Factory Roush vs. Roush Clone--Buyer Beware?
10-29-2013, 04:01 PM
#21
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: MD
Posts: 13
One of the reasons some people buy Roush Mustangs is that it's a tuned car. All of the Research and Development has been done, then tested on mules to fine tune the performance of each part. What you have is a well balanced, badged and serialized high performance car.
This was misrepresented to you. I agree that you should come up with an amount of money to sue in your lawsuit case.
One of the ways to establish the value of your car is to depreciate the cost of your year/model GT and then depreciate the cost of the upgrades.
Another route to proceed is to file in small claims court case. The fear, hassle of a lawsuit may scare the Seller into a quick settlement. Once the defendant is served, perhaps a settlement can be negotiated without ever going to court.
This was misrepresented to you. I agree that you should come up with an amount of money to sue in your lawsuit case.
One of the ways to establish the value of your car is to depreciate the cost of your year/model GT and then depreciate the cost of the upgrades.
Another route to proceed is to file in small claims court case. The fear, hassle of a lawsuit may scare the Seller into a quick settlement. Once the defendant is served, perhaps a settlement can be negotiated without ever going to court.
10-29-2013, 07:57 PM
#22
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 25
You must have got a really good (below market) price on it to blind you so much that you failed to do your DD before handing over the money. If it is done well, and you did get it for a good price, you could just enjoy it and drive it and chalk it up as one of life's little lessons.
12-04-2013, 07:03 PM
#23
Join Date: May 2012
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 15
I came across this forum and your posts on freeadvice.com. I thought it wouldn't hurt to chime in.
Roush doesn't have NADA support. NADA (National Automobile Dealers Association) can act as an archive to help set price ranges for new and used vehicles. Ford Factory Mustangs (V6, GT, 5.0, Boss, GT500) and even a Mustang tuning company (Saleen) are included. Other Mustang tuners (Ronaele, Foose, Roush, etc.) are not included. Banks or your state's DMV won't acknowledge a Roush as anything other than a GT.
You made many comments on how you are afraid of losing the alleged "value" of your car 25 years down the line because your clone wouldn't be worth as much as a true Roush. In either case your car isn't going to retain what you feel it should in terms of monetary value. A Roush car is not a collector car, but they do a damned good job with all of their badges, serial numbers, fireworks, laser light shows, etc. to make you feel that it is.
Roush originally made the first consumer Roush Mustang back in 1995. The car was expensive back then. I've seen the very 1st Roush ever made go for less than $10k on eBay a few months back. Its been nearly 20 years since that car was made now. Unfortunately, nobody cares about a tuner car without NADA support. Roush vehicles since then are victim to the same depreciation.
What does this mean for you? The car that originally had an MSRP from Roush for $50-$60k has little to no comparison for pricing when it comes time to sell. Besides the punch in the gut you get from driving a Roush vehicle off the lot in lost "value" you get an additional kick to the groin. It doesn't matter if it is new or used. I know quite a few guys that have owned Stage 3s, 427Rs, or other Roush cars and have lost 50%+ in "investment" within the first year or two. That is severe depreciation. Typically, for a Roush car you see GT trade in value plus 10-20% and that's about it regardless of if its the real deal or a clone. Roush dealers usually give you a better price however.
Buying a new Roush means losing your shirt in terms of "value." Buying a used Roush means losing less money. I've heard the same story over and over and over and over again from guys that either bought their car new or used. No one knows how to price these things, so you are the one that loses. If you buy a Roush and ever hope to recover most or all of what you have into it you better pray that the potential buyer really really loves your car.
You are going to have a hell of a time proving to a court that you lost out on a certain dollar amount, since the price tag for a used Roush is all across the board. It is not admissible in court to use an auction or a handful of private sale prices of other Roush cars to compare the alleged lost "value" versus what you actually paid. You would need an NADA value, which you can't get. You could try to get a dealership appraisal, yet you are at their mercy in this case. Sadly, you have very little to go on to prove "value." Hopefully, if you do go to court the judge won't be apathetic, but proving you were duped is going to be hard when you didn't do your homework proving the car was what seller said it was.
