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Saleen, Roush and Boss Mustangs Discussions on Saleen, Roush, and late model Shinoda Boss Models within. SVT models, check the 4.6L section.

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Old 02-03-2014, 06:01 PM   #31
LilRoush
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The defining factor that makes it a "real" Roush is the serial number given to it by Roush when it was built. Roush will tell you the same thing - their cars have serial numbers for a reason. They also see the other cars as Mustangs with Roush parts. You can make a REALLY good copy of a Roush - but you can't fake a serial number. (Ok, you can, but you see what I'm saying.)
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Old 02-03-2014, 07:08 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LilRoush View Post
The defining factor that makes it a "real" Roush is the serial number given to it by Roush when it was built. Roush will tell you the same thing - their cars have serial numbers for a reason. They also see the other cars as Mustangs with Roush parts. You can make a REALLY good copy of a Roush - but you can't fake a serial number. (Ok, you can, but you see what I'm saying.)
I agree with what you are saying in terms of my #1 type Mustang that has been converted at the Roush factory to a "number plated car". I just maintain that Roush allows the buyer to create a car with Roush performance without some of the body modifications, etc. that I as a customer did not want. I like the look of the original Mustang without body changes! I don't think it serves any real benefit for owners of Roush Factory Mustangs to make a big issue and denying that Mustangs converted by authorized Roush dealers under Roush specifications cannot be considered a Roush Mustang. I am obviously not talking about simply a Mustang with a Roush decal. (Again, no one should misrepresent a Mustang without a registered number plate as a Roush Factory car.) If my car is a Roush Clone than Roush was involved in making my clone as it provided me with a Roush warrantee good at Ford or a Roush authorized dealer for all the work and modifications done by the Roush authorized dealer.

I'm involved with a Corvette Restoration business and we see "original" early Corvettes that are dangerous junkers sitting next to concours quality clones worth a very small percentage of the "original" junker. Due to GM's lack of keeping old production records the only "real" difference that can be found is original sales paperwork which is often unavailable. Also many "real" cars are called clones/fakes because GM replaced a engine block or other numbered part before it even left the factory. We have found Corvettes that can be document as having the original block from the factory, but the numbers do not correspond correctly as GM was not concerned about matching numbers when pulling and replacing an engine.

Bottom line and my last comment! The value of a Roush factory number plated car does not have to be "defended" by demeaning or denying the obvious value of a Mustang built by an authorized Roush Dealer following Roush specifications and with a Roush guarrantee.

When I go to a car show I never say anything negative about another person's car unless I'm asked by an owner in terms of how to improve it! Everyone's car is their pride and joy, whether it has a "serial number plate" or not and it probably should be evaluated based on its quality. To each his own.... as long as you don't try to cheat someone my misrepresenting a car in a sale!
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Old 02-04-2014, 03:53 PM   #33
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If what your saying about addding parts from Roush making it a Roush, then along that same line, adding SVT Cobra wheels bought from my local SVT authorized Ford dealer now makes the car an SVT Cobra. It doesn't. It's nothing more than an owner modified car with SVT parts.
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Old 02-04-2014, 05:03 PM   #34
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1: Most attorneys offer a free 1 hr consultation ( basically, they want to evaluate weather they have a strong case or not, before proceeding).
2: A lot of merit regarding fraud is how the sale was worded AND advertised, if it clearly insinuated the car in question was indeed a Roush built and serialized car, then that becomes misleading and fraudulent advertising.

3: By default, if your lawyer wins the case, he automatically asks for legal fees to be awarded, and usually that request is granted by the presiding judge, HOWEVER you will have to secure the attorney through your own retainer...( usually and customary, first 8 hrs x hourly rate of attorney; say, $150.00/hr x 8, $1,200)

4:Locate and discuss your case with an attorney that specializes in this particular field.

