Lowering your 05/06 Mustang GT

[Norm Peterson]

Cutting coils is certainly an option, at least in some cases. I've done it a couple of times. I'll also mention that in each caseI started out with stiffer than OE springs, which buys a little extra margin against bottoming out on the bump stops. BUT . . . if you don't have some knowledge of spring design, don't try it yourself. It's all too easy to either cut too little or too much. Too little = remove, cut a little more off, replace. Too much = start over with new springs. Personally, I wouldn't be all that comfortable letting anybody else do it after they only casually mentioned it. Too many unknowns, and anybody can cut wrong once in a while. Norm

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[F1Fan]

ORIGINAL: wingman75

F1Fan, let me ask you a question that I think I already know the answer to... maybe. But just to verify, I asked my tuner, who is the owner of a highly respected Mustang and Ford performance shop, how best to lower my Mustang GT in the rear only without ruining its handling. I mentioned to him that I was thinking of using Roush rear springs only. I also told him that I was a little uncomfortable with the cars leaning over in tight curves, like freeway entrance and exit ramps. He said that he would just cut my rear springs and it would be fine. I am very skeptical of this procedure. But I have a great deal of respect for this pro and I'm at loss as to what to do now.

Hi wingman75,

Yes you likely know my answer already don't you? The reasonyou know my answer is because after reading some of what I've written youare probably thinking along the same lines. Youhave to know that it's not a matter of respect for the guybut a matter of results and cost to you in time and money.In this day and age there is no reason to cut a spring for lowering ride height. It's just not worth the trouble and cost to do it correctly and if they screw it up or you are just unhappy you have nowhere to go back to. This mechanic may beold schooland have the skillz to perform this operation properly but to do a pair of springs right takes time, a good eye and even better timing and just as in racing a touch of luck. It is not a trivial thing to do andisa last resortsort of move to save money or put a car on the trackdue to the rather uncertain outcome of the job.

Do you know what is invloved in cutting apair of springs when the springs are not parallel sided and flat ground? The stock springs are not simple parallel sided springs, they have a top and a bottom windwhich differ andare finished off slightly differently. In order to get the ends to sit right in the spring seats and for you to have any chance of gettingyour car back witha levelstancethe ends must be re-bent to match the stock reducing coil diametersor youmay getspring noise from the coils hitting each other. This isaserious problem if the springs are not finished off in the exact same manner on both sides the car will not sit level. It's also a hugeguess as to how much to cut off and where the car will end up once the springs are reinstalled. When you figure in the time and labor and the chance that it will not be a perfect match side to side with the springs ends are refinished why not just buy a set of known good springs? It is no more expensive than cutting them and you get it done right the first time.

Keep us posted on this!

HTH!

[wingman75]

ORIGINAL: F1Fan

Hi wingman75,

Yes you likely know my answer already don't you? The reason you know my answer is because after reading some of what I've written you are probably thinking along the same lines. You have to know that it's not a matter of respect for the guy but a matter of results and cost to you in time and money. In this day and age there is no reason to cut a spring for lowering ride height. It's just not worth the trouble and cost to do it correctly and if they screw it up or you are just unhappy you have nowhere to go back to. This mechanic may be old school and have the skillz to perform this operation properly but to do a pair of springs right takes time, a good eye and even better timing and just as in racing a touch of luck. It is not a trivial thing to do and is a last resort sort of move to save money or put a car on the track due to the rather uncertain outcome of the job.

Do you know what is invloved in cutting a pair of springs when the springs are not parallel sided and flat ground? The stock springs are not simple parallel sided springs, they have a top and a bottom wind which differ and are finished off slightly differently. In order to get the ends to sit right in the spring seats and for you to have any chance of getting your car back with a level stance the ends must be re-bent to match the stock reducing coil diameters or you may get spring noise from the coils hitting each other. This is a serious problem if the springs are not finished off in the exact same manner on both sides the car will not sit level. It's also a huge guess as to how much to cut off and where the car will end up once the springs are reinstalled. When you figure in the time and labor and the chance that it will not be a perfect match side to side with the springs ends are refinished why not just buy a set of known good springs? It is no more expensive than cutting them and you get it done right the first time.

Keep us posted on this!

HTH!

Thanks for the response F1Fan. What you say about cutting makes sense to me. But the other part of my question still stands: will using the Roush rear only springs be detrimental to the cars handling. I'm probably expecting to much out of this mod; both handling and a balanced front to rear stance. What do you say about that?