Per your freeadvice.com conversation you mentioned how a regular GT would be a little below $20k in price versus the one you bought. I can tell you that you couldn't take a regular GT for the price you quoted it at and build the Roush clone you did buy for what you paid. That tid-bit is the good news. The silver lining is you bought the same car you wanted to get and didn't pay the $5k or so to get the "real deal" that, in another couple of years, won't hold its value anyway.
I know this isn't the greatest of news, but as a Roush owner this is the reality you've got. You buy the car because you like it and that's about it. How do I know? Well, I too bought a used Roush (that was real) and did my homework to find this reality. Thankfully, I paid a low price on it, so the depreciation hit won't hit me as hard. I bought the car because I like it.
If you can get some money back great, but I think this is a whoops that you'll have to learn from. At the end of the day if your 427 clone is a perfect clone sans "official" Roush treatment (that its registered on their excel spreadsheet) with all of the original parts a real 427R was supposed to have you got a killer deal what you did buy. It really sucks that the guy lied to you. I'm not justifying what the douche did, but at least you can salvage something out of this. Hopefully, you can still enjoy what you have.
Roush doesn't have NADA support. NADA (National Automobile Dealers Association) can act as an archive to help set price ranges for new and used vehicles. Ford Factory Mustangs (V6, GT, 5.0, Boss, GT500) and even a Mustang tuning company (Saleen) are included. Other Mustang tuners (Ronaele, Foose, Roush, etc.) are not included. Banks or your state's DMV won't acknowledge a Roush as anything other than a GT.
You made many comments on how you are afraid of losing the alleged "value" of your car 25 years down the line because your clone wouldn't be worth as much as a true Roush. In either case your car isn't going to retain what you feel it should in terms of monetary value. A Roush car is not a collector car, but they do a damned good job with all of their badges, serial numbers, fireworks, laser light shows, etc. to make you feel that it is.
Roush originally made the first consumer Roush Mustang back in 1995. The car was expensive back then. I've seen the very 1st Roush ever made go for less than $10k on eBay a few months back. Its been nearly 20 years since that car was made now. Unfortunately, nobody cares about a tuner car without NADA support. Roush vehicles since then are victim to the same depreciation.
What does this mean for you? The car that originally had an MSRP from Roush for $50-$60k has little to no comparison for pricing when it comes time to sell. Besides the punch in the gut you get from driving a Roush vehicle off the lot in lost "value" you get an additional kick to the groin. It doesn't matter if it is new or used. I know quite a few guys that have owned Stage 3s, 427Rs, or other Roush cars and have lost 50%+ in "investment" within the first year or two. That is severe depreciation. Typically, for a Roush car you see GT trade in value plus 10-20% and that's about it regardless of if its the real deal or a clone. Roush dealers usually give you a better price however.
Buying a new Roush means losing your shirt in terms of "value." Buying a used Roush means losing less money. I've heard the same story over and over and over and over again from guys that either bought their car new or used. No one knows how to price these things, so you are the one that loses. If you buy a Roush and ever hope to recover most or all of what you have into it you better pray that the potential buyer really really loves your car.
You are going to have a hell of a time proving to a court that you lost out on a certain dollar amount, since the price tag for a used Roush is all across the board. It is not admissible in court to use an auction or a handful of private sale prices of other Roush cars to compare the alleged lost "value" versus what you actually paid. You would need an NADA value, which you can't get. You could try to get a dealership appraisal, yet you are at their mercy in this case. Sadly, you have very little to go on to prove "value." Hopefully, if you do go to court the judge won't be apathetic, but proving you were duped is going to be hard when you didn't do your homework proving the car was what seller said it was.
Per your freeadvice.com conversation you mentioned how a regular GT would be a little below $20k in price versus the one you bought. I can tell you that you couldn't take a regular GT for the price you quoted it at and build the Roush clone you did buy for what you paid. That tid-bit is the good news. The silver lining is you bought the same car you wanted to get and didn't pay the $5k or so to get the "real deal" that, in another couple of years, won't hold its value anyway.
I know this isn't the greatest of news, but as a Roush owner this is the reality you've got. You buy the car because you like it and that's about it. How do I know? Well, I too bought a used Roush (that was real) and did my homework to find this reality. Thankfully, I paid a low price on it, so the depreciation hit won't hit me as hard. I bought the car because I like it.
