Order of modifications?
05-16-2012, 09:37 PM
#1
1st Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: WI
Posts: 59
Order of modifications?
Hello board,
"Our" Pony is undergoing surgery tomorrow (rebuilt transmission), and so its time to get some get well presents for it.
Here is my question: Which is more important to the car's stability - adding a rear anti-sway bar or new rear lower control arms?
When I go over a bump while on a road, the T/C light flashes due to the car loosing power. This could be controlled with a set of Ford Racing Lower rear control arms (I don't want "aftermarket" due to vibration and noise). I'd also like to rid the car of the boat like ride. My Ford Freestyle seems to handle better, but then again it has 18" wheels, and lower profile tires (and also has a rear anti-sway bar). I hear these works well............
So, should I buy one or the other.......Or both ?????
Or am I wrong in my assumptions that those will help ?
Thanks
"Our" Pony is undergoing surgery tomorrow (rebuilt transmission), and so its time to get some get well presents for it.
Here is my question: Which is more important to the car's stability - adding a rear anti-sway bar or new rear lower control arms?
When I go over a bump while on a road, the T/C light flashes due to the car loosing power. This could be controlled with a set of Ford Racing Lower rear control arms (I don't want "aftermarket" due to vibration and noise). I'd also like to rid the car of the boat like ride. My Ford Freestyle seems to handle better, but then again it has 18" wheels, and lower profile tires (and also has a rear anti-sway bar). I hear these works well............
So, should I buy one or the other.......Or both ?????
Or am I wrong in my assumptions that those will help ?
Thanks
05-17-2012, 11:36 AM
#2
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: state of confusion
Posts: 7,635
Getting rid of "the boat like ride" is a shock/strut matter more than anything else. Unless it's been in storage for significant length(s) of time, any '05 already has or is coming up on eight years in service and can be expected to have at least 35,000 miles on the clock. It's time.
Upgrading those might even help with your T/C problem, as you may actually be getting enough wheelspin as a rear wheel goes really light or momentarily airborne on the back sides of any bumps to trigger it.
Actually, T/C doesn't activate because the car "loses power over bumps" - it's the other way around with the T/C applying a brake and/or cutting power because that's how it stops rear wheels from spinning.
With a 4.0L V6 you shouldn't need T/C anyway (and shouldn't ever be relying on it).
Norm
Upgrading those might even help with your T/C problem, as you may actually be getting enough wheelspin as a rear wheel goes really light or momentarily airborne on the back sides of any bumps to trigger it.
Actually, T/C doesn't activate because the car "loses power over bumps" - it's the other way around with the T/C applying a brake and/or cutting power because that's how it stops rear wheels from spinning.
With a 4.0L V6 you shouldn't need T/C anyway (and shouldn't ever be relying on it).
Norm
05-17-2012, 05:05 PM
#3
I'm inclined to say "all of the above" ... but Norm's right. Upgraded dampeners are a must. Of course I've installed aftermarket swaybars and UPR control arms on my S197 and they made a big improvement.
Fwiw, I don't think you'd notice any difference going from stock to FRPP LCAs.
Fwiw, I don't think you'd notice any difference going from stock to FRPP LCAs.
05-18-2012, 08:53 AM
#4
1st Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: WI
Posts: 59
I guess I didn't thnk about struts or shocks. It doesn't wallow or bounce it just isnt as tight as I think it should be. I have 68k on it.
I got a really good deal on Gabriel ultra rear shocks a while back but never installed them. Should I or are they poor quality? What brand of front struts are the best?
I got a really good deal on Gabriel ultra rear shocks a while back but never installed them. Should I or are they poor quality? What brand of front struts are the best?
05-18-2012, 10:07 AM
#5
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: state of confusion
Posts: 7,635
The amount of shock/strut damping for best grip comes in somewhere around two or three times the amount of damping that provides the best ride. It would be fair to assume that most cars end up with shock damping chosen closer to best ride than best grip, especially for those cars not intended to be the king-of-the-hill cornering/handling champs.
Noticeable wallowing or bouncing suggests damping that's well below the level associated with "best ride". "Best ride" and even "best grip" damping still permits the suspension to overshoot its final position a bit, but most people don't particularly notice this. There's other things going on that shock/strut damping is affecting, and most people don't intentionally drive hard enough anyway.