[F1Fan]

ORIGINAL: wingman75

Thanks for the response F1Fan. What you say about cutting makes sense to me. But the other part of my question still stands: will using the Roush rear only springs be detrimental to the cars handling. I'm probably expecting to much out of this mod; both handling and a balanced front to rear stance. What do you say about that?

Hi wingman75,

Well you knewmy answer to the first questiondidn't you? I have no personal drivingexperience with the Roush RSO setup but many people who use their cars as daily drivers have said they work O.K. and I don't see any reason why they could not work O.K. as long as you are not expecting any kind of performance advantage to the Roush RSO setup. All the Roush Rear Springs Only setup can provide is at best a visual improvement in the stance of the car with minimal impact on ride and handling balance.

The truth is thatmost people can't tell the difference between a good handling car and apoor handling carbecause they don't really have much opportunity to explore whatmoder cars on modern performance rubberare capable of in the twisty bits. Most folkstip-toe around corners like thesecars are right out of the 1950's. I've driven with amany Mustang and Corvette drivers who are under the impression that they are fast sporty drivers and they have no idea what even a stock S197 Mustang can do on the track or curvyroads. So for the majority of the people out there who want to lower the rear of their car a bit using the Roush RSO setup they will be fine.

HTH!

[LICobra]

F1... since im in the same situation as Wingman, I guess the roush's in the back is an easy fix.As far swapping outjust the rear springs, by lowering the back end, will it raise the front up any ????

Also...with some suggestions from this thread: I checked out, Vogtland leveling springs, theyclaim lowering the front .8 and the rear 1.25, similar to the steeda. And Tein H Tech springs from japan, they claim lowering the front .9 and the rear 1.7 ...any experience with either of these brands ??

Thanks
LICobra

[Centurion96]

ORIGINAL: F1Fan

The truth is thatmost people can't tell the difference between a good handling car and apoor handling carbecause they don't really have much opportunity to explore whatmoder cars on modern performance rubberare capable of in the twisty bits. Most folkstip-toe around corners like thesecars are right out of the 1950's. I've driven with amany Mustang and Corvette drivers who are under the impression that they are fast sporty drivers and they have no idea what even a stock S197 Mustang can do on the track or curvyroads. So for the majority of the people out there who want to lower the rear of their car a bit using the Roush RSO setup they will be fine.

HTH!

Unfortunately those miles of twisties are now lined with Taco Bells and Wendys. The monthly autocrosses are, in some cases, limited to a finite number of entries due to property owners concerned about insurance liabilities and their property getting abused. Should you be in earshot of a LEO as you push yourtires to the limit on a hairpin onramp or a nice twisty, you'll get slapped with a failure to have vehicle under control.There are very few places where todays drivers can safely push the limits of their vehicles so they never fully appreciate what they have.

35 years ago I was running TSDS rallys down in the Hocking Hills of SE Ohio, you can't do that anymore. 30 years ago I was running autocrosses in an abandoned subdivision in both Palm Beach Gardens and Sugarloaf Key but those places have all been developed. Maybe there is still some room out West to stretch a Mustangs legs but here in the East it is backsides to bellybuttons with zombie drivers.

[JiminVirginia]

After reading most of the posts in this long and useful thread, I'm wondering if anyone has simply installed the handling pack from Ford Racing that uses the springs, dampers, and sway bars that go into the Shelby GT; this is the SCCA T2 package as I understand it. Add an adjustable Panhard bar, and maybe even camber bolts, and I would think you would have lowered your car by 1.5 inches and achieved extremely good handling to boot. All for not that much money.

Any thoughts about this approach?

I've got a 2008 Bullitt, if this makes any difference.

Cheers,

Jim

[F1Fan]

ORIGINAL: JiminVirginia

After reading most of the posts in this long and useful thread, I'm wondering if anyone has simply installed the handling pack from Ford Racing that uses the springs, dampers, and sway bars that go into the Shelby GT; this is the SCCA T2 package as I understand it. Add an adjustable Panhard bar, and maybe even camber bolts, and I would think you would have lowered your car by 1.5 inches and achieved extremely good handling to boot. All for not that much money.

Any thoughts about this approach?

I've got a 2008 Bullitt, if this makes any difference.

