. I've tried it with and without new dampers. You just said that you have never kept the stockers in 40 years. I may only have 5000 miles on you, but I do have that experience that you don't. To each his own. I stand by my remarks that swapping them is optional.
I have 5000 miles now on springs alone. I have had zero issues with my alignment or the dampers hitting the end of their stroke. I do drive the crap outta my car, actually beyond the capability of the tires in most instances, not the dampers. Do I think I could benefit from an upgrade? Yes! But not till I get a few more miles outta the stockers. When they start going away, I'll pony up the bucks. Right now, they are performing nicely in street duty.
I did make one change today. I mentioned above that I find the rear bump stop routinely with my kids in the car. (they're both nearly grown and 340 lbs. together) I added 1/2" space on the top side of the rear coils. This took the stance from level to barely nose down and is unnoticeable unless you look for it. The ride is virtually the same, but I am no longer finding the stops on the worst bumps in my area and the kids are much happier.
Oh and Norm, I've been modding cars for 25 years, fabbing race car and hotrod chassis for 12 years and designing systems from scratch for most of that. I just don't see any difference between the range of travel on the OE dampers and the aftermarket. This is a car that really was designed to be Shelby or BOSS race track low, or OE base model high without major changes in suspension design. Damping rates and heat dissipation aside, the dampers are interchangeable for the lower ride height.
You and I have debated this before. I've tried it with and without new dampers. You just said that you have never kept the stockers in 40 years. I may only have 5000 miles on you, but I do have that experience that you don't. To each his own. I stand by my remarks that swapping them is optional.
08-07-2011, 06:57 PM
#12
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Join Date: Feb 2007
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If Ford was starting from scratch with stiffer and lower springs, it would be highly unlikely that they would specify the same damping curves as they do for their current and/or previous S197 springs. There's more than just the capability of working with the range of ride heights that matters.
If anything, when you stiffen the springs without upgrading the dampers the ride/handling compromise will shift toward ride quality, assuming that it's anywhere in the range between "best ride" and "best grip" to begin with (it's a percent critical damping thing). Moving closer to best ride quality probably is a good enough result to make most folks happy.
FWIW, you can actually feel differences in grip - not just ride quality - in back to back driving with different settings on adjustable dampers. Set soft, the car feels a little bit "slide-y" in comparison to a stiffer setting. Some may actively prefer the grip with the softer sort of feel, most probably don't notice because you have to be up at or above half a lateral g and paying attention to feel it.
I never said I never drove with any of my cars on the stock dampers, only that the dampers got changed either with or before the springs did. My '08 GT kept the rear shocks for 11,500 miles or so, and the fronts for another 5,000 due to a lengthy national backorder problem.
Norm
If anything, when you stiffen the springs without upgrading the dampers the ride/handling compromise will shift toward ride quality, assuming that it's anywhere in the range between "best ride" and "best grip" to begin with (it's a percent critical damping thing). Moving closer to best ride quality probably is a good enough result to make most folks happy.
FWIW, you can actually feel differences in grip - not just ride quality - in back to back driving with different settings on adjustable dampers. Set soft, the car feels a little bit "slide-y" in comparison to a stiffer setting. Some may actively prefer the grip with the softer sort of feel, most probably don't notice because you have to be up at or above half a lateral g and paying attention to feel it.
I never said I never drove with any of my cars on the stock dampers, only that the dampers got changed either with or before the springs did. My '08 GT kept the rear shocks for 11,500 miles or so, and the fronts for another 5,000 due to a lengthy national backorder problem.
Norm
Last edited by Norm Peterson; 08-07-2011 at 07:01 PM.
08-07-2011, 07:14 PM
#13
LOL, I hear ya.
Again, I don't disagree with the virtues of the upgrade, just the absolute need. I think for me, you must first have a specific set of conditions to get that specific in tuning. Public roads vary too much to say you are optimized all the time. I'll wear out what I have before spending the cash to be out of tune half the time.
Again, I don't disagree with the virtues of the upgrade, just the absolute need. I think for me, you must first have a specific set of conditions to get that specific in tuning. Public roads vary too much to say you are optimized all the time. I'll wear out what I have before spending the cash to be out of tune half the time.
08-08-2011, 11:44 AM
#14
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There is a serious issue here with folks understanding that what they say, right, wrong, or indifferent, is seen by a lot of people--many of whom take is gospel.
Let me lay one thing to rest right now, because I hear it *EVERY DAY* and it drives me insane. Dampers damp mass, that mass is the same on the street as it is when I autocross, or track a car. And in fact you might well see more ripped up roads on the street which work the suspension *HARDER*. The whole idea that "I don't race" is a cop-out of epic proportions. Neither do most folks who say, by M3's.... but they like how they drive. The fact that many of who do compete run good shocks isn't because they are racing shocks.... it's because we tend to like cars that drive well. If you aren't one of those, fine and fair enough.