5: Last but not least, there is no guarantee you would recover your money, if the seller is unemployed or in financial straits, so the more pertinent info you have to offer your attorney regarding the seller, the better your chances....find out if he owns real estate ect... best of all, good luck to you.
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Old 02-05-2014, 02:12 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LilRoush View Post
If what your saying about addding parts from Roush making it a Roush, then along that same line, adding SVT Cobra wheels bought from my local SVT authorized Ford dealer now makes the car an SVT Cobra. It doesn't. It's nothing more than an owner modified car with SVT parts.
As you know that's not what I'm saying, nor did you give a comparable example.

Taking your Mustang to Shelby in Las Vegas and spending 20K on a build would be a better example! If you go that costly approach Shelby considers the car a Shelby even if it wasn't built that way originally. The basic difference is that Shelby sells you an expensive number plate in the process! Roush has a better approach that lets the customer decide what he wants as a final product. When I was at Shelby, it was one size fits all at about 11K or 21K, and the lesser price was all cosmetic. I wanted all performance and leave the basic Mustang body alone because I prefer the stock looks.

Anyhow, we both made our point.
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Old 02-05-2014, 02:23 AM   #36
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I gather the sale being discussed was a private party sale??? If it was a sale by a dealer DMV could be helpful. I was cheated by Chrysler years ago in selling me a brand new diesel truck that had be in an accident. Long story.... short, they treated me like trash until a lawyer that specialized in dealing with the auto companies told me, "You don't need me, just start a complaint against their license to sell cars with DMV!" I got three other dealers to put in writing that the "new" truck had major body and paint repairs done without disclosure, contrary to the law. Chrysler changed their tune and gave me a brand new, loaded truck! My mistake was in settling! I should have gone after "punitive" damages which might have been massive, but I didn't think that way at the time! I was trying to be reasonable! Duh!
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Old 02-05-2014, 06:49 PM   #37
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Mr. D, I can't help but think you are a troll. Most of your 200+ posts are you telling someone how you made a better car based on parts with no genuine prominence.

I applaud you in the fact that you have owned some nice cars.

If you want a driver, there is no shame in having a clone, but it is very arrogant to claim over and over as you do that your 'clone' was as good or better than an original.

It never will be.

It will never have the value.

While it may have the same, or better usage or availability, a clone is a clone.

I am not attacking you, I am not attacking your cars.

I am just asking that you acknowledge that most of the public will never accept a clone in the manner that they will accept an original. That is not to mean we won't appreciate it, or maybe even pay a slight premium for such, but at the end of the day, a clone is not in the same category as an original.
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Old 02-05-2014, 08:34 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. D View Post
As you know that's not what I'm saying, nor did you give a comparable example.
Actually, I gave the perfect example. You said you wanted a part here and a part there of your chosing from an authorized Roush dealer and then calling the outcome a real Roush car. Doing it with Roush parts or SVT parts...it doesn't instantly make it one of those. It's simply a car with parts from a performance group.


Even if you build an exact replica of a Roush Mustang using authentic parts from Roush, put it next to a serialized car and the REAL car (with a serial number) has a higher value.

In my 10+ years of Roush ownership, I've only known one car to be made outside of Roush that was granted a serial number by Roush (It's a 2002 Stage 2 replica #5626). It used every Stage 2 part right from Roush, and it is one of the best looking Mustangs I've ever seen. That owner will be the first to tell you it's not a real Roush, but instead a Roush clone/replica.
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1999 SVT: Mostly stockish
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Old 02-08-2014, 05:55 AM   #39
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Murgatory,

I've noticed with some, the definition they use for a "Troll" = is a person that will not bend to their opinion and dares to have one of their own! Calling me a troll doesn't strengthen your argument! It's called an "Ad Hominem" attack! It's a comment most often made by people who simply don't like to hear opinions other than their own! You disagree with me and jumped into the conversation, but I would not call you a troll!

You said, "Even if you build an exact replica of a Roush Mustang using authentic parts from Roush, put it next to a serialized car and the REAL car (with a serial number) has a higher value."

I agree 100%!!!!....But that's not my point!


