eolson

My frustration now days is that I have enjoyed my car very much, and willingly put added chassis stiffening and braces on my car. That stuff is all installed properly, some welded, and in an additive manner, really has made the car more rigid and eliminated most any roll. Those items are:
STB, Shock TB, G-trac bar, Dual triangulated rear chassis braces(welded)Steeda, a Whiteline front 4 point brace, Steeda front sway bar braces. Also I went with Steeda's solution for maintaining proper lowered roll center with the X-5 ball joints, front LCA re-location kit and bumpstear.
So with the exception of bumpsteer seating adjustability, these additions are simply put into place, and do particular jobs, pretty straight forward.

Since those parts are installed properly, the frustration for me now is when considering the variables left for the suspension, which are:
Do I have the right linear rate springs(Saleen 06)? Do I have the right shocks(D-specs) and settings on them?
Do I have the right sway bars with the right tension settings? Do I have the right rear LCA's(Steeda Billit NA) and are they positioned at the best angle for handling? Do I need Caster/camber adjustability for best over all handling(stock now), and then having bumpsteer properly seated again.

and the real corker, with all these questions, where and how do I find a race shop(like Sam Strano's) that really knows how to procure the right combination of changes I need, and repeatedly test and adjust the parts on the car for a few days, or a couple weeks, to tune the suspension for it's best general handling outcomes???

I have found no one I can trust to advise on the parts, and then adjust and tune them according to my actual cars individual situation and characteristics.

Any suggestions anyone??? They would all be welcome. Race Shops in 2 hours of Detroit that actually know what they are doing with Mustang suspensions?? Thank You, Erik

Norm Peterson

This is what test and tune days are for. Best if you can datalog. What you're comfortable with matters, since you tend to be inconsistent with a setting that's too extreme for you in any way. This does suggest that due to further development as a driver you may not be completely done with the suspension after only a single round of changes.

For a 'handling' stick axle car, I'd never use LCAs with less than a spherical pivot of some sort at least at one end. I'd also DIY-modify any polyurethane end for less "bind".

If your cambers aren't out there somewhere past -1.5°, they need to be. If it's a "one setting to fit all driving" situation, you probably don't want to be past about -2°.


Norm

JIM5.0

Thanks so much everyone,
Thanks Erik, for you first hand info and the description of the mods you use.
Thanks Sam also for you on thoughts especially coming from a professional Auto-x-er's point of view and the equipment you recommend.
Thanks Norm for your own thoughts too, coming from an engineering point of view and especially for your vivid description of dynamic wheel loading as the car is executing maneuvers while under power, while braking, etc. I just barely begun to read the links you posted, so it will take me awhile to mull over them and absorb all the info they have.

DPE

The question posed was what does one need to do to get a 5.0 to go faster around a track (I filled in 'road course on an HPDE day' here, given the context of the Motor Trend Comparo) than a 1LE Camaro.

Tiger said it in the second post but I didn't see it mentioned in any of the rest; learn how to drive really well and more often than not you'll be faster in a plain old 5.0 than the majority of track day guys in a 1LE.

I am by no means a fantastic driver, but by virtue of seat time and the basic necessary mods for track use I often outrun 'faster' cars on track. With track pads and fluid, Konis and Steeda top mounts, and 275/40 summer tires (Not R-comps) on GT500 wheels at all four corners, I was the fastest Mustang at one track event that included 2 Bosses and one GT500. And I had a 2010 with a bone stock 4.6L. So keep driver in mind first.

Beyond that, I very much agree on Konis; in and of themselves probably don't make a lot of difference in lap times, but in the context of how much better the car feels with them on there and how much more confidence the driver feels, you will run faster laps.

Before that, though, race pads and fluid are your best friends, and a must have for any car driven on track for more than a few laps if you are running near the limit. Give someone like Mr. Strano a bone stock 5.0 with Brembos (or maybe even without Brembos for a couple sessions) and decent tires, add track pads and fluid, and I guarantee he'll run faster laps than 9 out of 10 1LE drivers who show up at a given track day. Add some tweener tires like NT05s at all four corners in 275/40 and let him raid his shop for some Konis and springs to settle the car down, and that number goes to 10 out of 10 unless Pobst shows up or someone like that. Point being though, beyond basic brake and tire upgrades, the driver matters a whole lot more than anything else at a given track day, if you're talking about two cars that are only 2-3 seconds apart on a given track in the hands of the same driver.