Cheers,

Jim

Hi Jim,

Sure lots of people have done just that and they have found what I mentioned a good handling car witha slight touch of understeer in slow to mediumturns and a hard ride.Like the stock S197GT's dampers Ford has seen fit to build dampers with a "sporty" feelwith damping curves that are amuch too stiffin bump and a bit soft in rebound for a DD street car and being non-adjustableno way to adjust or tune them for driving or roadconditions. The FRPPdamper curvesmake for a good handling caron the track and an unhappydriver everyday going to and from work even on reasonably smooth roads. The FRPP marketed Multi-Matic tuned dampers are notgood on the race track butnot a good option for daily driven street cars.

The otherissue isthe Eibach Pro-Kit springs which are IMO and experience too low with less than ideal spring rate curvesforreal world and daily driven cars that have to deal with driveways and underground parking stuctures, my car was scraping all the time and I was did not likescraping the bottom of myfrontbumper cover, rocker panelsand frame rails. The spring rate is too soft for much of the travel and this causes the car to bottom out with the rear axle hitting the rear frame rails and the front stops hitting the strut tops. This is a good way end up spining the car when the rear axle goes soild and you go into snap oversteer. IMO this is not a good thing. Sure you can get by driving it on the street but why put up with these problems?

The FRPPFR3 Pak isnota greatdeal,for about the same money you canget a much better suspension setupthan what Fordsells as their own along withmuch better adjustable D-Spec or Koni Sportdampers. The Eibach anti-roll bars in the FRPP kit are fine as are the nice looking and stiff billetdrop-links for the rear bar, all remainingkit bits andhardware istop shelf stuff.

Here is a round numberbreak down.

$1,350The FRPPM-2005-FR3, includes:
[ul][*]Eibach Pro-Kit Springs, too low messes up geometry, too softbottoms out onframe and struts[*]Multi-Matic Tuned Dampers, not adjustable, good damper rates butharsh ride on street[*]Eibach Anti-Roll Bar Kit, well balancedhandlinganti-roll bar kitwith nice hardware[*]FRPP STB (Strut Tie Bar), totally uselessonS197 chassis street cars[/ul]
$ 35 Eibach Camber Bolt Kit, required to set more sporting camber specs
$240 Steeda Street/Comp Adjustable Panhard Bar w/HD PB Brace, improves rear axle location for improved handling and steering feel

$1,625 plus laborORinstall it yourself only needscommon SAE/Metric mechanic's hand tools

Here is my take on what you should buy for about the same money. This is a good core setup andwill give you a MUCH better handling car with much wider suitability to task from drag racing to road racing to long distance touring and do it more comfortaly and quietly thanthe upgraded FRPP FR3 kit listed.

$1,405 The F1Fan Core Suspension Pak includes:
[ul][*]D-Spec DSP12 adjustable dampers,3 minutes from race track level controlto touring comfort[*]SteedaSport Springs, less geometry changegives better steering and handling,better ride and handling due toadditional suspension travel and nobottoming[*]Steeda adjustable 35mm Front anti-roll bar &22mm rear bar, excellent balanced bar package[*]FRPP GT500 LCA's, eliminateswheel hop,reduces rear axle compliance, O.E. levelNVH[*]Steeda Tubular UCA w/3-piece poly bushing and stepped UCA mount spacers, eliminates wheel hop, reduced rear axle compliance, O.E. level NVH, shortenedcorrects pinion angle for 1" drop[/ul]


$ 35 Eibach Camber Bolt Kit, required to set more sporting camber specs, improved front-end grip
$ 240 Steeda Street/Comp Adjustable Panhard Bar w/HD PB Brace, improved rear axle location for improved handling and steering feel

$1,680 plus labor OR self install, the installation is a bit harder because of the UCA installation but nothing you cannot do in your own garage with a floor jack and common mechanic's hand tools, shop air helps but is not necessary. I do it all the time!

What you will have with the F1Fan Core Suspension Pak vs. the FRPP FR3 Handling Pak is a better handling, better riding, non-scraping, quieter drivingcar with betterlaunch performance with better durability and no drama for about the same money. Which would you prefer?

HTH!

