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-   -   Factory Roush vs. Roush Clone--Buyer Beware? (http://mustangforums.com/forum/saleen-roush-and-boss-mustangs/702669-factory-roush-vs-roush-clone-buyer-beware.html)

Rachael427R 10-28-2013 11:51 AM

Factory Roush vs. Roush Clone--Buyer Beware?
 
I recently purchased a Roush 427R from a private seller. He advertised it as a factory Roush (purchased as stock GT then sent to Roush for factory conversion) and titled it as a Roush 427R on the bill of sale. Turns out it is not in fact a factory Roush (missing badges and serial numbers), but rather he purchased all the top of the line Roush parts and had a mechanic do all the work. So in other words, I purchased a Roush clone under the pretense it was factory. Before I spend a ton of money consulting an attorney, is it false advertising to call a Roush clone a "Roush 427R" without mentioning the word "clone" or "replica"? Is it legally a Roush? To me it should have been advertised as a clone but it wasn't. I wouldn't have paid as much for it if it was advertised as a clone. Do you all think I have a case, or is this a case of "buyer beware"?

kenthicken 10-28-2013 12:43 PM

I hate to read this - so sorry to hear. Merely adding the Roush parts does not make it a 427R. The VIN would have been registered with Roush, there would be badges in the engine compartment, etc., etc. (as you said). It's not a real one, no matter what the previous owner did to it.

Hate to be an "internet attorney," but my two cents as a non-attorney is, if you bought the car with the understanding it was a legit 427R, and it was listed on the Bill of Sale, then you may have a case for misrepresentation or fraud. I would be very pissed if I were you, and I would hold onto that Bill of Sale listing it as a 427R, since that is your support for a lawsuit.

What it comes down to is, how much you are willing to spend to pursue this? Attorneys fees will add up. What is it worth to you? Talk to an attorney at the very least. The seller may respond to a threatening letter and this whole issue could be resolved in your favor. Just a suggestion.

Again... speaking as a "non-attorney."

Rachael427R 10-28-2013 01:41 PM

Thanks kenthicken. I understand that the replies here will likely all be from non-attorneys, however I appreciate any and all pieces of advice.

A few weeks ago I did email Roush and they could not verify the VIN#. I have this email in my records with Roush stating that "the vehicle was not built as a authentic serialized ROUSH vehicle. Any upgrades were done after market." I regret not doing this research before (hence my question of "buyer beware"), however I bought the car under the false pretense that the seller sent the car to the factory for conversion, and it's listed on the bill of sale as a Roush 427R with no mention of it being a clone or replica. I agree that this is my strongest piece of support for a lawsuit.

As far as how much I'm willing to spend...I really don't know. I've never needed legal help before. I don't want to lose anymore money. The whole reason I'm seeking legal help in the first place is because I feel like I overpaid for a car I was led to believe was authentic. But, if I win I would get some sort of monetary winnings that could go towards attorney fees. I just don't know how much I would win vs. how much I'd owe the attorney. I agree that a threatening letter may do the trick. I've personally sent several emails and letters to the seller, and at this point he is calling my bluff and pretty much daring me to take him to court.

Derf00 10-28-2013 01:53 PM

Do you have a copy of the ad they used for the car? That is the only way to really tell....

Rachael427R 10-28-2013 02:13 PM

Yes, I have a copy of the ad as well as issues of magazines the seller entered the car in--all stating that he had the car sent to the Roush factory for an official conversion.

Derf00 10-28-2013 02:20 PM

There you go then...conversion is the key word.

A regular Roush is not advertised as a conversion. It's advertised as just a Roush and sold through dealers (when new). The reason is that Roush has the cars factory delivered from the Ford assembly plant directly to their facility to go through the mod process. That's how they are able serialize them and tie the VIN and Serial number together. That's the only "official" way to do it.

After digging around a bit more.... Did the person say they sent it to Roush themselves for the conversion? how exactly did the car get the upgrade/mods done? My understanding is that Roush will not modify someone's private vehicle, only new ones owned by Ford dealerships or Ford, and all of those are serialized.

