quorum

Does it matter to you that the upcoming ZL1 will have Magnetic Ride Suspension? Do you wish it was an option on the GT500? If so - why? If not - why not?

Thanks!

BlackBetty

Nope! I like my cars simple... standard one or two way adjustable dampers and springs are my preference. This is just another thing to break and repair later. I'd rather just pop a new shock in when necessary.

Norm Peterson

Not particularly.

There's something about computer-controlled vehicle dynamics that makes me a lot uneasy, and this is just one more example.

What would the default setting be in the complete or partial loss of computer control? How might the car's unassisted handling balance shift in such cases, transient handling in particular? What do you suppose happens as the damper fluid passages wear, which I'd expect might happen faster with the magnetorheologic fluid containing bits of magnetic material in suspension?

Make that two votes for the dampers to be left user-adjustable.


Norm

daredevil95

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...zl1/index.html

I wouldn't mind having MRC. At a click of a button you will have a nice firm/road hugging suspension when needed and with another click of a button.... a grand touring ride. I'm not sure but, it should loosen and tighten the traction control settings or have the otionp to turn it off completely.....the traction control feature could be fun on the twisties. Definitely a nice option but, depends on the price? If I was the type that never modified my cars I would go with the MRC.

BUT

We could make cars handle better then cars equipped with MRC with aftermarket suspension kits and not be bothered with the electronic gizmos....I prefer this direction.

foolio2k4

MRC is a world of difference. Its a wonderful system. I've driven the CTS V with it and all I can say is WOW. the ZL1 seems like a big step up. I hope ford can counter that now!

JIM5.0

Oh, it will not be long before Ford will have to ante up and offer such a suspension bit too, especially when Dodge begins to put the same stuff in their cars. It's pretty much almost an axiom of car equipment competition.

Will it happen soon? I have no clue. But to remain competitive, especially when the handling and ride ante is raised, yes, Ford will step up too.

jahudso2

Norm, I think you are overreacting a little bit with the computer control. The controls even in the automotive industry are amazing nowadays. Have you driven a new BMW with M-dynamic mode for stability control? Instead of limiting you to the level of grip, it will let you put the car into a powerslide, and keep you from applying too much throttle to spin. The level of control accuracy and stability is ridiculous. As far as the magnetic dampers, I am sure they have done FMEAs on all the failure modes, and have default strategies which would maximize safety in the event wires were cut, ect. The default strategy would likely be setup for understeer, since that is the easiest for novice drivers to correct. Even if a failure event upset the vehicle, stability control could still catch it (unless your brake lines are cut, which in case you are screwed either way). I understand your concern, but manufacturers nowadays can't just introduce cars with huge safety concerns - oh, unless they are Toyota

Norm Peterson

Quote:

Originally Posted by jahudso2

Norm, I think you are overreacting a little bit with the computer control. The controls even in the automotive industry are amazing nowadays.

Could be, but from my point of view, only by a little bit. I've managed to cope very well with only the purely mechanical and driver control input solutions available to cope with vehicle dynamics issues for over 45 years. When driving, particularly if you're driving at least moderately hard, linearity (or perhaps gradual curvilinearity?) is your friend. Mechanical wear is a gradual effect that you can mostly "stay current" with. Electrical "wear" is not, and you can't. Hardware breakage favors neither the purely mechanical nor the electronically assisted.

Quote:

it will let you put the car into a powerslide, and keep you from applying too much throttle to spin.

Yes, I know you can program electronically-controlled behavior that you couldn't realistically achieve by pure mechanical means. As long as everything is working properly. No, I haven't had the opportunity to drive anything with M-dynamic. But as good as it may be, I wouldn't want my own skills to lapse as would unavoidably happen if some computer simply wouldn't ever let me do something and find the incipient limits for myself. These electronic "assists" aren't entirely free of (presumably unintended) consequences.

Separately, I am more than a little concerned that you could design a vehicle that would be inherently unstable without the electronics. Toyota's fairly recent episode with the Lexus GX460 SUVs comes to mind; where the corrective action ended up being a software "fix". To me, that's fixing the band-aid because you're still bleeding.

Quote:

As far as the magnetic dampers, I am sure they have done FMEAs on all the failure modes, and have default strategies which would maximize safety in the event wires were cut, ect. The default strategy would likely be setup for understeer, since that is the easiest for novice drivers to correct. Even if a failure event upset the vehicle, stability control could still catch it (unless your brake lines are cut, which in case you are screwed either way). I understand your concern, but manufacturers nowadays can't just introduce cars with huge safety concerns - oh, unless they are Toyota

What if the damping tuning itself - which would certainly be set for a wider range of preferences than just mine or even my wife's - isn't particularly to my liking? We've had some experience with OE cockpit-adjustable damping, and found it to be too soft for our taste when set to anything less than full firm. Even in constant-speed straight-ahead driving where the dampers are only having to cope with road surface unevenness.

Here's something that's loosely related, in that it identifies who benefits from these developments. The link was posted on another forum recently. Near as I can tell, it was written during 2002, so I am aware that refinements have been made since. But I doubt that the philosophy behind it all has.

http://members.rennlist.com/jandreas...fVDC-BOSCH.pdf

The first paragraph on the second page identifies the type of driver that these systems are primarily intended to benefit as those who don't ever drive very hard, are uncomfortable with and don't understand nonlinear behavior and can't deal with the sense of not being completely "stuck down to the pavement". These are the drivers who won't instinctively do the right things when things threaten to go badly. Or, I suppose, those who are distracted enough that the threat of badness about to happen gets too far ahead of them.

I'm not at all trying to claim to be anywhere near professional test driver level (mentioned in that same paragraph as not being typical drivers) - I might be a mid-pack autocrosser. But I do drive hard enough from time to time to feel slip angles start to build and hard enough to get into the tire transitional region as opposed to always remaining within the linear range of tire behavior. To the best of my recollection, I've made exactly one "wrong" control input related decision on the street, ever, and that involved lift-throttle in a hard left turn as I was running out of pavement (I still have the mental video of that one of about 35 years ago). I've gotten "uncatchably loose" at autocross only once, though I've thrown away a couple more autocross runs knowing in real time that I'd be spinning if I kept trying to make the upcoming gate.


Norm

daredevil95

"The first paragraph on the second page identifies the type of driver that these systems are primarily intended to benefit as those who don't ever drive very hard, are uncomfortable with and don't understand nonlinear behavior and can't deal with the sense of not being completely "stuck down to the pavement". These are the drivers who won't instinctively do the right things when things threaten to go badly. Or, I suppose, those who are distracted enough that the threat of badness about to happen gets too far ahead of them."

It's nice to have if your NOT a driver but, it would be a hindrance to guys like us....that is most of us!

foolio2k4

the percentage of people that will not like or believe the damper tuner is not to their liking is probably less than 5%.

For those minorities, Feel free to upgrade. But for the vast majority of people, the magnetic suspension is a major improvement.