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Factory Roush vs. Roush Clone--Buyer Beware?

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Old 02-09-2014, 04:37 AM   #41
Mr. D
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Lil Roush,

First of all I have not taken your opinion personally. You've been very polite in expressing your disagreement with me. I won't make many more posts about the issue as I'm already getting called a "troll" for expressing a different opinion and I don't want to upset people!

The name of the thread seems to advance the position that there are only two types (1.) "Serial Numbered" Factory Roushs and CLONES! I think that approach devalues a lot of very nice Roush Mustangs! My argument is that there is another class of Roush Mustangs that deserve recognition and appreciation. My desire to make my point has very little with my own car, but more as to the general approach towards Mustangs modified with Roush or Shelby guarrantees by approved Roush Dealers and mechanics! They are Roushs & Shelbys even though they were not modified at the factory!

I guess what I would like to see is a classification other than "clone, or Mustang with Roush parts" used for cars built under the supervision of Roush and Shelby that are done after the car was delivered to a Ford Dealer. To me they are a Roush, although not a factory Roush!

As to your question about what Roush said regarding such cars, frankly I don't remember any exact wording since it was in 2008, but Roush made it very clear that the company supported the modifications and being done by one of their authorized Roush dealers the car was considered a Roush under their warrantee responsibillty. Both the Ford Dealership were I bought my Mustang and another independent shop where both verified as authorized to do Roush builds covered by Roush legally! Cars like this often have the same money spent on them in modification as a factory Roush and should not be classed in the same way as a car some kid has glued on a couple of Roush decals in his Dad's garage. I don't think it is good for the advancement of interest in Roush Mustangs to say these cars are not a Roush! If a person buys a new Mustang and has a authorized Roush Dealer or Shelby do a build involving $20 to 25K it is not a Mustang with some Roush parts. It's a Roush!

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(Please don't take this as a slam or criticism in any way, but just an explanation) The reason I did not buy a Roush serial numbered car is that I wanted the stock body with Roush mechanical mod's! I'm old school and I didn't want the newer Roush body mods with black wheels, etc! I wanted the stock '08 look like the classic Mustangs cars back in the day! I have the money to buy any Roush or Shelby Mustang I want easily, but it was the only way to get the Mustang style I wanted.

I guess this whole discussion started out by my "talking up" the option of buying a new Mustang and having an authorized Roush Dealer upgrade it with all the mechanical Roush mods from supercharger to brakes to exhaust, suspension, etc. It makes a hell of a car, but with the stock body which I prefer.... as you can see from my car! LOL! Originally I went to Shelby in as Vegas to have performance mods done, but Shelby would not work on the car unless I had all the body mods done at a ridiculous price mainly for the number plate! The idea of a Shelby or Roush with body mods, but little more than stock performance seems like a "serial numbered clone" more than my car! Lot's of Ford Dealers sell them, but I'm all about the performance with the stock look! Authorized Roush Dealers will meet that need and create the car you want! I think that should be celebrated.... not called a Mustang with Roush parts! A Mustang with Roush decals and very few real mods can be called a joke.... if the owner calls it a Roush!


My comments were never meant to devalue "number plated" factory built Roush's and Shelby's! I guess some misunderstood my point and thought I was saying my car is just like yours! It isn't, but I think it should be considered a Roush because it was built by an authorized Roush Dealer, under Roush Specifications with a Roush guarrantee!

I'm done! Sorry if I offended any Roush owners as that was not intended!
..... and my bold print is not intended as yelling! It's to emphasize the main point as it as used any place but on the internet! LOL!

I think I made my point clearly, so let's just agree to disagree in a friendly way and let it go..... Then you won't be "Feeding The troll!" as some people might say! LOL!

Change of subject..... "So what do you think of the 2015 Mustang.\?" really?