That may be your case.... they did an aftermarket conversion without any actual input from Roush, the fact the car is not serialized means it's not recognized as a Roush, but rather as a clone car, again Roush doesn't recognize those and they lied about sending it to Roush for a conversion. Contact Roush direct and get the exact details of their process so they can answer your questions.

How much was the car?

Rachael427R 10-28-2013 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derf00 (Post 8301365)
There you go then...conversion is the key word.

A regular Roush is not advertised as a conversion. It's advertised as just a Roush and sold through dealers (when new). The reason is that Roush has the cars factory delivered from the Ford assembly plant directly to their facility to go through the mod process. That's how they are able serialize them and tie the VIN and Serial number together. That's the only "official" way to do it.

After digging around a bit more.... Did the person say they sent it to Roush themselves for the conversion? how exactly did the car get the upgrade/mods done? My understanding is that Roush will not modify someone's private vehicle, only new ones owned by dealerships or Ford and all of those are serialized.

That may be your case.... they did an aftermarket conversion without any actual input from Roush, the fact the car is not serialized means it's not recognized as a Roush, but rather as a clone car, again Roush doesn't recognize those and they lied about sending it to Roush for a conversion. Contact Roush direct and get the exact details of their process so they can answer your questions.

How much was the car?

I was told that he purchased the car brand new from Len Stoler as a stock GT and it was sent straight from the dealership to Roush for the conversion. I've contacted Len Stoler and they have no record of this transaction other than the initial purchase. I learned that the seller even tried to later sell it back to Len Stoler who was initially interested until they learned the car was not in fact genuine. Roush has no record of my car's VIN#. So it seems that the seller purchased the car new then had a shop do the aftermarket conversion. Roush did confirm that it is not recognized as a Roush. I will take your advise and get some sort of documentation from Roush detailing their process.

It is an automatic 2007 convertible with 31,000 miles at time of purchase for $24,000. I know this is less than what factory Roushes are selling for on average, but still more than what I believe a modified GT with Roush parts is worth...

LilRoush 10-28-2013 06:20 PM

I'm sorry to hear about this!! Lawyer up for sure!!

Techincally the Roush Mustang is refered to as a 'converstion' since it is done after the VIN related build by Ford. However, you have a great foundation to fight from.

With today's Mustangs, no cars are bought as 'stock' then sent to Roush. They all go right to Roush, then sold as Roush from the dealer. Way back when, Roush did have authorized build locations to help cover builds. My '98 was built by a Roush authorized builder. My '00 was built by them, then sent to the dealer where I bought it.

Let me know if there is anything I can help with from the stand point of what a 'real' Roush is vs a copy/clone/fake.

kenthicken 10-28-2013 10:38 PM

I believe once Roush does the conversion, they are listed as the "Manufacturer of Record," meaning it is technically no longer a "Ford" but a "Roush."

Can you list the options on the car? Roushcharger, suspension, seats, brakes (big or factory), wheels, gauges, etc., etc.? Reason I am asking is, I just ran the value of your car on NADA Guides (using Baltimore for the ZIP code), and it says that a clean 2007 GT convertible with 31,000 miles is worth $18,825 at retail. If this guy added all the correct 427R mods, especially the blower, then the price you paid is actually not bad with all the mods included.

True, it's not a real 427R, but what it comes down to is, it may be you got the car for a fair price (if not a slight overpay). If you got all the goodies, you may not be far off on the money.

A true 427R is a Mustang with about $20K worth of stuff on it from the factory (mine was $49K new, factory Ford sticker was $28K), so after six years, depreciation and all, $6K for all the same stuff is not bad... if this guy did everything.

Anyway, something to think about. If you do decide to go forward, get all your ducks in a row from Roush, the dealership you mentioned, etc. May want to consider small claims... no attorney needed.