Also, for those that haven't changed dampers to say "it's fine" is pretty ignorant. Fine compared to what? What you had before? How you can compare if you haven't done the upgrade? Hell, folks see a different moving from premium damper to premium damper. And the stock Ford stuff--sucks. Maybe some have more tolerance for the level of suck---but I can't think of anyone that has upgraded dampers that didn't think it was *well* worth it. In fact it's the FIRST thing I change as the stock ones aren't great for even the stock springs they were in fact "designed" for.
Scotty---respectfully you kind of throw around that you've been doing this a long time. There are others here that like to say similar things. That's fine, so have I. However, there are issues with you facts. One in fact being that somehow because the chassis is used on "race cars" which are in fact production based that the stock dampers are ok? None of those cars, hell the Boss street car doesn't use the normal OEM dampers. And in the Boss dampers are ok at best, not nearly what you get aftermarket.
There are other issues, such as you not having had issue with bottoming the dampers out. Yeah, that's not anything that would change. The car has bumpstops with stock dampers, and they are used regularly. The aftermarket stuff does too, and in fact are the same length so there is no change there. And dampers do not limit the travel, or give you more. No sir. They change how quickly things move, not how far. And simply physics dictates that when you shorten the amount of available travel you are forcing the dampers to do more work in less space. Then you add more spring rate on top of it, which only makes things more difficult for the dampers. You are dragging a piston through oil. If you have to dissipate even the same energy (let alone more via stiffer springs) in lesser working travel you need more damping forces to get the job done.
Let me lay one thing to rest right now, because I hear it *EVERY DAY* and it drives me insane. Dampers damp mass, that mass is the same on the street as it is when I autocross, or track a car. And in fact you might well see more ripped up roads on the street which work the suspension *HARDER*. The whole idea that "I don't race" is a cop-out of epic proportions. Neither do most folks who say, by M3's.... but they like how they drive. The fact that many of who do compete run good shocks isn't because they are racing shocks.... it's because we tend to like cars that drive well. If you aren't one of those, fine and fair enough.
Also, for those that haven't changed dampers to say "it's fine" is pretty ignorant. Fine compared to what? What you had before? How you can compare if you haven't done the upgrade? Hell, folks see a different moving from premium damper to premium damper. And the stock Ford stuff--sucks. Maybe some have more tolerance for the level of suck---but I can't think of anyone that has upgraded dampers that didn't think it was *well* worth it. In fact it's the FIRST thing I change as the stock ones aren't great for even the stock springs they were in fact "designed" for.
Scotty---respectfully you kind of throw around that you've been doing this a long time. There are others here that like to say similar things. That's fine, so have I. However, there are issues with you facts. One in fact being that somehow because the chassis is used on "race cars" which are in fact production based that the stock dampers are ok? None of those cars, hell the Boss street car doesn't use the normal OEM dampers. And in the Boss dampers are ok at best, not nearly what you get aftermarket.
There are other issues, such as you not having had issue with bottoming the dampers out. Yeah, that's not anything that would change. The car has bumpstops with stock dampers, and they are used regularly. The aftermarket stuff does too, and in fact are the same length so there is no change there. And dampers do not limit the travel, or give you more. No sir. They change how quickly things move, not how far. And simply physics dictates that when you shorten the amount of available travel you are forcing the dampers to do more work in less space. Then you add more spring rate on top of it, which only makes things more difficult for the dampers. You are dragging a piston through oil. If you have to dissipate even the same energy (let alone more via stiffer springs) in lesser working travel you need more damping forces to get the job done.
08-08-2011, 10:36 PM
#16
Sam, I'm just as well informed on the physics. I get it. I build it, install it, yada yada.
The point you pros seem to miss is that the good parts make a world of difference for a skilled driver in a well prepared car in a controlled enviroment.
I am talking about real world street driving. Work, school, road trip, whatever. You can install the best parts and the real world of Houston's concrete freeways with terrible gaps and shifting panels, or a central Tx country road with pavement warped by heavy truck traffic in the heat of summer, or a badly patched small town main street with overlapping pothole repairs, will all make those parts "sub-optimal" too. You just can't argue that anyone MUST upgrade. They might not even have a use for all that "performance". It's a Preference, vs. budget, vs. goals, vs. enviroment equation where no two are alike. You want to tell me that a car primarily about track use really needs better parts than the OE base model? I agree.
My beef is this, EVERY SINGLE time someone asks, there's a "pro" insisting they must spend more money. That just isn't true. You wanna test this, let me pick the road. Your overly sprung, stiffly dampened car will skitter out of the turn right along with mine.
The point you pros seem to miss is that the good parts make a world of difference for a skilled driver in a well prepared car in a controlled enviroment.
I am talking about real world street driving. Work, school, road trip, whatever. You can install the best parts and the real world of Houston's concrete freeways with terrible gaps and shifting panels, or a central Tx country road with pavement warped by heavy truck traffic in the heat of summer, or a badly patched small town main street with overlapping pothole repairs, will all make those parts "sub-optimal" too. You just can't argue that anyone MUST upgrade. They might not even have a use for all that "performance". It's a Preference, vs. budget, vs. goals, vs. enviroment equation where no two are alike. You want to tell me that a car primarily about track use really needs better parts than the OE base model? I agree.