Here's a picture of my Roush diesel! Modifications being done in a shop in China! They are waiting for Roush decals to arrive so I can take to a cruise night in Shanghai! LOL!
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Old 02-10-2014, 09:16 AM   #42
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Well, just as relevant, but simply changing product, in this case, a watch;
A pair of watches...
The first is an Omega sea master Professional, 222.60.46.50.01.001
in 18K gold including bracelet, numbered and serialized, 600 meter water resistance (2,000 ft ) lifetime warranty, priced north of $60,000.
The second watch is identical in looks, feel, weight...if I put both in your hand, you will NOT be able to tell which one is a clone, and which one is the real deal.
The clone is the one I usually wear when I am doing any physical work on the house, at work, on the car, you get the idea...I don't care what really happens to the clone. Movement is fully automatic and keeps pretty good time. Price of the clone is miniscule to the original.
The original is the real tough nut, down to a triple coated sapphire crystal that, short of a diamond run over it, is impossible to scratch, BUT being 18K gold, is quite soft and easily scratched ( also easy enough to have a scratch polished out ).
It's fully mechanical movement with a low friction Co- Axial escapement is a highly refined "engine".
I can easily sell the clone for the real deal, BUT...it is NOT the real deal, the fact REALLY is, I would be misleading you if I tried to sell you this clone as the real deal, regardless that BOTH watches clearly state Omega Sea Master Co-Axial Chronometer.
One of the more important aspects of ANY serialized item, is it's traceability and disclosure of it's original roots, plain and simple.
If this planet's humanity was wired to disclose nothing but honesty, we would not need these checks and balances to authenticate the "real" from the "fake" would we?
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Old 02-10-2014, 09:49 PM   #43
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5.0GTCS you make a good point. An item that is made or rarer materials, superior craftsmanship, or exclusive material then, yes, it should be valued more than a look a like of inferior materials, craftsmanship, or accessibility.

The problem is that Roush makes 99% of their car products accessible to everyone, and the other 1% comprises of badge/plaque jobs for their exclusive cars that can easily be replicated. A motivated person could make a perfect clone sans being included in Roush's Excel file that keeps track of what VINs match with cars they actually worked on.

If you use the same exact parts and assemble them in the exact specification as an original the only difference is the serial number. Roush technicians throw on a blower, upload a PCM tune, install interior upgrades, and install external body pieces all of which are available to buy via their website.

Your example is a great one, since the watch clone isn't comprised of the same rare materials or build quality. In my example the two items in question started and ended in the same regards minus the fact that Roush technicians didn't touch one of the two and assign it a number.

Prominence doesn't matter to some, but it does to others. I own an original Roush car. I didn't make my decision to buy it based on prominence but price. If a really great well documented clone came my way at a cheaper price point I probably would have bought it versus the one I have, since in essence they are exactly the same.

Going back to the OP, I hope that she can find satisfaction even if she cannot gain back what she thinks she should monetarily. I think it will be a stretch for her to get anything more.
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Old 02-11-2014, 04:52 AM   #44
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Some seem to continually miss the points I made.... again!

1. No one is suggesting that a serial numbered factory Roush and a Mustang modified to a large degree by an authorized Roush Dealer with a warrantee are the same, or should be valued the same! (I hope this point is clear.... finally!)

2. A Clone is an identical copy! If a watch or car is a cheap knockoff with "lesser quality" than the original, Made with poor quality parts and is intended to mislead people it should be called a clone. No argument!

The disagreement is that I believe a Mustang built by an authorized Rous Dealer with a Roush warrantee including $15 to 20K of genuine Roush Mustang Parts should NOT be called a clone like some second rate car on which a kid put some decals. The same applies to Shelby Mustangs built by Shelby, of Las Vegas, or by some other authorized Shelby shop. Calling such cars clones is not even accurate because they usually DO NOT attempt to copy, or imitate Roush Serialed Numbered Factory models! They are a Roush Mustang of their own type. Unfortunately those who own serial numbered Roush Mustangs seem to think these cars cannot have the Roush name attached to them or it will lower the value of a serial numbered car. That's too bad because it demeans a lot of nice cars as if they are cheap immitations. They are in many cases fine quality Mustangs that are simply a different animal from a serial numbered Roush. Roush owners I met at car shows and cruise nights understand the difference without thinking the car is a clone!

I'm not an expert on Roush Model through the years, but I don't think the Mustang I own (below) makes any attempt at all to be a copy/clone of any model of serial numbered Roush! In fact it looks far more like a stock Ford Mustang GT model like the"California Special" or a Shelby. If a Mustang owner goes to an authorized Roush dealer and has the vast majority of Roush performance modifications done with a warrantee from Roush..... it should not offend you guys to let it be called a Roush! There is no attempt to make it a clone of a Factory Roush serial numbered car. It is a different animal all together! With due respect for your cars, I didn't buy a Roush Serial numbered factory car because I didn't want the Roush Body works and styling and the exact suspension that comes from Roush.

As part of the Roush performance package I paid for, my Mustang has a Roush Dash Plaque indicating the Specific Roush Performance Level installed on my car!

Sorry, I'm not taking it off! It looks cool! LOL!

Thanx for the discussion, and let's all enjoy our cars...... whatever they are called! Mine's called an After Market Roush Build!