427Roush 10-29-2013 12:16 AM

Purchased my 2007 Roush 427R in 2008. It came with both the Ford GT sticker and the Roush invoice of upgrades.
These cars currently sell between $22k-$30k from private Seller's. If you paid $24k that's really not a bad price, especially for a Vert.
I know there was misrepresentation on the Seller's part but attorney fees could be cost prohibitive.
I suggest that if you like the car, keep it. It's a Roush clone and that's ok. I'm sure it's still a fun car that gets a lot of looks and drives great.
These cars are not listed in KBB and resale value is minimal.
My friend has a 2007 427R with 10,000 miles and is selling it for $27k.
The 428Rs and 429Rs sell for slightly higher. The Black Jacks and P51s higher still and the 427R Trak Paks are probably the most sought after because of their handling upgrades for HPDE track use.
If it really bothers you and you're after justice then I personally would gather as much information as possible and threaten to sue the Seller to try to recoup some money or file in Small Claims Court Good Luck.

Rachael427R 10-29-2013 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LilRoush (Post 8301498)
I'm sorry to hear about this!! Lawyer up for sure!!


Let me know if there is anything I can help with from the stand point of what a 'real' Roush is vs a copy/clone/fake.

Thanks for the help. I'm really conflicted as to what to do. On one hand I feel that I have a strong case and should be repaid for being misled, but on the other hand, the car is not a piece of crap--quite the opposite, and I love it...but the seller being SUCH an asshole in his emails to me since I discovered it was a clone makes me want to take him to court that much more. I'm talking about a 55+ man taking advantage of a 24 year old female. Also I do feel I overpaid. I found out from the dealer that the car recently appraised for $18,000.

Rachael427R 10-29-2013 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenthicken (Post 8301627)

Can you list the options on the car? Roushcharger, suspension, seats, brakes (big or factory), wheels, gauges, etc., etc.? Reason I am asking is, I just ran the value of your car on NADA Guides (using Baltimore for the ZIP code), and it says that a clean 2007 GT convertible with 31,000 miles is worth $18,825 at retail. If this guy added all the correct 427R mods, especially the blower, then the price you paid is actually not bad with all the mods included.

True, it's not a real 427R, but what it comes down to is, it may be you got the car for a fair price (if not a slight overpay). If you got all the goodies, you may not be far off on the money.

A true 427R is a Mustang with about $20K worth of stuff on it from the factory (mine was $49K new, factory Ford sticker was $28K), so after six years, depreciation and all, $6K for all the same stuff is not bad... if this guy did everything.

Anyway, something to think about. If you do decide to go forward, get all your ducks in a row from Roush, the dealership you mentioned, etc. May want to consider small claims... no attorney needed.

I know the guy put a lot of money into it, but even if he put $20k worth of stuff on it, it doesn't mean it becomes worth that. The seller doesn't even have ANY paperwork or receipts for this thing. The car was recently appraised for $18k. It has the total bottom package, painted stripes, not decals, mods also made to cold air intake, long tube headers, all caps and dip sticks under the hood have been replaced with new stand out ones, and hood struts on hood as well as hood locks on the outside. Small claims may be an option. I'd at least like to get a free consultation from an attorney, even bite the bullet and pay $500 for a threatening letter.

Rachael427R 10-29-2013 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 427Roush (Post 8301646)
Purchased my 2007 Roush 427R in 2008. It came with both the Ford GT sticker and the Roush invoice of upgrades.
These cars currently sell between $22k-$30k from private Seller's. If you paid $24k that's really not a bad price, especially for a Vert.
I know there was misrepresentation on the Seller's part but attorney fees could be cost prohibitive.
I suggest that if you like the car, keep it. It's a Roush clone and that's ok. I'm sure it's still a fun car that gets a lot of looks and drives great.
These cars are not listed in KBB and resale value is minimal.
My friend has a 2007 427R with 10,000 miles and is selling it for $27k.
The 428Rs and 429Rs sell for slightly higher. The Black Jacks and P51s higher still and the 427R Trak Paks are probably the most sought after because of their handling upgrades for HPDE track use.
If it really bothers you and you're after justice then I personally would gather as much information as possible and threaten to sue the Seller to try to recoup some money or file in Small Claims Court Good Luck.

