Joel5.0

LOL.... that is not an internet isolated case or a build I don't know details about, it's one currently underway + one of the reasons Nate did choose that exhaust configuration was a recommendation in which I was also a humble participant, among others, based on our own big names non-endorsed experience and results. And you're right, a properly sized header and exhaust does make a difference, just as that little shared fact demonstrates. Are results and facts only valid when a big name is stamped on it? Who knows, maybe the earth is flat indeed.

BTW.... you can take the word from whomever you choose, it's your right.... me?..... I would rather rely on facts and data.... specially when the big names endorsed real "techno babble", cannot explain common people results to the contrary or.... can it? Other than the use of big names, I don't see and answer to the questions asked. Besides, if big names are a requirement, I prefer to use the "techno babble" from Navier, Stokes and Bernoulli, among others.

Portmaster

I tried to tell you why so I'll try once more to elaborate. A properly sized header scavanges the exhaust which creates a supercharger effect in the cyl by help pulling in the next air fuel charge at high rpm. A header with a very large tube on a small port won't experiance this because the exhaust speed isn't fast enough. Then as that exhaust travels dow the big 3 inch exhaust and hits the baffles in the mufflers the exhaust becomes turbulant because there is not enough exhaust pressure to push past the baffles The walls of air (exhaust) cause the air to curl up and then the next pulse of exhaust has to hit that wall of air before it gets to the muffler baffle thus slowing down an already to slow flow of air. The exhaust ends up beating against itself instead of a steady flow out of the end of the exhaust. If things like this didn't affect power things like X Pipes, collector extentions and header tube length would have no relevance as far as power goes. You can tune an exhaust system to suit the power level and torque level of the vehicle. Just like you can go to small you can also go too large. In most cases if you want more low end power you use a longer collector on the header and if you want more top end power you shorten the collector. Tuning the exhaust is like anything else. size matters. The reason I threw out the names is because it's general knowledge among those builders that properly size exhaust makes better power and not just my opinion. I've seen it on chassis and engine dynos that you can go too large on exhaust. It's not something I've read on the interweb it's real life experiance. I've seen Stock headed 5.0 Mustangs make better power across the board with a 2.5 exhaust over a 3 inch exhaust.

I hope you got your answer that time. If you would spend more time really reading instead of blowing your own horn maybe you could figure it out. You would rather spend your time poking holes in other peoples statements and finding everybody else faults with your techno-babble BS than really giving out an answer that most people could understand. They figure that because you try to talk over their head you must know what youre talking about. I've seen a lot of technicians that managed to come to work for me by techo-babbling their way into the doors of my shop. Within a week I had them figured out and know there are some who talk the talk and some who walk the walk. I can be as technical as the next guy but I like talking to people just like I did my customers. Plain, simple and a way they understand.

I don't feel the need to code my replies where it has to be decoded in my signature line nor do I think so much of myself that I feel the need to quote myself because I said something that sounded good. You are so full of yourself it's really kind of sad but hey we have to do what makes us happy. I hate that my plain and simple method threatens your superior self indulgence of over technical and under proven examples of performance situations so much that you feel the need to critique every word I post.

If you spent half as much time doing actual testing as you do trying to find fault in what others say you might gain some actual valuable knowledge. The only thing that seperates you from most E-Thugs is the techno-babble. In some cases it can look like a duck, walk like a duck and quack like a duck but in real life it's a goose. I've been around long enough to tell the differance.

Joel5.0

..... Mr. Bernoulli, and Mr. Coanda would be going if they read that real "techno babble" filled with contradictions. BTW... do not focus or spend that much time and fingertips pressure trying to make me look as inexperienced as you assume I am..... , you'd be surprised..... focus on the topic.

How does that conflicting theory explain the results from that V6 setup?
How does that conflicting theory explain the reality of having a lower HP output setup, due to exhaust improvements, be the fastest setup over the highest HP setup? .... and yes, I've experienced it...... or is it something that could not be possible?

Here's a very basic question regarding flow in an enclosed system, isn't pressure a contradiction to flow? OR .... isn't a pressurized exhaust system the same as a flow limited system? OR .... isn't it the same as saying that "backpressure" is needed?