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Old 02-11-2014, 06:55 AM   #45
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Mr D
You got a seriously gorgeous ride, somehow I don't feel sorry you 're stuck driving that one LOL!
The REAL point is the predicament the original Op finds himself/herself in regarding this sale.... as in my previous first post, ANY attorney worth his salt can present this case in a court of law and show deceit and fraud on the part of the seller;
Written proof that what the seller was selling was a genuine Roush ( genuine emphases certification and serialization ) If those items were NOT included in the sale and there was no written verification to the contrary given at time of sale by the seller, then there is a strong case to me made.
The time and $$$ needed to pursue this through proper channels.
The work "clone" in this case holds no water, what does, is the certification and serialization to the product.
Those are the two items that hold value from the standpoint of "genuine".
If this was my situation, and it really made me feel I was ripped off, I probably would pursue this through legal channels.
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Old 02-12-2014, 02:29 AM   #46
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(Bold print is not yelling, but rather main points!)

It's hard to know whether the cases listed were intentional fraud. I don't know everything about Roush, but I certainly would not sell my car saying that it had been sent to the Roush factory. I don't know if Roush converts used Mustangs at "the Roush Factory". If I was advertising my car for sale I would make sure the buyer knew the difference between an authorized Roush Dealer/shop Roush Conversion and a Roush Factory Mustang with a serial number. Then they can decide the value of the car themselves! Buyer beware!

As I've said, the whole problem is Roush, as well all of us Roush enthusiasts not making a clear separation in terms between (1.) A Mustang the Roush factory converts into a Roush Mustang giving it a serial number, and (2.) a Mustang converted by a authorized Roush Dealer without a serial number. It is very confusing because of the lack of clear terms. Clone doesn't cut it! Here's the problem with the term clone. As a retired biology teacher I will remind you that a clone is exactly the same as the cell it was cloned from. Zero difference! My car is not a clone because it is not like a Roush Mustang! To add even more confusion, a person could say that every Mustang built is a clone of the original prototype! Clone is a demeaning term most people see as a term of a product with low quality! Who wants to say, "I have a 'Roush Clone' I spent an additional $20K on" LOL!

Here's a confusing example:

When I bought My '08 GT an authorized Roush Dealer ordered a package with almost all the Roush performance parts except a spring change because I wanted a soft, stock ride since I wasn't going to track/race the car.

The package came with all the performance parts plus a "Dash Plaque" as that says the following:

Jack Roush (signature)
ROUSH
"Performance" Stage one
(I guess the plaque should have said Roush Performance Stage One Clone! LOL! Roush also gave me the HP rating based on the parts I put on including a different CAI setup!)

Now, I've seen other Roush Mustangs that are "Stage One" (not performance) referring to added body modifications with no supercharger, exhaust, CAI, etc. Confusing!

Buyer beware and evaluated the car based on the equipment it has and if you want a serial number plate! I've learned most of what I know about Roush after putting my car together! I may buy a 2014 Cobra and send you guys a picture of the number plate! Then I'll talk down cars like mine because I'll be on the other side! LOL!

Bottom line..... I love my Mustang and you love yours! A good place to leave it! So, "Don't Feed The Troll!" I guess I'm the troll! LOL! By Y'all

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Old 02-16-2014, 07:38 AM   #47
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I think I have discovered the issue.

Mr. D, if your car has a Roush plaque, it was done by mistake of an uninformed dealer. I think it's causing a lot of confusion for you, and I apologize for that. Sad as it is, many dealers don't fully understand what they are doing.

The Stage 1 and Stage 2 dash plaque can be purchased from the Roush website. The Stage 3 plaque was never offered to the general public. In fact, I have extra dash plaques in case I ever lost one in my piles of 'extra' Roush parts. The Stage 1 Roush Mustang was the V6 or GT with the body kit and exhaust. What you purchased was what the dealer called the stage 1 blower kit - the entry level M90 kit from Roush. They are two different things.

I agree a CLONE should be an exact copy of a serialized Roush car. It will never be a 'real' serialized Roush. I have seen several good CLONES, which this thread origianlly started out being about.

Any car with Roush parts done as aftermarket enhancements (even at at authorized Roush dealer with warrenty) is still just a Mustang with Roush parts. This is what your car falls under: A GT with a Roush supercharger. You do not have "almost all of the Roush parts" on your car. In fact, you have very minimal Roush parts on your car.


As an example, this is the dash plaque on my old 2000 Stage 1 Roush. I actually had to replace it when I got the car, as someone had removed the original. I bought it right from the Roush website.