The attorney fees are what's holding me back here. I do think I'm owed something, but I don't know how that will balance out vs. what I'll end up paying the attorney. I mean if I take this guy to court, I want the $ difference in value, $ for the fraud he committed, $ for my time off work to deal with this and $ to pay my attorney. I don't know if that's how it works though, I've never been involved in a lawsuit before.

A part of my really does want justice too. I've gathered a lot of information that builds my case. I've sent the seller a certified letter and several emails threatening legal action, and he's pretty much calling my bluff and daring me to take him to court. The guy can't put a decent sentence together to save his life so now he has his wife and kids emailing me and writing letters.

If I had a piece of junk car I'd be livid, but the fact that I have a beautiful car eases that a little. I def want to keep it and don't want to void the sale. I've won best of show in 2 out of 2 shows I've entered since I bought the thing a month ago. Small claims may be an option, but isn't fraud criminal? Even the bill of sale says right on it that misrepresentation can lead to fines of hundreds of dollars and possibly jail time. I don't want the guy to go to jail, but this 55 year old man looked me in the eyes and lied to my face then on the bill of sale. He knew what he was doing but as a young female he thought I was too dumb to figure it out or come back and confront him.

LilRoush 10-29-2013 11:32 AM

If it's attorney fees you fear, talk to one. It's been my expeirence that the loser in court pays the fees all around. Some might ever offer the 'we don't get paid until you get paid' deal.

As for Roush being listed as a manufacturer, only Saleen does that - and they get a new VIN indicating such. A Roush will always be a Ford Mustang (V6/GT etc...) by VIN. It makes us work a little more to get insurance coverage, loan values and resale cost b/c they are not listed in any of the 'books' places like to use.


It would be interesting to see the full list of mods done to the car. I know a lot of people get all touchy about saying a 'real' one is better, but there is a lot of be said about having it built by the guys who do it for a living. Having any old shop toss together performance parts can lead to problems later. It all comes down to the quality of the build.

I am happy to hear you like it. I hope it all works out for you. Make sure to post some pics up!!

Rachael427R 10-29-2013 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LilRoush (Post 8301818)
If it's attorney fees you fear, talk to one. It's been my expeirence that the loser in court pays the fees all around. Some might ever offer the 'we don't get paid until you get paid' deal.


It would be interesting to see the full list of mods done to the car. I know a lot of people get all touchy about saying a 'real' one is better, but there is a lot of be said about having it built by the guys who do it for a living. Having any old shop toss together performance parts can lead to problems later. It all comes down to the quality of the build.

I am happy to hear you like it. I hope it all works out for you. Make sure to post some pics up!!

Yea, I'll see if I can get a free consultation to see if it's even worth taking on my case. It seems to me that the loser would pay the fees.

I posted some pics in my album. I have some really nice hi-res photos, but they are too big. If I can figure out how to shrink them down I'll post em.

Thanks!!

Derf00 10-29-2013 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rachael427R (Post 8301836)
Yea, I'll see if I can get a free consultation to see if it's even worth taking on my case. It seems to me that the loser would pay the fees.

I posted some pics in my album. I have some really nice hi-res photos, but they are too big. If I can figure out how to shrink them down I'll post em.

Thanks!!

That is the best way.

If/When you talk to an attorney, the first thing they will want to know is what type of resolution you are looking ($$$). You need to be clear about this.

Personally I'd go after the difference in price between what a regular convertible GT goes for and what the Roush goes for (about 6 grand + attorney fees + your time and any lost wages). The reasoning is simple.

As a stand alone, the mods are not worth it to you. They were only worth it to you if the car was indeed a Roush, which it is not. You are not/were not willing to pay 6K extra for options that are not worth that much as they stand without the Roush serialized name to stand behind. At the very worst the court reduces that amount to half (3K) and gives you compensation for lost wages and attorney fees.