Yep.... newly graduates are a bitch, they think they know it all based on their books based knowledge. It's when you provide and show them the real facts hands on, that they really start to listen and stop using big names to try to make a point.... BTSTDT plenty of times. The only faults I focus on BTW, is the misinformation based ones, nothing personal. If a person misinterprets it as a personal attack, that situation itself is proof of the lack of evidence to support anything under discussion. Furthermore, the inability to explain why specific cases that go against their theories, adds to the obvious. And yes, anytime I see the possibility of causing another person to waste $$ in unnecessary or less optimum setups....... sure I'll try to help prevent that from happening.

And that's fine, yet irrelevant to the topic under discussion so ....

Again.... you would be surprised at the real experience and the time I've been doing this.... BTW, if there is no fault in what's shared, no way any could be found unfortunately, that is not the case. I like the traditional saying best..... if it looks like crap, smells like crap and tastes like crap....... it is crap!

So an E-Thug is anybody that does not agree with you? ... ..... an E-Thug I am then...... .... but your concept of too big of an exhaust system + too big of an intake + too big of a set of cylinder heads + too big of a carburetor + too big of a TB for a balanced and efficient street setup is wrong, and most of all, outdated...... and this is backed by all the examples shared with performance figures including HP, ET slips, owner's feedback, MPG results, etc, etc........ NOT "techno babble BS" as you would like it to be.

Portmaster

I never said you were inexperianced. I said you were wrong. In some cases I'm wrong and you should know sometimes things come out differant than what you expect. I can no more explain how your V6 made more power anymore that you can explain my senerio. I wasn't there. If you had as much performance experiance as you think you had you would know sometimes the best laid plans don't yeild the results you expect and sometimes you just get lucky. It's OK to disagree with me and frankly I don't care if you do. Ask 30 differant engine builders the same question and chances are you will get 30 differant answers. It's all about getting results. I do that and have been doing that for a long time.

Good luck on your 289 with E7 heads Tunnel ram intake a pair of dominators and 2.25 inch tubed headers into 4 inch exhaust. Exaggeration? Sure it is but the point I'm making is there is a point where things get too large. While you may not be at at that level of wrong(yet) you do cross over the line quite a bit. There is a point where head ports get too large as well. Thats not outdated information thats a fact.

But anyway we can go round and round all day. I'm not going to agree with you and you won't agree with me. Like I said before using a nicer analogy that sometimes it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck but sometimes turns out to be a goose. That comes from years of not assuming things. Even though there may be a general rule that rule doesn't always apply and often times things arn't what they seem. You seem to want to dissect every sentance of any statement that seems to emanate from my keyboard looking to overpower my words with what would appear to be intellectual superiority. Like I said somtimes things are not what they seem. Nobody is always right yet you seem to techno babble everyone to the conclusion that you are infallible. I'll even go out on a limb and say that I think you have convinced yourself of that. I guess if everyone was like you that white-out and eraser companies would cease to exist.

Joel5.0

Au contraire.... I can explain why the V6 performed better + the errors of that "pressurized exhaust system" theory. In simple itemized terms.....

1. Exhaust pulse tuning, or scavenging happens at the header (primaries + collector + extension + auxiliary extension (if required)) level.
2. Once #1 is tuned and set based on the setup goals, the center stage is taken by flow capability.... not pressure, not velocity.....but flow based on cross section.
3. Try exhaling through a (a) 3/8" ID 6" long hose with a small open breather at the end (muffler), as hard as your lungs (engine) allow..... not try it through (b) a 1" ID 6" long hose with matching size open breather at the end. Which one will last longer? Answer = (a).... wouldn't (b) allow for a faster/better intake cycle to be repeated?... wouldn't it allow to increase the intake cycle..... this is simple physics involving dynamics.
4. If the intake can be cycled faster, more effectively..... isn't it the same as a reload capability to repeat the firing cycle at a faster/more efficient rate?....... maybe that was why the V6 out-accelerated the setup that used to beat it?

Agree on the 30 people = the possibility of 30 different answers.

An exaggeration indeed, by the same token though, a 289 with 195cc heads, a Vic Jr. or Parker funnel, 750 cfm carburetor, TLSR camshaft setup is not an exaggeration, nor should it fall in the "too large" category..... yet it does.

There is nothing to overpower, specially when facts are ignored and then used as an excuse selectively. Techno babble?.... still ignoring all the samples that cannot be explained? LOL... infallible?... I've made a lot of mistakes and committed my big share of errors in life and continue to do so...... but wait, isn't that the way real experience, data and facts are generated? Who was that said, I now know 10,000 ways this won't work. Do I tag them and make sure I don't repeat the same mistakes?... isn't that called learning? Maybe not.