The point you and "Lil Roush" are missing, or ignoring, is that I never said that a car built by a authorized Roush dealer is the same, or worth the same as a Roush with a serial # plate! My point is that there should be a clear distinction made between a "clone" that is a fake having a couple of Roush decals and a Mustang with $10 to 20K modifications done by an authorized dealer, under Roush specfications, with a Roush warrantee. They can be done either for a Ford Dealership or an new owner. My original post tried to clarify that clear difference and was clear in stating that was not a factory made Roush, but it is still a Roush. The Ford dealer where I bought my Mustang had both Factory made, serial numbered Roush and Saleen cars and also Mustangs modified after they hit the dealership. Some were sent out to a local Roush authorized dealer and some were down by this authorized Roush Ford Dealership. They were modified under Roush specifications with a Roush guarantee related to the engine and drive train. I called Roush and they verified that such cars were considered Roush Mustangs simply constructed by an outside authorized source and were guaranteed by Roush. Obviously these Ford Dealers would be sued by Roush if they were doing something against their agreement with Roush. Ford also offered a "Ford extended warrantee" that covered the Roush modifications.

Now to be CLEAR, I am not saying that a car built by an authorized dealer is the same, or worth the same as a serial numbered factory made Roush.... but it should not be classed or valued in the same as a Mustang were Joe Blow adds a couple of decals in his garage and passes it off as a Roush! Those who own a serial numbered Roush car should not be so insecure about their car's evaluation as to need to devalue cars built by authorized Ford Dealers or independent authorized Roush dealers by saying they are not a Roush, but a clone!

People have the right to different values and opinions, BUT BELIEVE IT OR NOT there are wierdos like me that would value a supercharged Roush (at 475 to 575 H.P.) with an upgraded suspension, exhaust & brakes, etc, with far superior performance to a factory serial numbered car with simply Roush cosmetic body parts. That's why we got a Roush modifed by a Roush authorized dealer! We didn't want the Roush at the local dealer's lot, but didn't expect people to say, "That's not a Roush after we spent all that money with a Roush authorized dealer! You've hurt my feelings by calling my car a clone and I expect an apology and flowers! LOL! If you'll notice it makes no attempt to look like a Factory serial numbered Roush!

I think both types of cars should be appreciated for what they are and the word "clone" should be reserved for cars that are fake copy having nothing to do with the Roush factory or authorized dealers and Roush warrantees.


I deal with the same issue with restoring C-1 Corvettes and have people consider a early Corvette a clone because a Chevy dealer put on a piece of equipment that the car did not leave the factory with, or in a few cases we've found the block serial numbers and or transmission numbers in documented one owner cars were earlier than the build date. What if you take an original car and replace 80% of the fiberglass after an accident! Clone? We make a number of brake master cylinder safety modifications and steering modifications that are impossible to find, but make the steering much nicer because we want our customers to actually live while driving the cars! Does that make these cars clones! A friend bought a 62 Corvette with two four barrels! At the dealership another buyer hated his fuel injection unit because if idle problems! The dealer switched the 2 four barrels for the Injection & distributor and both customers were thrilled! Are both cars clones because they were built that way at the factory, although it made no real world difference! I'll leave that to you!

Again, as long as a car is described accurately, why get stuck on issues of whether it can be called a Roush or Shelby! Stop by Shelby in Las Vegas and spend $25K on your Mustang and then tell me "the only thing that makes it a Shelby is the serial number they sell you (at a high cost) with the modifications! I suppose if they put the serial number plate on with Velcrox.... then you can take it on and off and say, "Shelby... Clone! Shelby... Clone! Shelby... Clone", as you take off the serial number plate and put it back on again!

If a guy has a stock Mustang with Roush decals I agree it should not be considered a Roush anymore than a Ford Pinto with a snake on the grill is is a Cobra! LOL! I truly don't want to upset those owning "serial numbered cars" of any kind, but also let's not say a car built by a Roush authorized dealer under Roush specifications with a Roush warrantee is not a Roush! It just alienates people with by degrading nice cars! If you go to a Mustang Club meet or cruise night and go down the row of Mustangs saying "This is a Roush.... This is a Clone, Roush..... clone!" I suggest you leave your engine running on your number plated Roush! LOL! When you get to the stock Mustang with a Roush decal on it..... we all agree it is not a Roush! I doubt you agree, so let's just agree to disagree and enjoy our cars!