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This is the door jam serial number. It's old and beat up from years of track abuse, but you can't get replacements from Roush to avoid people faking them.

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This is the Stage 2 plaque on the dash of my 1998 Stage 2 Mustang.

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Old 02-16-2014, 07:48 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. D View Post
As I've said, the whole problem is Roush, as well all of us Roush enthusiasts not making a clear separation in terms between (1.) A Mustang the Roush factory converts into a Roush Mustang giving it a serial number, and (2.) a Mustang converted by a authorized Roush Dealer without a serial number. It is very confusing because of the lack of clear terms. Clone doesn't cut it!
I think your dealer set you off with bad info. Let me clear that up for you.

1)A Roush Mustang made by Roush gets a serial number. For the SN95 cars, there were cars made as serialized Roushs by outsourced authorized locations outside of the main Roush plant in Michigan.

2)There are no more Roush Mustangs made by dealers. This ended with the change to the S197 platform in 2005. If an authorized dealer puts Roush parts on a Mustang, it's NOT a Roush. It is a Mustang with Roush parts (and warrenty). No serial number means not a Roush. Is there a real world difference? To some yes, to some no. The difference will come in value at the end of the day. A well documented authentic Roush will pull more resale value and hold higher value longer - especially with the rare/limited edition cars.

A Mustang with all of the parts Roush would have installed would be a clone. This can be done by an authorized dealer or by the owner.
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Old 02-19-2014, 01:50 PM   #49
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authorized Roush Dealer/shop Roush Conversion
Ive been watching this thread for a while and I keep seeing you throw this out there like its something special.

All it means is that the dealer is allowed to sell "NEW" Roush vehicles. Just like you couldnt go to your local Mom and Pop Ford dealer and buy a new Saleen or SVT, you had to find a authorized dealer.
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Old 02-19-2014, 02:17 PM   #50
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My two cents:

If the car is legit, it will be serialized by the entity that created it. So, if your Stage whatever has a Roush serial number then it can and should be recognized as a Roush vehicle regardless of what stage it is.

If your car does not have a serialized plate, the mods may or may not have been installed by Roush or a Roush authorized entity but it is still an unserialized vehicle and therefore cannot be considered a true whatever it is.

As the buyer you have a right to decide what you want when the information is properly presented. If you made a decision based on false or misleading information, that can constitute fraud, especially if you in good faith did your due diligence. Due diligence is the gray area here.

For most gear heads we know where and what to look at. The expectation from a court would be higher for us because "we know cars" We're car buffs. The average person though does not though so for the OP, the expectations would/could be lower. If the seller had enough lights and showmanship they could be seen as the expert and in that case would be seen as fraudulently selling the car to an unsuspecting buyer.

Most of the higher end models of Saleen, Roush and others hold or increase their value because of that serial number. That is a clear message that the serial number is important. I as a gear head would never pay extra for a clone. For a serialized car though, I may. Just depends on what value it has to me. Value on serialized cars is based on the Market demand, not NADA, KBB or other.

If you want a true value for your car based on demand get a car appraiser. They have their thumb more on the market for specialty cars than any other mass data system like KBB etc.
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Old 02-24-2014, 06:46 PM   #51
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Default Real Rousch?

I am bidding on a 1996 Ford Rousch that is supposed to be the real thing. The engine has a plate with no "signature" on the build plate. The vin is: 1FALP47V2TF112159. How do i find out if this is for real or a clone? Thanks.
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Old 02-27-2014, 06:18 PM   #52
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Post a link to the ad. I can find out for you. VIN won't mean anything.

Oh, and it's ROUSH... no "C".
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Old 02-27-2014, 06:26 PM   #53
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This one? Black Roush Cobra?


It always scares me when they can't spell the name of the car they are selling.
It looks legit. This would be one of the VERY rare Roush Cobras. I'm trying to figure out what wing is on it. It's not the stock wing, nor the Roush wing. I wish they had better pics of it (wheels, side skirts, exhaust etc...). It's not really a well done ad for how rare that car is.
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Old 02-28-2014, 07:56 AM   #54
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Default Clone is an inaccurate word!

Roush Owners with a serial numbered Mustang should not feel the need to use the degrading and inaccurate word "Clone" unless they are referring to a Mustang that has attempted to be passed off as an exact copy of a serial numbered Roush. Then it is a clone!

