MT Mag 2013 Mustang vs Camaro SS 1LE
02-11-2013, 08:14 AM
#1
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MT Mag 2013 Mustang vs Camaro SS 1LE
How sick am I of having Ford have under performing options for tires and wheels available for this platform????
Ford's had plenty of time to figure out the best combo of suspension parts, chassis stiffening, brakes and properly off set wide wheels and tires that bite.
Once again, a lighter Mustang with the same HP(6 less) get's it's *** handed to it by a heavier Camaro in every single freakin' category. I think my love affair with this car is nearly over!
Not only does Ford have outdated technology working it's suspensions, they are not able to re-fit a great combo of wheels and tires for these track packs. The tail end coming out, was once again the biggest issue, as well as inferior G's and figure 8, as well as a good deal slower lap time.
Why do we Mustang owners constantly have to be at the mercy of the aftermarket, with all it's unbalanced combo of parts, over hyped promises and numerous incompetent shops and installers??
A track pack should be the manufacturers best attempt with all the companies R&D coming to bear on the package. Not Ford though, apparently only Chevy actually delivers real technical solutions to these performance parameters. It's a second thought over at the blue Oval.
The Camaro SS 1LE basically matches the Boss 302 in breaking and handling stats, and this is with a mere added track specific upgrade to the base car. WTF Ford! End of rant, Erik
Ford's had plenty of time to figure out the best combo of suspension parts, chassis stiffening, brakes and properly off set wide wheels and tires that bite.
Once again, a lighter Mustang with the same HP(6 less) get's it's *** handed to it by a heavier Camaro in every single freakin' category. I think my love affair with this car is nearly over!
Not only does Ford have outdated technology working it's suspensions, they are not able to re-fit a great combo of wheels and tires for these track packs. The tail end coming out, was once again the biggest issue, as well as inferior G's and figure 8, as well as a good deal slower lap time.
Why do we Mustang owners constantly have to be at the mercy of the aftermarket, with all it's unbalanced combo of parts, over hyped promises and numerous incompetent shops and installers??
A track pack should be the manufacturers best attempt with all the companies R&D coming to bear on the package. Not Ford though, apparently only Chevy actually delivers real technical solutions to these performance parameters. It's a second thought over at the blue Oval.
The Camaro SS 1LE basically matches the Boss 302 in breaking and handling stats, and this is with a mere added track specific upgrade to the base car. WTF Ford! End of rant, Erik
02-11-2013, 10:50 AM
#2
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: WI
Posts: 5
I prefer that my car not be built into a corner. You can take the mustang in many different directions, track, drag, show car, daily driver... There are too many variables during these test including who spent the most advertising money to determine a cut and dry winner. I don't feel like I'm at the mercy of anyone or feel that I've settled for something less. There will always be something faster and better out there. Enjoy what you have otherwise your chasing after something you'll never catch.
02-11-2013, 11:02 AM
#3
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Location: Woodstock, GA
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I saw the same review (in youtube form) and was a bit disappointed. The fact that a Boss would have only given an even comparison to end-result #'s against that 1LE speaks volumes about what SRA's 'don't' do. A lighter car just got beat by a heavier car because it can't properly put that power to the ground and control it (suspension!). The guy at the end of the video put it best (sadly enough); "The difference from this 1LE to a GT-R, are less than the Mustang GT track pack to this 1LE".
SRA needs to go away, simply put. Can't tell diehards here that - or the fact that they are about the 'last' Ford car to get an IRS (Last car in the western world worth more than 20k..). Too many wanna go in a straight line, and that's all good, however real-world situations require turning, and that means more than turning Left too..
Hell the SVT Cobra R from the early 00's had IRS, and is 'still' a mean beast in all regards (track, straight, blah blah). Sure they had problems (The chassis was not built for IRS), but it worked - that IRS knowledge should have been worked out, and bled through to the S197, or at least v2 of the s197. Looks like the S550 will be it's welcome wagon finally..