If you can get some money back great, but I think this is a whoops that you'll have to learn from. At the end of the day if your 427 clone is a perfect clone sans "official" Roush treatment (that its registered on their excel spreadsheet) with all of the original parts a real 427R was supposed to have you got a killer deal what you did buy. It really sucks that the guy lied to you. I'm not justifying what the douche did, but at least you can salvage something out of this. Hopefully, you can still enjoy what you have.
Last edited by Roush_Phantom; 12-04-2013 at 08:24 PM.
12-08-2013, 01:39 PM
#24
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: South FL
Posts: 8,540
Actually a Roush car is well known in the industry and is a collector car. The rarest early gen cars trade hands for $20K or more. The S3 (blue one I assume you are refering to didn't sell for only $10K last time Miller listed it on ebay several months ago). In fact that same car was listed for $40K by Stage 3 Motorsports in CA several years ago when I was looking at buying an early Roush to go with my 2000 S1. I ended up with my '98 instead. Early Roush SN95 cars still sell for high teens or low twenty figures for S2 or S2 plus cars. That's triple (or more) what other basic GT cars of the same year are selling for. NADA doesn't mean crap in today's world of internet. No book does. Current market value is easy to find and keep track of. That book and others like it are relics that need to be tossed out.
You sound more like an upset owner rather than someone familiar with Roush history and what the cars are worth.
You sound more like an upset owner rather than someone familiar with Roush history and what the cars are worth.
12-09-2013, 04:26 PM
#25
Join Date: May 2012
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 15
How do I sound like an upset owner? If you read what I wrote you'd understand that I am anything but that. I paid less than a 1/3 of the original MSRP under two years ago on an RS3 with less than 15,000 miles. I'm thrilled friend. I bought the car I wanted for beans. The original two guys before me didn't fare well obviously.
My purchase may be on the low end of the spectrum, but what you are describing is on the completely opposite end. You can charge any sum for any item and if you find someone to buy it does that necessarily dictate value for all items in the same group? No, it doesn't. I'd have no problem taking your word on the prices you are saying in the area you are from. California is not the rest of the US, and outliers exist in every price pool. If they overpay for one car in one area versus many cheap examples everywhere else the adage "a fool and his gold are soon parted" would apply.
You cannot go to court give the judge a handful of over inflated examples and base your argument of value on that alone. This is the problem the OP has, which is vast inconsistency to prove value to rectify the difference between what she thought she was buying versus what she actually received. She needs a hard price provided by NADA or many appraisals to convince the court that there is a stark difference between what was sold versus what she thought she was being sold.
The OP will find many many more Roush owners on forums complaining about how the value of their car fell like a stone and they lost their shirts versus those that broke even or made money. That Roush you referenced barely sold for 1/4 of that 40K asking price. The SN95 and New Edge Roush cars can sell for the mid teens, but that is about it. Why do tell the SVT Cobras and GT500s sell for more today versus their Roush counterparts when the Roush cars had a higher original MSRP? No consistent Roush pricing among auto traders and sellers. No NADA.
Another thing, NADA values are what dealerships base their prices on. NADA prices aren't a book. It isn't a group dictating prices to dealerships or sellers. It is sellers reporting prices they are charging versus what they actually sell their vehicles for to one another through a computer database. I'd say that is quite relevant in today's "world of the internet" as you put it.
My purchase may be on the low end of the spectrum, but what you are describing is on the completely opposite end. You can charge any sum for any item and if you find someone to buy it does that necessarily dictate value for all items in the same group? No, it doesn't. I'd have no problem taking your word on the prices you are saying in the area you are from. California is not the rest of the US, and outliers exist in every price pool. If they overpay for one car in one area versus many cheap examples everywhere else the adage "a fool and his gold are soon parted" would apply.
You cannot go to court give the judge a handful of over inflated examples and base your argument of value on that alone. This is the problem the OP has, which is vast inconsistency to prove value to rectify the difference between what she thought she was buying versus what she actually received. She needs a hard price provided by NADA or many appraisals to convince the court that there is a stark difference between what was sold versus what she thought she was being sold.
The OP will find many many more Roush owners on forums complaining about how the value of their car fell like a stone and they lost their shirts versus those that broke even or made money. That Roush you referenced barely sold for 1/4 of that 40K asking price. The SN95 and New Edge Roush cars can sell for the mid teens, but that is about it. Why do tell the SVT Cobras and GT500s sell for more today versus their Roush counterparts when the Roush cars had a higher original MSRP? No consistent Roush pricing among auto traders and sellers. No NADA.