Most people barely use 1/3 of a car's ultimate performance anywhere except for WOT acceleration and the occasional emergency braking event. If you used just half of the car's cornering potential, you'd drive away from just about everybody every time the road stopped going straight. And that's about the level where additional spring/bar stiffness starts actually benefitting the performance from a mechanical standpoint.
Stiffer springs and sta-bars will also tighten things up, at least in terms of how much roll and pitch (nose dive/rise, tail squat/lift) happens. The biggest benefits in street driving from these are probably subjective. I'm not trying to discount the importance of the subjective side here (this can be very important when operating up near the limits), but the amount of actual performance used on the street - and how much the car moves around on its suspension as a result - really isn't all that much.
There is one other thing about stiffer springs and bars - the extra stiffness requires somewhat more damping in order to stay in the same place on the "wallowing - best ride - best grip - etc." spectrum. Otherwise the extra stiffness has an easier time "overpowering" the shocks/struts (essentially, you'd move downward on that scale). Even if you only upgraded the bars and left the springs as OE, the suspension would still need a little more damping.
You'll find that many of the people whose compromise point is somewhere out on the handling side of ride vs handling prefer Konis, particularly the yellow adjustables (aka Sports). Not because they might impress by seeming a little spendy, but because they work (know that there are shocks out there that make the price of Koni yellows sound absolutely bargain-basement).
I scanned through 37 customer responses at autoanything.com concerning the Gabriels, and the vast majority of them mentioned ride quality, which leads me to expect them to be valved much closer to "best ride" then "best handling". Not really a surprise. Quality-wise . . . I haven't run Gabriels in many years, though I did have a set of their adjustable shocks on one car that seemed to last OK.
Norm
Noticeable wallowing or bouncing suggests damping that's well below the level associated with "best ride". "Best ride" and even "best grip" damping still permits the suspension to overshoot its final position a bit, but most people don't particularly notice this. There's other things going on that shock/strut damping is affecting, and most people don't intentionally drive hard enough anyway.
Most people barely use 1/3 of a car's ultimate performance anywhere except for WOT acceleration and the occasional emergency braking event. If you used just half of the car's cornering potential, you'd drive away from just about everybody every time the road stopped going straight. And that's about the level where additional spring/bar stiffness starts actually benefitting the performance from a mechanical standpoint.
Stiffer springs and sta-bars will also tighten things up, at least in terms of how much roll and pitch (nose dive/rise, tail squat/lift) happens. The biggest benefits in street driving from these are probably subjective. I'm not trying to discount the importance of the subjective side here (this can be very important when operating up near the limits), but the amount of actual performance used on the street - and how much the car moves around on its suspension as a result - really isn't all that much.
There is one other thing about stiffer springs and bars - the extra stiffness requires somewhat more damping in order to stay in the same place on the "wallowing - best ride - best grip - etc." spectrum. Otherwise the extra stiffness has an easier time "overpowering" the shocks/struts (essentially, you'd move downward on that scale). Even if you only upgraded the bars and left the springs as OE, the suspension would still need a little more damping.
You'll find that many of the people whose compromise point is somewhere out on the handling side of ride vs handling prefer Konis, particularly the yellow adjustables (aka Sports). Not because they might impress by seeming a little spendy, but because they work (know that there are shocks out there that make the price of Koni yellows sound absolutely bargain-basement).
I scanned through 37 customer responses at autoanything.com concerning the Gabriels, and the vast majority of them mentioned ride quality, which leads me to expect them to be valved much closer to "best ride" then "best handling". Not really a surprise. Quality-wise . . . I haven't run Gabriels in many years, though I did have a set of their adjustable shocks on one car that seemed to last OK.
Norm
Last edited by Norm Peterson; 05-18-2012 at 10:35 AM.
05-18-2012, 12:30 PM
#7
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 738
The typical agressive street setup is Koni STR.T (or yellows if you want adjustables) combined with Steeda Sport Springs. It offers a stiffer but not completely unbearable ride as well as increased handling. If you get the adjustable shocks you can set them up for track days or days when you want a little stiffer ride.