I'm done! Let's all get along, and appreciate any honestly describe cars!

Note: Beware of early Corvettes, because then can be built in any configuration and it cannot be discovered "IF" the builder knows his stuff! In the 70's a lot of high H.P. parts were taken off and replaced with easier to live with 4 Barrel carburetors!

Click the image to open in full size.

This is my one cylinder, number match diesel, with no electrical, water pump, fuel pump, etc. It is not a clone!

Peace be with you!
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Old 02-08-2014, 09:02 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. D
....The point you and "Lil Roush" are missing, or ignoring, is that I never said that a car built by a authorized Roush dealer is the same, or worth the same as a Roush with a serial # plate! My point is that there should be a clear distinction made between a "clone" that is a fake having a couple of Roush decals and a Mustang with $10 to 20K modifications done by an authorized dealer, under Roush specfications, with a Roush warrantee. They can be done either for a Ford Dealership or an new owner. My original post tried to clarify that clear difference and was clear in stating that was not a factory made Roush, but it is still a Roush. The Ford dealer where I bought my Mustang had both Factory made, serial numbered Roush and Saleen cars and also Mustangs modified after they hit the dealership. Some were sent out to a local Roush authorized dealer and some were down by this authorized Roush Ford Dealership. They were modified under Roush specifications with a Roush guarantee related to the engine and drive train. I called Roush and they verified that such cars were considered Roush Mustangs simply constructed by an outside authorized source and were guaranteed by Roush. Obviously these Ford Dealers would be sued by Roush if they were doing something against their agreement with Roush. Ford also offered a "Ford extended warrantee" that covered the Roush modifications.

Now to be CLEAR, I am not saying that a car built by an authorized dealer is the same, or worth the same as a serial numbered factory made Roush.... but it should not be classed or valued in the same as a Mustang were Joe Blow adds a couple of decals in his garage and passes it off as a Roush! Those who own a serial numbered Roush car should not be so insecure about their car's evaluation as to need to devalue cars built by authorized Ford Dealers or independent authorized Roush dealers by saying they are not a Roush, but a clone!
Just wanted to touch a couple points. It's the term REAL that is still the issue. Calling it a Roush means it is a real Roush car built by Roush with a serial number.

In a previous post where you listed the 3 types of Roushs, as well as the underlined section here, you claim that a REAL Roush can be built at a dealer with misc Roush parts. My point is this is not true anymore. It is still a Mustang with Roush parts. A clone is a clone is a clone. IT IS NOT A REAL ROUSH WITHOUT THE SERIAL NUMBER.

I highly doubt anyone authorized to make that claim from Roush told you that they are 'real' when an authorized dealer installed the parts. Clearly anyone tied to Roush is happy to sell parts and spread the level of performance from the company. They make great stuff.

I'm not insecure at all about my cars, nor am I belittling anyone else's. I didn't say my cars are better or anything along those lines. I specifically stating what a REAL Roush is vs a dealer build/clone. I'm not alienating anyone with a clone. But if you want to say your car is a Roush, go get a Roush.

I think what is happening is you feel I'm belittling your car. I'm not. It's a nice car. I like it. But it's not a Roush. It's a GT with a Roush blower and graphic on the window.

I'm not the only one who has explained the difference between a Roush, a dealer build/clone and a car with Roush parts added before.

http://mustangforums.com/forum/salee...sh-clones.html

http://mustangforums.com/forum/salee...ns-rousch.html
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1998 Roush: M112'd Aluminum block 4.6L 2V 6 speed track car
1999 SVT: Mostly stockish
1970 Mach 1: Resto-modded monster

2000 Roush #5004 - World's FIRST M112'd V6 Mustang. Sold, but not forgotten.

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Old 02-08-2014, 09:02 AM
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