289nate

Hello all. This is a very interesting topic and seems like a neat place so I went ahead an registered.

The subject of Joe Sherman as well as my little 289 seems to have come up. On Joe Sherman I have seen him post several times about how he almost always sees an increase in power on his dyno with a larger carb. The key is knowing how to tune them. A larger carb will always have the potential for more power as long as it can still properly meter the fuel on the application. Joe also seems to be a big proponent of large exhaust and NOT using an X or H pipe. Read him post time and time again that X and H pipes are for "weak suck" engines. LOL

I personally run a Pro Systems 950 Holley HP on my 10:1 comp pump gas street toy 289 with excellent results. I also have a 3" exhaust on it with no X or H pipe. Plenty of low end power to shred the tires rolling along in first or second gear. I've actually been quite surprised at the amount of low end power this 289 has with Canfield 195 heads, Parker Funnel Web intake, 3" dual exhaust, and 950 carb.

I'm a little surprised anybody would expect to gain any meaningful insight from differences in flow on a bench using different diameter pipes hooked up to an exhaust port. How can a flowbench mimic extremely hot exhaust gases moving under considerable pressure?

I very much agree that a properly designed header (primary diameter, primary length, and collector) can give some pretty incredible gains especially in the area of the collector. And the same for an exhaust system but to a lesser extent IMHO.

I just don't see a 3" exhaust hurting this guy. A local builder a while back was telling me how he put 3" exhaust on 5.0L mustangs and they accelerated faster after about 1,500 rpm. I can see if someone doesn't like the extra noise and if they are just too big to run over the axle going smaller. Otherwise leave it be.

If you go to bigger exhaust or open headers at the track (I've run open on the street a few times) you don't just need to re-jet but also adjust the timing to get the full benefit.

John Doev1

Funny thing is that this thread has absolutly nothing to do with exhaust. I posted up questions and concerns on my carb and it's tuning and got a few stab at it answers on the first page but ever sense it has been a pissing match about something that is so far off topic that I stopped looking at the tread a few days ago.

On a side not, I had to recurve my distributor and it got rid of my problems.

Joel5.0

Glad to read that John, my apologies from this side but when I see suggestions like:

And a response like:

I knew for a fact it would cause a waste of time and $$ to you based on a suggestion that had nothing to do with your problem, even though it was meant as an area to "improve"; but based on misinformation that continues to be spread. Anyway, hope to see you update us with some results at the track from that baby of yours.

Portmaster

I'm about 150% sure Joel got you to post this up for him. I doubt seriously you just happened in and hit this post first shot out. I could have 30 people come on and dispute it. On the part of yourself and Joel thats pretty low and desperate measures to go to try to prove a point. It would do you and him absolutly no good to say you and him don't know one another and he didn't put you up to it. Frankly I'd be suprized if you even own a 289 but I won't make that call. This reminds me of the Bully who got his azz kicked and had to run home and get his older brothers to come fight his fight. Sorry I won't stoop so low as to get any of my friends to come in and hype up anything I've said.

I havent seen you add anything meaningful that came out of your own head. It was I read Joe Sherman said this, Joe Sherman said that and A local Builder told me this. Horsechit. I am the local builder along with several others that actually do the work, do the testing and get the results. As far as the flowbench goes you can't mimic Hot exhaust gases but it's still the best tool available for getting consistant flow. If you had a clue you wouldn't have even brought that into play. I've gone so far as to me able to mimic wet flow on my Superflow 600 and even use an air speed gauge in the ports. I also built plates to simulate the intake bolted to the head. While I may not be able to get the outgoing air up to 1000 degrees (would reak havoc on the bore tubes) it's pretty stupid to even bring that up. While youre sitting around playing he said she said they say I'm actually doing it.

Shread the tires? Youre kidding right? Anything with half an engine can shread the tires. Hell I can smoke the tires at 55 mph in my car in second gear (C6 tranny) but that just tells you the tires don't stick with a decent amount of power. I heard you mention absolutly nothing about 1/4 mile times for your over the top combo or even what it's installed in. Spend 40+ years in dyno rooms and dragstrips and then try to tell me something. When you get a couple of Wallys on your trophy shelf then come back and try to tell me something. Until then you are just Joels little puppy to me.

mjr46

the same could be said about you lets see the ET on your claimed 500+ hp ride. I think that could help you better support your claims. ohh and FYI 289nate is not Joel's pet, cruise the other forums and you'll know that people know what your claims are and what the real big dawgs think.