05-18-2012, 04:23 PM
#8
1st Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: WI
Posts: 59
Wow thanks - that was excellent. I guess for me a little better handling is worth a little give in comfort. I am not looking for a track ready car but of one that can be predictable when pushing the limits a bit. Part of my issue is that I am used to Fwd and awd cars that offer more predictable and more linear handling. I can tell when the handling is close to the limit but with the mustang its a bit harder.
My biggest gripe is the wiggly rear end and after reading magazines and reviews I know this can be improved upon.
My biggest gripe is the wiggly rear end and after reading magazines and reviews I know this can be improved upon.
05-19-2012, 08:45 AM
#9
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: state of confusion
Posts: 7,635
Ultimately, you do trade some of one to get more of the other, but since the whole damping vs ride comfort thing is rather complicated, it is possible to get improved grip without paying much penalty in overall ride quality. There's a difference between 'firmer', which you would probably feel as having tighter control, and harsh, which is the kind of ride that going over concrete expansion joints and broken pavement makes you think the shocks were filled with cement instead of oil. It is possible to separate 'firm' from 'harsh' to some extent (note that some shock makes do this better than others - Bilsteins and Konis are pretty good, Illuminas pretty damn poor).
FWD and AWD tend to be more predictable, partly because the front tires are doing most of the work (will run out of grip first) and will naturally understeer (which tends to be self-limiting). With RWD, you have much more influence on where the car is headed coming from the rear tire slip angles, which in turn are influenced by how much throttle you're using (or trying to use). That puts more of the burden on the driver (the price you pay for the performance advantage of separating the drive from the steering). Things probably do happen a little faster if you ask the rear tires of a RWD car to do more cornering + acceleration than they have total grip for.
Norm
FWD and AWD tend to be more predictable, partly because the front tires are doing most of the work (will run out of grip first) and will naturally understeer (which tends to be self-limiting). With RWD, you have much more influence on where the car is headed coming from the rear tire slip angles, which in turn are influenced by how much throttle you're using (or trying to use). That puts more of the burden on the driver (the price you pay for the performance advantage of separating the drive from the steering). Things probably do happen a little faster if you ask the rear tires of a RWD car to do more cornering + acceleration than they have total grip for.
Norm
05-19-2012, 09:12 AM
#10
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,692
Ultimately, you do trade some of one to get more of the other, but since the whole damping vs ride comfort thing is rather complicated, it is possible to get improved grip without paying much penalty in overall ride quality. There's a difference between 'firmer', which you would probably feel as having tighter control, and harsh, which is the kind of ride that going over concrete expansion joints and broken pavement makes you think the shocks were filled with cement instead of oil. It is possible to separate 'firm' from 'harsh' to some extent (note that some shock makes do this better than others - Bilsteins and Konis are pretty good, Illuminas pretty damn poor).
FWD and AWD tend to be more predictable, partly because the front tires are doing most of the work (will run out of grip first) and will naturally understeer (which tends to be self-limiting). With RWD, you have much more influence on where the car is headed coming from the rear tire slip angles, which in turn are influenced by how much throttle you're using (or trying to use). That puts more of the burden on the driver (the price you pay for the performance advantage of separating the drive from the steering). Things probably do happen a little faster if you ask the rear tires of a RWD car to do more cornering + acceleration than they have total grip for.
Norm
FWD and AWD tend to be more predictable, partly because the front tires are doing most of the work (will run out of grip first) and will naturally understeer (which tends to be self-limiting). With RWD, you have much more influence on where the car is headed coming from the rear tire slip angles, which in turn are influenced by how much throttle you're using (or trying to use). That puts more of the burden on the driver (the price you pay for the performance advantage of separating the drive from the steering). Things probably do happen a little faster if you ask the rear tires of a RWD car to do more cornering + acceleration than they have total grip for.
Norm
The instructors that I went to VIR with teach there are 6 ways to steer a car;
1) steering wheel
2) throttle on
3) throttle off
4) brake on
5) brake off
6) choosing the wrong gear
The better the power/torque to weight ratio the more important 2) and 3) become and the more you need to learn that the throttle pedal is a rheostat and not an on/off switch. My car is only an 2008 GT but with the Roush SC still has more power than the 2013 GT's. I'm still learning.