[fuertemustang]

ORIGINAL: F1Fan

Hi Jim,

Sure lots of people have done just that and they have found what I mentioned a good handling car witha slight touch of understeer in slow to mediumturns and a hard ride.Like the stock S197GT's dampers Ford has seen fit to build dampers with a "sporty" feelwith damping curves that are amuch too stiffin bump and a bit soft in rebound for a DD street car and being non-adjustableno way to adjust or tune them for driving or roadconditions. The FRPPdamper curvesmake for a good handling caron the track and an unhappydriver everyday going to and from work even on reasonably smooth roads. The FRPP marketed Multi-Matic tuned dampers are notgood on the race track butnot a good option for daily driven street cars.

The otherissue isthe Eibach Pro-Kit springs which are IMO and experience too low with less than ideal spring rate curvesforreal world and daily driven cars that have to deal with driveways and underground parking stuctures, my car was scraping all the time and I was did not likescraping the bottom of myfrontbumper cover, rocker panelsand frame rails. The spring rate is too soft for much of the travel and this causes the car to bottom out with the rear axle hitting the rear frame rails and the front stops hitting the strut tops. This is a good way end up spining the car when the rear axle goes soild and you go into snap oversteer. IMO this is not a good thing. Sure you can get by driving it on the street but why put up with these problems?

The FRPPFR3 Pak isnota greatdeal,for about the same money you canget a much better suspension setupthan what Fordsells as their own along withmuch better adjustable D-Spec or Koni Sportdampers. The Eibach anti-roll bars in the FRPP kit are fine as are the nice looking and stiff billetdrop-links for the rear bar, all remainingkit bits andhardware istop shelf stuff.

Here is a round numberbreak down.

$1,350The FRPPM-2005-FR3, includes: [ul][*]Eibach Pro-Kit Springs, too low messes up geometry, too softbottoms out onframe and struts[*]Multi-Matic Tuned Dampers, not adjustable, good damper rates butharsh ride on street[*]Eibach Anti-Roll Bar Kit, well balancedhandlinganti-roll bar kitwith nice hardware[*]FRPP STB (Strut Tie Bar), totally uselessonS197 chassis street cars[/ul]
$ 35 Eibach Camber Bolt Kit, required to set more sporting camber specs
$240 Steeda Street/Comp Adjustable Panhard Bar w/HD PB Brace, improves rear axle location for improved handling and steering feel

$1,625 plus laborORinstall it yourself only needscommon SAE/Metric mechanic's hand tools

Here is my take on what you should buy for about the same money. This is a good core setup andwill give you a MUCH better handling car with much wider suitability to task from drag racing to road racing to long distance touring and do it more comfortaly and quietly thanthe upgraded FRPP FR3 kit listed.

$1,405 The F1Fan Core Suspension Pak includes: [ul][*]D-Spec DSP12 adjustable dampers,3 minutes from race track level controlto touring comfort[*]SteedaSport Springs, less geometry changegives better steering and handling,better ride and handling due toadditional suspension travel and nobottoming[*]Steeda adjustable 35mm Front anti-roll bar &22mm rear bar, excellent balanced bar package[*]FRPP GT500 LCA's, eliminateswheel hop,reduces rear axle compliance, O.E. levelNVH[*]Steeda Tubular UCA w/3-piece poly bushing and stepped UCA mount spacers, eliminates wheel hop, reduced rear axle compliance, O.E. level NVH, shortenedcorrects pinion angle for 1" drop[/ul]


$ 35 Eibach Camber Bolt Kit, required to set more sporting camber specs, improved front-end grip
$ 240 Steeda Street/Comp Adjustable Panhard Bar w/HD PB Brace, improved rear axle location for improved handling and steering feel

$1,680 plus labor OR self install, the installation is a bit harder because of the UCA installation but nothing you cannot do in your own garage with a floor jack and common mechanic's hand tools, shop air helps but is not necessary. I do it all the time!

What you will have with the F1Fan Core Suspension Pak vs. the FRPP FR3 Handling Pak is a better handling, better riding, non-scraping, quieter drivingcar with betterlaunch performance with better durability and no drama for about the same money. Which would you prefer?

HTH!

what kind for shocks and struts would you recommend for that setup?

[F1Fan]

ORIGINAL: fuertemustang

what kind for shocks and struts would you recommend for that setup?

Hi fuertemustang,

As in mypost, TokicoD-Specs for their wider suitability and adjustability for almost any sort of paved use. But if you are only intolapping sessions and track time at the local road racing track Koni's may server you better butthey will cost you in terms of an extra $200 anda stiffer ride in day to day use. The differences are noticable but not so huge that you cannot use either brand of damper with good results.

HTH!