My car is clearly not a Clone and it is accepted by Roush as a Roush built and guaranteed car. Roush does not give Roush/Ford driveline guarantees to cobbled together backyard clones! I checked that with Roush before building the car!
I called Roush and they said the determining factor whether a car is considered a Roush legally is determined by whether or not it has a Roush/Ford driveline guarantee! There is no need for owners of serial numbered cars to be petty and degrade such cars by calling them clones. When an authorized Roush shop builds a GT with a Roush supercharger, Strut Tower Bars, Supercharger CAI units, & other engine parts, big brakes, suspension and other misc. parts with a Roush/Ford guarantee it deserves to be called a Roush!

In example, my car below makes no attempt to imitate or pass itself off as any Roush Model I am aware of. In fact it looks more like a Shelby! In fact I didn't want Roush body works panels and that is exactly why it was built by a authorized Roush Dealer instead by the Roush factory. I prefer the Ford Mustang Body Style!

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T If someday I sell my car I will certainly not lie and call it a Roush clone! It is no where near a clone! It is an alternate, authorized Roush Mustang build. The only real issue is that we should see that potential buyers don't buy misrepresented Mustangs. Buyer beware and understand what you are getting for your money! Believe it or not, some Mustang guys perfer the performance to added on ground works body parts! I see serial numbered Roush Mustangs sold at Ford Dealers that have close to stock motors and only added on Roush body parts! To each his own! I don't say they are not a real Roush!

Maybe we can agree it is a Mustang.... but maybe not! LOL!

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Old 02-28-2014, 12:43 PM   #55
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Post a link to the ad. I can find out for you. VIN won't mean anything.

Oh, and it's ROUSH... no "C".
Wouldn't the VIN tell the hx of the car? Doesn't roush tie their seeial number to it in the record keeping?
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Old 02-28-2014, 05:17 PM   #56
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Not all first gen cars got serial numbers. It's why some of us old timers fight so hard to track the original cars (95-98). Some still have the original paperwork from the Roush build with them. Some are well documented due to how rare they are.
Sadly, many slipped through the cracks over the years. Real record keeping at Roush started in 2001. Prior to that is VERY hit and miss.
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Old 02-28-2014, 05:23 PM   #57
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Mr D, we get what you are saying. But your car is not a ROUSH nor a 'clone'. You have a Mustang GT with a Roush blower that was installed by a Roush authorized dealer. End of story. Say anything you want, but it won't make it a Roush. I'm sorry.

The term 'clone' is in no way degrading. It's a term used to describe an exact replica of a car. Clone/replica/copy... pick a term. It's all the same.

I am curious as to who at Roush Performance told you this? Was is someone at Roush, or was it someone at your Roush authorized dealer (who also mislabled your car with a plaque it shouldn't have)?
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1998 Roush: M112'd Aluminum block 4.6L 2V 6 speed track car
1999 SVT: Mostly stockish
1970 Mach 1: Resto-modded monster

2000 Roush #5004 - World's FIRST M112'd V6 Mustang. Sold, but not forgotten.
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Old 03-01-2014, 05:01 AM   #58
Mr. D
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LilRoush View Post

I am curious as to who at Roush Performance told you this? Was is someone at Roush, or was it someone at your Roush authorized dealer (who also mislabled your car with a plaque it shouldn't have)?
I talked to a manager/executive at Roush in late '08. I was inquiring about Mustangs sold with no serial numbers as new Roushs at local Ford Dealers! I asked how to tell whether Roush considered the car a Roush? If a new Mustang is upgraded with performance parts like Superchargers and other speed parts by an Roush authorized dealer. It will be given a Roush Driveline warrantee and it is legally a Roush to the Jack Roush Company!!

If Roush considers it a Roush its good enough for me! Common sense says that if you take your new Mustang to an authorized Roush dealer and spend $15 to $20K you should expect it to be called a Roush! It is "no" the more valuable factory Serial Numbered Roush, but it is an authorized shop Roush!
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Old 03-01-2014, 06:21 AM   #59
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Who was that person?
From my experience with the Roush Performance company, they love all sorts of Mustangs - especially ones enhanced with aftermarket from Roush. In over a decade working with Roush products / cars, I've never heard of anyone from Roush calling a non-serialized car a real Roush. I'm very curious as the nature of the statement and who it was from.
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1998 Roush: M112'd Aluminum block 4.6L 2V 6 speed track car
1999 SVT: Mostly stockish
1970 Mach 1: Resto-modded monster

2000 Roush #5004 - World's FIRST M112'd V6 Mustang. Sold, but not forgotten.

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Old 03-01-2014, 10:44 AM   #60
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So if I take my car to a dealer authorized to sell Saleen mustangs and they install a Saleen blower , does that make my car a Saleen!
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Old 03-01-2014, 10:44 AM
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