My beef is this, EVERY SINGLE time someone asks, there's a "pro" insisting they must spend more money. That just isn't true. You wanna test this, let me pick the road. Your overly sprung, stiffly dampened car will skitter out of the turn right along with mine.
08-09-2011, 07:41 AM
#17
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: state of confusion
Posts: 7,635
I think we're getting into the matter of just how to identify to a suspension newbie that a relationship between springs and shocks/struts does in fact exist, and how to mention what is available to deal with that should he choose to. I don't know, maybe what's written as suggestion reads as absolute requirement to some. All I can say is that there's only so much that can be done on the 'submit' end, no matter how much time and effort is spent putting a reply together (and in some cases subsequently edited).
When most of the mechanical mods people do to their cars is supposedly with the intent of obtaining greater performance, it's hard for a performance-oriented guy to put the stamp of approval on approaches that represent a reduction in performance from OE. That you can get away with it isn't quite the same thing - you could even downgrade to 75,000 mile old stock dampers and the car would still function as a transportation device.
Yes, I know that there is a segment that only cares about the outward appearance factor and for whom the actual performance is all but irrelevant. I never quite understood that and probably never will.
Norm
When most of the mechanical mods people do to their cars is supposedly with the intent of obtaining greater performance, it's hard for a performance-oriented guy to put the stamp of approval on approaches that represent a reduction in performance from OE. That you can get away with it isn't quite the same thing - you could even downgrade to 75,000 mile old stock dampers and the car would still function as a transportation device.
Yes, I know that there is a segment that only cares about the outward appearance factor and for whom the actual performance is all but irrelevant. I never quite understood that and probably never will.
Norm
Last edited by Norm Peterson; 08-09-2011 at 08:07 AM.
08-09-2011, 08:46 AM
#18
I think you're onto somthing, Norm.
It takes testing and tuning with your routine scenario to identify and resolve opportunity with that enviroment and combination. There is no single answer to be had. Any recipe one might provide was suited to their own combination and enviroment.
It takes testing and tuning with your routine scenario to identify and resolve opportunity with that enviroment and combination. There is no single answer to be had. Any recipe one might provide was suited to their own combination and enviroment.
08-09-2011, 01:03 PM
#20
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Sam, I'm just as well informed on the physics. I get it. I build it, install it, yada yada.
The point you pros seem to miss is that the good parts make a world of difference for a skilled driver in a well prepared car in a controlled enviroment.
I am talking about real world street driving. Work, school, road trip, whatever. You can install the best parts and the real world of Houston's concrete freeways with terrible gaps and shifting panels, or a central Tx country road with pavement warped by heavy truck traffic in the heat of summer, or a badly patched small town main street with overlapping pothole repairs, will all make those parts "sub-optimal" too. You just can't argue that anyone MUST upgrade. They might not even have a use for all that "performance". It's a Preference, vs. budget, vs. goals, vs. enviroment equation where no two are alike. You want to tell me that a car primarily about track use really needs better parts than the OE base model? I agree.
My beef is this, EVERY SINGLE time someone asks, there's a "pro" insisting they must spend more money. That just isn't true. You wanna test this, let me pick the road. Your overly sprung, stiffly dampened car will skitter out of the turn right along with mine.
The point you pros seem to miss is that the good parts make a world of difference for a skilled driver in a well prepared car in a controlled enviroment.
I am talking about real world street driving. Work, school, road trip, whatever. You can install the best parts and the real world of Houston's concrete freeways with terrible gaps and shifting panels, or a central Tx country road with pavement warped by heavy truck traffic in the heat of summer, or a badly patched small town main street with overlapping pothole repairs, will all make those parts "sub-optimal" too. You just can't argue that anyone MUST upgrade. They might not even have a use for all that "performance". It's a Preference, vs. budget, vs. goals, vs. enviroment equation where no two are alike. You want to tell me that a car primarily about track use really needs better parts than the OE base model? I agree.
My beef is this, EVERY SINGLE time someone asks, there's a "pro" insisting they must spend more money. That just isn't true. You wanna test this, let me pick the road. Your overly sprung, stiffly dampened car will skitter out of the turn right along with mine.
I'm here to help, and I gotta tell you it pisses me off beyond words when I hear that I'm hear to push parts on people without caring about the result. If you knew anything about me, you know I've got this reputation for talking folks OUT of things they don't need. I'm honest, to a fault sometimes.... and I call things the way I see them.
I'm sorry that parts are not free, that they cost money to buy. And I'm sorry that there are times we want to change parts to get a result. I guess I'm guilty of not really giving a crap since I happen to make my living doing setups and selling *appropriate* parts. Sad. I really don't think that makes me a bad person, and moreover it doesn't make me wrong.
Let me sum it up. If you guys reading this ask anyone who's upgraded dampers whether or not it was worth it, you'll find about 99.8% saying "hell yes". It's easy to say it's not worth it when you yourself haven't done it. This happens all the time, and it's a little frustrating. And fwiw, most of those folks I spoke of above, most of them aren't "pro's" or "racer's" either.