Keep a record of EVERY bit of communication you have with the seller. ALL of it. Any phone calls, take notes and record the date and time, etc. If the guy is as big of an idiot as he sounds, he will hang himself if he hasn't already.

Rachael427R 10-29-2013 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derf00 (Post 8301887)
That is the best way.

If/When you talk to an attorney, the first thing they will want to know is what type of resolution you are looking ($$$). You need to be clear about this.

Personally I'd go after the difference in price between what a regular convertible GT goes for and what the Roush goes for (about 6 grand + attorney fees + your time and any lost wages). The reasoning is simple.

As a stand alone, the mods are not worth it to you. They were only worth it to you if the car was indeed a Roush, which it is not. You are not/were not willing to pay 6K extra for options that are not worth that much as they stand without the Roush serialized name to stand behind. At the very worst the court reduces that amount to half (3K) and gives you compensation for lost wages and attorney fees.

Keep a record of EVERY bit of communication you have with the seller. ALL of it. Any phone calls, take notes and record the date and time, etc. If the guy is as big of an idiot as he sounds, he will hang himself if he hasn't already.

I totally agree with all you've said. And in regards to communication, I have every bit of it saved. I have refrained from speaking to him on the phone so that I have everything documented through email. He can say whatever he wants on the phone but I can't exactly record him.

I posted his same question on a legal forum and many of the people responding don't believe I have a case. They think I took advantage of the seller by paying below market value for what I believed to be an authentic Roush. They think I feel that it was ok for me to take advantage of him but when I found out he took advantage of me I'm claiming fraud.

And they also said I neglected to do "due diligence" and research an authentic Roush before I signed the check. My question is just if all that outweighs the fact that he lied on the bill of sale and sold me a car under false pretenses. It seems to me that what they're saying is that the way the law works, so long as the buyers don't figure out the fraud through research before they sign the check, it's ok to lie and con people because they should have figured it out before. I'm more conflicted than ever as to if I should pursue this or not...

LilRoush 10-29-2013 03:32 PM

You can't take advantage of a seller if they are asking a low price. That's a crazy concept.

Check out both FNSweet.com and RoushForums.com (FNSweet might be more helpful.) You might be able to snag a real legal angle from a Roush owner/attorney or run across someone else with the same problem. Also check out Roush Addicts on Facebook. It's another large group of owners that might be able to help you out on the legal end.

427Roush 10-29-2013 03:32 PM

One of the reasons some people buy Roush Mustangs is that it's a tuned car. All of the Research and Development has been done, then tested on mules to fine tune the performance of each part. What you have is a well balanced, badged and serialized high performance car.
This was misrepresented to you. I agree that you should come up with an amount of money to sue in your lawsuit case.
One of the ways to establish the value of your car is to depreciate the cost of your year/model GT and then depreciate the cost of the upgrades.
Another route to proceed is to file in small claims court case. The fear, hassle of a lawsuit may scare the Seller into a quick settlement. Once the defendant is served, perhaps a settlement can be negotiated without ever going to court.

Rachael427R 10-29-2013 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LilRoush (Post 8301924)
You can't take advantage of a seller if they are asking a low price. That's a crazy concept.

Check out both FNSweet.com and RoushForums.com (FNSweet might be more helpful.) You might be able to snag a real legal angle from a Roush owner/attorney or run across someone else with the same problem. Also check out Roush Addicts on Facebook. It's another large group of owners that might be able to help you out on the legal end.

You'd think!! But now I wonder if a judge will see it that way. I paid the guy what he was asking for it. I didn't even low-ball him. Besides, he seemed desperate to get rid of it because he needed the $$ for medical reasons.

I tried registering on FNSweet.com but i could not for the life of me figure out how to create a post. I was short on time so just gave it up. I'll def check out the others though. I want to get as much info as possible before moving forward.


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