Another thing, NADA values are what dealerships base their prices on. NADA prices aren't a book. It isn't a group dictating prices to dealerships or sellers. It is sellers reporting prices they are charging versus what they actually sell their vehicles for to one another through a computer database. I'd say that is quite relevant in today's "world of the internet" as you put it.
Last edited by Roush_Phantom; 12-09-2013 at 05:01 PM.
12-13-2013, 03:30 PM
#26
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: South FL
Posts: 8,540
Actually, you can go to court with a stack of printed off adds to determine market value of a rare Mustang. I've done it. I proved my point and won the case. All of the books/guidelines etc didn't hold any merit because none delt with the specific variation of the car. It is also why I have my rare cars appraised and as much paper work and as many photographs as possible to document them.
Market price for collectable cars isn't localized to states.... or even countries. Maybe it used to be, but not any more. People will travel for the right car, or have it shipped.
As for charging party determining value - the sellers control the price of Roush cars. If everyone starts asking less and less, the value drops. It's the owner's fault, nobody elses (it's a repeated topic on FNSweet). If nobody sells cheap, the people who want them will pay the premium for them. Owners of a rare object determine price, not the buyers.
In the last several years of watching, I have yet to see a 96-98 Roush sell for less than about double the average 96-98 Cobra in similar condition.
Market price for collectable cars isn't localized to states.... or even countries. Maybe it used to be, but not any more. People will travel for the right car, or have it shipped.
As for charging party determining value - the sellers control the price of Roush cars. If everyone starts asking less and less, the value drops. It's the owner's fault, nobody elses (it's a repeated topic on FNSweet). If nobody sells cheap, the people who want them will pay the premium for them. Owners of a rare object determine price, not the buyers.
In the last several years of watching, I have yet to see a 96-98 Roush sell for less than about double the average 96-98 Cobra in similar condition.
Last edited by LilRoush; 12-13-2013 at 03:32 PM.
02-02-2014, 04:19 AM
#28
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,149
I have read many of the posts here and I think some who have "number plated" factory Roush cars are misunderstanding the issues involved in buying a Roush because they are understandably proud of their "number plated" cars. The real issue is that cars should never be misrepresented!
My understanding is as follows:
1. There are Roush cars with a "number plate" that are a modified Mustang sent from Ford to Roush and then retailed by Ford as a Roush. If you will only happy with the bragging rights of a Roush with a "number Plate" coming from the Roush factory, then do the research and make sure that's what you are getting!
2. There are Roush Mustangs that have been modifed with genuine Roush parts by an authorized Roush dealer and mechanic under Roush specifications that will not have a "number plate" and may have various combinations of Roush parts. If you are mainly interested in the performance and/or maybe look of a Roush you may be very happy with a Roush Mustang modified after the original sale by an authorized Roush Dealer and Mechanic according to Roush specifications and warrantees! Also some Ford Dealers have sent new Mustangs to Roush authorized dealers to have these modifications done prior to the original sale on the lot!
3. There are Mustangs that may only have decals, or have had non authorized or guaranteed work done by owners themselves! If you buy a Mustang that has not been assembled by a Roush authorized dealer and mechanic using Roush specifications and having a Roush warrantee you buy such a car at your own great risk! [B]
In my opinion, whether, or not you call a Mustang a Roush is determined by whether Roush controlled and warranteed the modification of the car, rather than when the modification was done. If Roush didn't not want these cars called a Roush they would not have authorized dealers installing Roush mechanical parts with a Roush guarrantee! I bought my Mustang and had it sent to a Roush authorized dealer. Others can decide if they think it is a Roush, or not, but it had a Roush guarrantee and it runs like a scalded cat! To each his own, but we all agree, "Just don't misrepresent the car!"
My understanding is as follows:
1. There are Roush cars with a "number plate" that are a modified Mustang sent from Ford to Roush and then retailed by Ford as a Roush. If you will only happy with the bragging rights of a Roush with a "number Plate" coming from the Roush factory, then do the research and make sure that's what you are getting!
