Steeda Sports and Koni STR.T installed
04-16-2012, 11:45 PM
#21
well i just bought the j&m panhard bar, just to make sure its center, while i agree the watts link its the best way to go , for my daily driver im happy to pay a 100 bucks just to center my rear end nothing else. it all comes down to what you want out of yuor car, or how much you want to spend
04-17-2012, 03:04 PM
#24
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: ga
Posts: 478
yep thats it in a nut shell, i say if you see track time, or drive agressive then go watts, if not im sure we have all waste money on a mod before, i know i have 100 doesnt go that far these days, makes me miss fox
04-30-2012, 08:29 PM
#28
Not sure where all this anti-panhard bar stuff came from, but plenty of racing Mustangs have had success using a PHB setup. Have any of you actually driven your Mustang in anger in autocross or on the track and had issues? Its true the Watts link is a more elegent and symmetrical solution to laterally locating the axle, but you'd have to be a pretty experienced and skilled driver for it to make a difference. The slight movement due to the arc of the PHB and the change in roll center isn't going to cause any dangerous tendencies. The watts link setups out there now are also heavier FWIW. The Vorshlag guys have been building a 2011 autocross racer for STX (now ESP) and they're still rockin' the PHB and doing quite well.
04-30-2012, 10:24 PM
#29
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 163
Not sure where all this anti-panhard bar stuff came from, but plenty of racing Mustangs have had success using a PHB setup. Have any of you actually driven your Mustang in anger in autocross or on the track and had issues? Its true the Watts link is a more elegent and symmetrical solution to laterally locating the axle, but you'd have to be a pretty experienced and skilled driver for it to make a difference. The slight movement due to the arc of the PHB and the change in roll center isn't going to cause any dangerous tendencies. The watts link setups out there now are also heavier FWIW. The Vorshlag guys have been building a 2011 autocross racer for STX (now ESP) and they're still rockin' the PHB and doing quite well.
A lot of "successful" race cars with PHB's also run pretty high spring rates. I think the FR500's come with 300 lb/in rear rates which isn't "stiff" compared to what some IRS guys are using but it's stiff enough to minimize rear suspension movement which eliminates the whole arc nonsense anyway and keeps the roll center variation pretty small. On a street driven car with soft (but stiffer than stock) lowering springs you are going to see quite a bit of movement over bumps and the PHB just doesn't inspire the same confidence that the watts does.
That is my very limited experience... I literally have 2 autocross events on the watts link and the set up and venue changed between both so it's hardly conclusive, I did have 24k miles of street driving and 9 autocross events last year on the factory suspension.
As for the weight, the weight is all sprung weight and it isn't much over the factory PHB. My box with my watts weighed 31lbs, so that's like 28lbs for the whole watts? You are removing the PHB brace and PHB from the equation and the unsprung weight is about the same. Well worth any added weight over the rear axle for the much lower roll center and zero suspension arc for if I ever get wider wheels/tires back there. :P
Vorshlag has given up on STX with their 5.0 before getting the car to full prep. Fine by me, it's there car, I just wish they would have stuck it out longer and tested the watts link before giving up on STX all together. I do wonder if the 05-10 'stangs are not a better choice for 265 wide tires anyway. Less power potential there, maybe 315/335 at the wheels in STX prep? Lighter weight too but I'm not sure by how much. I need to weigh my car, not that it has had any weight reduction done to it.
I plan on staying in STX until I'm good enough to justify the expensive of the purple crack. There is a lot left to do with the suspension, power, and weight reduction before jumping to Hoosiers.
04-30-2012, 10:54 PM
#30
Yeah I dunno... my car eats slaloms alive with the watts and sucked hard with the stock (yeah I know) PHB. It would get really unsettled when going from turning right to turning left. Not impossible to control but not confidence inspiring at all. Factory PHB so caveat there if there ever was one, factory bushings suck blah blah blah.
A lot of "successful" race cars with PHB's also run pretty high spring rates. I think the FR500's come with 300 lb/in rear rates which isn't "stiff" compared to what some IRS guys are using but it's stiff enough to minimize rear suspension movement which eliminates the whole arc nonsense anyway and keeps the roll center variation pretty small. On a street driven car with soft (but stiffer than stock) lowering springs you are going to see quite a bit of movement over bumps and the PHB just doesn't inspire the same confidence that the watts does.
That is my very limited experience... I literally have 2 autocross events on the watts link and the set up and venue changed between both so it's hardly conclusive, I did have 24k miles of street driving and 9 autocross events last year on the factory suspension.
As for the weight, the weight is all sprung weight and it isn't much over the factory PHB. My box with my watts weighed 31lbs, so that's like 28lbs for the whole watts? You are removing the PHB brace and PHB from the equation and the unsprung weight is about the same. Well worth any added weight over the rear axle for the much lower roll center and zero suspension arc for if I ever get wider wheels/tires back there. :P
Vorshlag has given up on STX with their 5.0 before getting the car to full prep. Fine by me, it's there car, I just wish they would have stuck it out longer and tested the watts link before giving up on STX all together. I do wonder if the 05-10 'stangs are not a better choice for 265 wide tires anyway. Less power potential there, maybe 315/335 at the wheels in STX prep? Lighter weight too but I'm not sure by how much. I need to weigh my car, not that it has had any weight reduction done to it. I plan on staying in STX until I'm good enough to justify the expensive of the purple crack. There is a lot left to do with the suspension, power, and weight reduction before jumping to Hoosiers.
A lot of "successful" race cars with PHB's also run pretty high spring rates. I think the FR500's come with 300 lb/in rear rates which isn't "stiff" compared to what some IRS guys are using but it's stiff enough to minimize rear suspension movement which eliminates the whole arc nonsense anyway and keeps the roll center variation pretty small. On a street driven car with soft (but stiffer than stock) lowering springs you are going to see quite a bit of movement over bumps and the PHB just doesn't inspire the same confidence that the watts does.
That is my very limited experience... I literally have 2 autocross events on the watts link and the set up and venue changed between both so it's hardly conclusive, I did have 24k miles of street driving and 9 autocross events last year on the factory suspension.
As for the weight, the weight is all sprung weight and it isn't much over the factory PHB. My box with my watts weighed 31lbs, so that's like 28lbs for the whole watts? You are removing the PHB brace and PHB from the equation and the unsprung weight is about the same. Well worth any added weight over the rear axle for the much lower roll center and zero suspension arc for if I ever get wider wheels/tires back there. :P
Vorshlag has given up on STX with their 5.0 before getting the car to full prep. Fine by me, it's there car, I just wish they would have stuck it out longer and tested the watts link before giving up on STX all together. I do wonder if the 05-10 'stangs are not a better choice for 265 wide tires anyway. Less power potential there, maybe 315/335 at the wheels in STX prep? Lighter weight too but I'm not sure by how much. I need to weigh my car, not that it has had any weight reduction done to it.
I plan on staying in STX until I'm good enough to justify the expensive of the purple crack. There is a lot left to do with the suspension, power, and weight reduction before jumping to Hoosiers.I've actually had my eye on the Fayes 2 for a while now, but my driving skill doesn't quite necessitate that yet. I'll spend that money on more track time instead. The PHB seems to be doing well enough as my last event at the Streets of Willow I was consistently in the top 2 or 3 in my intermediate group. 412 hp doesn't hurt either...
It is a shame the Vorshlag guys quit STX, but they seem to be doing awesome so far in ESP. (IIRC they beat the former nat. champ one day with uncompetitive victoracers and stx setup besides wheels/tires, and they're considering going 345's in the back
)