IRS in Cobra R has issues -but works; http://www.fulltiltboogieracing.com/mystery_of_irs.htm
SRA needs to go away, simply put. Can't tell diehards here that - or the fact that they are about the 'last' Ford car to get an IRS (Last car in the western world worth more than 20k..). Too many wanna go in a straight line, and that's all good, however real-world situations require turning, and that means more than turning Left too..
Hell the SVT Cobra R from the early 00's had IRS, and is 'still' a mean beast in all regards (track, straight, blah blah). Sure they had problems (The chassis was not built for IRS), but it worked - that IRS knowledge should have been worked out, and bled through to the S197, or at least v2 of the s197. Looks like the S550 will be it's welcome wagon finally..
IRS in Cobra R has issues -but works; http://www.fulltiltboogieracing.com/mystery_of_irs.htm
02-11-2013, 11:35 AM
#4
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Thanks for the link Jayyvee. I really like the Mustang's flexible range for different folks, but I couldn't agree more about the IRS. This car's main nemesis is it's own Solid rear axel when turning the car or going straight over anything but a smooth surface.
The lightning lap, this article, how many more examples where this rear issue is so glaring that it's hard to enjoy other aspects of the car. You really do have a white knuckle ride in these cars with unpredictable behavior, and that becomes your focus instead of trying to drive better or well, you end up baby sitting an unpredictable suspension at high speeds. Erik
The lightning lap, this article, how many more examples where this rear issue is so glaring that it's hard to enjoy other aspects of the car. You really do have a white knuckle ride in these cars with unpredictable behavior, and that becomes your focus instead of trying to drive better or well, you end up baby sitting an unpredictable suspension at high speeds. Erik
02-11-2013, 12:40 PM
#5
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: WA
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the 1le package is an amazing performance bargain for what it costs.
don't get fixated on a magazine track comparison though. track times are applicable to few owners of the car, it's not like you're driving an incredibly inferior product - someone else just offered a better bang for the buck. this is good for all involved - Ford is getting slapped in the face with a new level of competition, right at the end of a product cycle. this will force them to really dial things in and fire back.
don't get fixated on a magazine track comparison though. track times are applicable to few owners of the car, it's not like you're driving an incredibly inferior product - someone else just offered a better bang for the buck. this is good for all involved - Ford is getting slapped in the face with a new level of competition, right at the end of a product cycle. this will force them to really dial things in and fire back.
Let me know when you can achieve a lap time close to Randy Pobst also.
02-11-2013, 02:50 PM
#7
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The 1LE has super soft Goodyear Supercar G2 dry summer only tires that are $500 a piece. If a 1LE was your DD you may get 8000-10000 miles if you are a moderate driver and are lucky. Spending 2K every 10 months on tires would not be practical for most people.
02-11-2013, 03:28 PM
#8
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Funny you mention the Lightning lap. If you are looking at the Lightning lap from 2012 C&R mag, what I took away from that was that the Boss LS edition did exceptionally well for its class and did much better than prior Best drivers cars (Porsche Cayman R). What I find the most important about that Lightning lap article is the last page, page 64, where there is that busy scatter plot showing a predicted lap time based on power to weight numbers. This graph is nice because there is more power in the results due to so many cars tested and numerous versions of the same car tested. Basically based on the cars power to weight ratio, they can predict a lap time. They plot the actual lap time for the car against this linear relationship. Those above the line have higher than predicted lap times and are deemed underperformers. Those below are the opposite. So one could argue that if the car is above the line that the suspension, tires, brakes, or gearing is to blame. The Driver is kind of removed from the equation because there have been so many different drivers and its their collective results that were used to formulate the equation for the predicted lap time. Conversely, if the lap times are better than predicted, it is due to better suspension, tires, brakes, etc.
The most tested car is the corvette and its various iterations. They, for the most part fall on the line or slightly better than expected, presumably from their very wide softer tires and pretty good suspension geometry and much better brakes. There is an odd corvette that falls above the line, maybe the weather conditions were not optimal for the tires or brakes were abused prior to the car being donated for the event. Similar results are seen with the Porsche 911.