2. There are Roush Mustangs that have been modifed with genuine Roush parts by an authorized Roush dealer and mechanic under Roush specifications that will not have a "number plate" and may have various combinations of Roush parts. If you are mainly interested in the performance and/or maybe look of a Roush you may be very happy with a Roush Mustang modified after the original sale by an authorized Roush Dealer and Mechanic according to Roush specifications and warrantees! Also some Ford Dealers have sent new Mustangs to Roush authorized dealers to have these modifications done prior to the original sale on the lot!
3. There are Mustangs that may only have decals, or have had non authorized or guaranteed work done by owners themselves! If you buy a Mustang that has not been assembled by a Roush authorized dealer and mechanic using Roush specifications and having a Roush warrantee you buy such a car at your own great risk! [B]
In my opinion, whether, or not you call a Mustang a Roush is determined by whether Roush controlled and warranteed the modification of the car, rather than when the modification was done. If Roush didn't not want these cars called a Roush they would not have authorized dealers installing Roush mechanical parts with a Roush guarrantee! I bought my Mustang and had it sent to a Roush authorized dealer. Others can decide if they think it is a Roush, or not, but it had a Roush guarrantee and it runs like a scalded cat! To each his own, but we all agree, "Just don't misrepresent the car!"
Last edited by Mr. D; 02-02-2014 at 04:48 AM.
02-02-2014, 11:36 AM
#29
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: South FL
Posts: 8,540
For clarification on #2 -
Roush authorized dealer/shop builds in the earlier generations (95-04) did happen, and those cars were all serialized (in the door jam). In reality, most of the cars prior to 2001 were done by outsourced authorized builders. (IE: My 1998 Roush was built by Braco Racing in Feb of '98. My 2000 Roush was built at Roush Racing, in Mansfield, TX.)
Serial numbers where hit and miss until 1999. But simply put for anything 1999 or newer, if the car is not serialized, it's not a 'real' Roush. It's a copy/clone/owner build....what ever term someone preferes.
That being said, you can have a Roush authorized shop/dealer install Roush parts with the warrenty, but that doesn't make it a Roush car. It makes is a car with Roush parts.
Roush authorized dealer/shop builds in the earlier generations (95-04) did happen, and those cars were all serialized (in the door jam). In reality, most of the cars prior to 2001 were done by outsourced authorized builders. (IE: My 1998 Roush was built by Braco Racing in Feb of '98. My 2000 Roush was built at Roush Racing, in Mansfield, TX.)
Serial numbers where hit and miss until 1999. But simply put for anything 1999 or newer, if the car is not serialized, it's not a 'real' Roush. It's a copy/clone/owner build....what ever term someone preferes.
That being said, you can have a Roush authorized shop/dealer install Roush parts with the warrenty, but that doesn't make it a Roush car. It makes is a car with Roush parts.
Last edited by LilRoush; 02-03-2014 at 05:59 PM.
02-02-2014, 07:59 PM
#30
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,149
If I had spent a lot of money on a Shelby, Roush, etc. with a serial number I might feel the same way, but I disagree. Some people are more about pedigrees than actual performance, or quality, etc. To me the only issue is whether, or not a car is described accurately.
Example: The car below has been examined by NCRS judges and passed as an original '61 Fuelly Corvette. It is not original, but no expert has ever been able to find anything not original! My point is.... what is the point? Unless you are misrepresenting a car in a sale and cheating someone....what is the point? A pedigree rather than anything to do with the actual car. I've seen many '61 fuelly Corvettes that were worn out rags unsafe to drive but still worth twice as much as this car because it could be documented they came from the factory as a '61 fuelly! Not my way of thinking, but everyone gets to put a value on things in their own way.
An original, or one of my disgusting fakes? LOL!
To conclude, from my point of view if Shelby, Roush, or Saleen provides a warrantee for building a Mustang by an authorized dealer then it is a Shelby, Roush, or Saleen car. It simply should not be misrepresented. In the case of some buyers, they simply do not want all the modifications that come with a "one size fits all" factory Roush or Shelby on a Ford Sales Lot, such as the suspension modifications. Many will not agree, of course, but the bottom line to me is if Roush sets up authorized Roush Dealers and mechanics to do builds with Roush warrantees on those builds than that car is a Roush! Both Mustangs of type #1, and type #2 should be respected for what they are! It appears Roush recognizes them both as Roush's! Just enjoy!
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Last edited by Mr. D; 02-04-2014 at 05:01 AM.