If you just want to upgrade so your numbers are better, that's fine, but they make upgrades for Camaros too. And then we can devolve into inane conversations about 'yeah but the 1LE costs more and I could put the difference into Mustang mods' etc. But then the Camaro guy, in a few months, could buy a USED 1LE for the cost of your new Mustang. And then I could go buy a 2011 Brembo GT for $10k less than that..... and there's no resolution. Learn how to drive properly, prep the car for track duty, show up at the track on the same day the 'enemy' does, and outrun his ***; that's how you win the argument.

UrS4

Well put!

tigercrazy718

you perfectly said what i was thinking, but too lazy to type out haha

lost won

[QUOTE=
What suspension upgrade would I need to do to not just equal what a Camaro SS with 1LE package does, but destroy a Camaro SS-1LE at the track?[/QUOTE]

Jim,

Don't waste your time and money trying to upgrade a GT to beat the 1LE on a track. Sure, it can be done; but at what cost?

You have four options:

1) Enjoy your GT. As it is. Best bang for the buck dead stock. Once you mod it, you'll never see that money again.

2) Trade for a Boss laguna seca. Has most of the stuff designed in to win at the track.

3) Wait about a year and get in early on the new Mustang. It too will have most of the right stuff to win on the track.

4) There's a fourth option, but this IS a Mustang site.

It's that simple. Trust me, I've been down those roads. Use yer bucks wisely. Save some for later.
And remember, if you learn to drive better, that goes with you to whatever you drive next.

Best Regards,

John

eolson

Although, if you add the cost of Steeda Comp springs, the Koni sport adjustable dampers, 3 way adjustable front and rear sway bars, a watts link, adjustable caster/camber, a g-trac bar, a shock tower brace, lighter 9.5x18(40mm offset) wheels, and 285/40/18 summer rubber all around, Big brakes with air duct cooling front facia, you are only giving the Mustang GT 5.0 the same treatment and chance at better performance as the 1LE package has given the Camaro, at the track.

So if you really love your Mustang, there is no other way to make it a better track car than it comes stock. These cars are not sold with compliant enough stock equipment to compete with the 1LE, Ford still hasn't designed a serious track pack upgrade for the GT.

Asking people to buy a Boss still doesn't solve some of the problems a Mustang has when comparing it to the Camaro 1LE.

Buying a basic Mustang GT 5.0 and shopping wisely for the above mentioned items will be cheaper than buying a Boss, and at the same time solve the problems the Boss had against the ZL1, which was the Boss's lateral movement in hard, uneven surfaced, bumpy track curb corners and not having wide and sticky enough front wheels and tires for maintaining speed into corners.

I'll be shocked if Ford solves these problem with the next generation. They will still cow tow to the straight line crowd IMO, as they did with the new GT 500. Erik

JIM5.0

That is a little disappointing because the new 2015 will be lighter and mount IRS. The potential is there for much better handling, but it wont be realized without the appropriate shocks & springs to go with the car.

I really hope Ford gets the right recipe for superior handling. The stock S197 GT shocks, struts, anti-roll bars are woefully inadequate for track use and require upgrading. The wheel and tire size can use upgrading too.
I hope the 2015 chassis (S-2015?) will address these things.

For the IRS, I hope Ford has learned their lessons from the Terminator IRS, and I also hope that Ford has been paying attention to the problems Chevy has had with their IRS.
The Camaro SS IRS has weak spindles for the 426BHP the engine makes. Even bolt-on mods are enough to break the stock SS IRS spindle axles. Add a supercharger and they snap like a twig.


I really hope Ford does not make the same mistake, especially considering our cars all make in excess of 400BHP and bolt-on mods easily can go above 450BHP.
Chevy was smart enough to completely beef up the rear end of the Camaro. The ZL1 and the 1LE package both come with much stronger spindles. Prior to the ZL1 and the 1LE package, stronger spindles that had to be bought aftermarket from Lingenfelter or others. Additionally, Chevy got smart and upgraded their smaller 8.65in rear gear with a much larger 9.9in rear gear.

Our cars are getting much more powerful, and even though there are rumors that everyone is going V6 for the GT & SS trims, even our Sixxers are very capable of being modded to above 450BHP.
Ford designed our Coyote and also our 3.7L DOHC TiVCT engines to one day take boost and direct injection. The NA 3.7L is already 305BHP, but I can see a GT with EcoBoost 3.7L making well above today's Coyote 420BHP. Even this sixxer would wreak havoc on a poorly designed IRS.

eolson

Thanks for the post Jim5.0, I am hoping for a reversal from Ford to a priority of handling with the next Mustang, I can only hope, Erik