Conversely, there have been many mustangs tested over the years. Interestingly, the V6 and a random GT were on the line or better for predicted lap times, while all GT500 were always above the line. They last tested the Boss LS edition (which has softer wider rubber than the standard Boss and much better than a track pack GT, in addition to stiffer springs, adj shocks, thicker sways, more power, etc.) which matched up exactly with the predicted lap based on power to weight.
My analysis of this busy graph is this: the standard suspension, tire, and brake package is quickly overwhelmed (on a race track) when the power gets above 300 hp. Even with the suspension, brakes, etc improvements on the GT500, it still can't handle the 650hp. The Boss LS is a great example of how the right combination of essentially aftermarket parts can handle that power and perform around a race track as predicted. And that is with the stick axle. Now, I'm not endorsing the stick axle, but it still can work on a race track. The mustangs main drawbacks are its tires, suspension, and brakes. We all know this. These components can be improved easily and with not too much money. Yes, I agree that Ford should offer a better track pack and start with a better base but Mustangs have always been cheaper than their rivals. Not every one takes their cars to the track where these shortcommings are so apparent and for them the stock base crap is good enough.
Now, I will agree that if the mustang had an indepent rear suspension, it could do more with less tire, brakes, etc. Hopefully the 2015 still looks like a mustang and isn't an AWD turbo V4 in automatic only.
The most tested car is the corvette and its various iterations. They, for the most part fall on the line or slightly better than expected, presumably from their very wide softer tires and pretty good suspension geometry and much better brakes. There is an odd corvette that falls above the line, maybe the weather conditions were not optimal for the tires or brakes were abused prior to the car being donated for the event. Similar results are seen with the Porsche 911.
Conversely, there have been many mustangs tested over the years. Interestingly, the V6 and a random GT were on the line or better for predicted lap times, while all GT500 were always above the line. They last tested the Boss LS edition (which has softer wider rubber than the standard Boss and much better than a track pack GT, in addition to stiffer springs, adj shocks, thicker sways, more power, etc.) which matched up exactly with the predicted lap based on power to weight.
My analysis of this busy graph is this: the standard suspension, tire, and brake package is quickly overwhelmed (on a race track) when the power gets above 300 hp. Even with the suspension, brakes, etc improvements on the GT500, it still can't handle the 650hp. The Boss LS is a great example of how the right combination of essentially aftermarket parts can handle that power and perform around a race track as predicted. And that is with the stick axle. Now, I'm not endorsing the stick axle, but it still can work on a race track. The mustangs main drawbacks are its tires, suspension, and brakes. We all know this. These components can be improved easily and with not too much money. Yes, I agree that Ford should offer a better track pack and start with a better base but Mustangs have always been cheaper than their rivals. Not every one takes their cars to the track where these shortcommings are so apparent and for them the stock base crap is good enough.
Now, I will agree that if the mustang had an indepent rear suspension, it could do more with less tire, brakes, etc. Hopefully the 2015 still looks like a mustang and isn't an AWD turbo V4 in automatic only.
Last edited by UrS4; 02-11-2013 at 03:32 PM.
02-11-2013, 05:07 PM
#9
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I'm happy to live with my live axel even on the street with my fit out suspension, chassis stiffening and Watts Link. It's just painful to see these magazines set up the Mustang over and over again to look like a chump.
I agree 100% that weaker brakes, less compliant suspension parts, and the Pan hard bar set up, and skinny average tires, continually make the "track pack" Mustang GT look weak and out of control in these comparisons.
Is there real track times from a properly fit out after market Mustangs?? Please show me so I can see a Mustang redeemed for once. Erik
I agree 100% that weaker brakes, less compliant suspension parts, and the Pan hard bar set up, and skinny average tires, continually make the "track pack" Mustang GT look weak and out of control in these comparisons.
Is there real track times from a properly fit out after market Mustangs?? Please show me so I can see a Mustang redeemed for once. Erik
