289nate

Thank you Joel for posting the pictures of my engine on Edding's DTS PM 15 engine dyno and my car. I can post a picture of me wrenching on it in between pulls if you like. You'll notice the second sheet was from Jim Grubbs dyno. I did a second session there and that is when Jim got curious what it would do at low rpm and we made the pull from 2,800. Never made a low rpm pull at Edding's but the torque curve was better at all rpm in the range we tested. At Edding's it had a Parker Funnel Web and at Grubbs it had a Vic Jr. A pull from 2,800 at Edding's might have showed even better torque with the PFW.

For the record Joel did show me this site. I do know Joel and very much appreciate where he's helped me on other Ford sites. He NEVER asked me to register here or to post a darn thing. I NEVER implied I just happened onto this site and topic. I registered and posted because I felt I had some real world first hand experience to share on the subject and was afraid the person who started this topic would waste time and money messing with his exhaust. Other things were brought up and I thought I'd share my experience with those as well.

Portmaster, I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't know what to tell you other than that. I'm sure you've had success doing things as you have and that 347 sounds very nice.

I figured since you were bringing up some high end people in the sport it would be perfectly appropriate for me to post my first hand experience with what I put together very affordably with simple parts (possible exception being the custom camshaft from Camshaft Innovations) for a fun street / strip weekend toy. I also feel that you brought up Joe Sherman's name to back your claims which go in contrast to what I've seen him communicate on boards such as speedtalk.

The problems you bring up certainly have merit. Just not in the applications you claim based on my experience.

My car is just about ready for the track. Was going to head to Irwindale Sunday but delays and a double header for my Sunday league baseball team ruined that. With my daughter due at any time (June 8th is the due date) I'm not sure when I'll make my first passes. It will take a while to get used to the new combo and get everything dialed in. I look forward to it though. The first passes will likely be at Irwindale which is 1/8 mile. At some point I'll head out to Bakersfield and Fontana to make some passes as well.

mjr46

if I ran the car like it was meant to be run it would easily annialate/achieve a 10 sec slip, the car is very close to the 130 mph range so you do the math, if you refuse to accept the plain examples presented so be it, you can lead a horse to water but you can't force him to drink it.

Joel5.0

No you haven't.....aside the faulty theory that summarized = the bigger the cross section area across the exhaust system, air flow will be affected due to turbulence causing an increase in back pressure; you have not explained why such theory does not support the real cases shared here.

Coincidentally, I've spent the day doing some EEC and wiring repairs on a little notch project we are working on, the N/A (NOS in case of emergencies only) 302 with the full 3" exhaust, short runner intake box, 70mm TB, B-303 cam and 195cc Pro Comp heads, full weight, A/C required. The owner of the car is the exhaust systems installer/custom builder guy in my local mafia, he also does a lot of work for imports and muscle car restorations.... anyway, he reminded me to share another 100% street/DD/N/A setup that runs mid 12's on street tires with Edelbrock Performers, another alphabet cam, Cobra intake, 4.10 spooled gears, EL shorties with 3" full exhaust system Mustang... I did an ECM repair for it today as well, due for pickup today, so I'll check if it was the F-303 the cam he used in that run.

Here's the little notch:



And here's the DD Mustang with the 3" full exhaust doing a little run on street tires at the local track:

http://www.worldsfastestcompacts.com...2d13f5f431e4bb

Is it a 10 second ride?..... nope. Is it a full race setup?.... nope.... aside his fix at the track every other week, it spends most of its time idling and below 3000 rpm with the A/C on.

So... to sum it up.... how does that theory can explain all these contradictory cases towards itself? .... is this a little more clear as a question? BTW.... it's not moi that don't like your answer, it's the setups that continue to demand a better flowing exhaust so they can perform better..... I simply comply with their breathing demands.

Portmaster

I'm not refusing to accept the examples shown but the OP has an E7 headed car and not a Canfield 195 headed car. And Just because a couple of yahoos on the internet tell me something doesn't doesn't mean I'm going to beleive it. I've see some N/A cars actually slow down at the drag strip when the exhaust was dropped at the header (non computer controlled), I've seen 4.6 and 5.0 cars make better overall and peak power on a 2.5 over a 3 inch exhaust on a chassis dyno. It's not a matter of leading a horse to water but you can't make him drink but more of a matter of tried and true actual proven results on not just one car but many.
You, Joel or his buddy cant make me think otherwise because I've seen the proof with my own two eyes. You can accept it or not. Doesnt matter. But to throw in that my post show "How not to build a small block Ford"? Tell me whats wrong with my Combo? Show me one example of actual engine building where I have made some horrid error? Gave some actual bad engine building advice or steered someone in the wrong direction over their build. You don't see me handing out bogus I read this on another forum. and that when it comes to Mustang Fox body Suspension because it's not one of my strong points you don't see me handing down advice. I'm in my own learning curve on that one. If it was a leaf spring,GM A body or a few others I'd be handing down the gospel of getting it to hook. If I don't know what I'm taking about I stay out of that conversation. The things I do understand are engine building and how guys sometimes don't have the money to do what they would like but need to work with what they have.

I have to empty my mailbox constantly from these guys because they are afraid to post up on this forum and what advice will I offer them without getting the same old same old replys and hammering they get from guys like Joel. I've been doing this long enough to know what people want and sometimes that differs from what we would do ourselves. Sometimes a guy want a thumping cam at the cost of optimal power. Give the guy what he wants, not what you want.

BTW as far as the engine in my car goes when I built it I was shooting for 500 hp. I never expected what I got. Just goes to show you what happens when the right person does the headwork. You can beleive it, leave it, doubt it and dispute it. DOESNT MATTER TO ME. I'm doing some 1/8 mile shakedowns in it today. I'll know if the engine is a dyno queen, dog or just plain nasty for it's size. I was running 10 second street driven car before most of the people on this forum were born. I got there the first time on a BowTie cast Iron headed 355 cubic inch small block Chevy in 1977. This was a pump gas street driven 1974 Corvette. Corvettes are not as light as people think, It wasn't gutted but a full interior street car (gas was a bit better back then). I know what works and what doesnt. Just because you decide to swing on someones elses sack doesn't mean I'm going to agree with you or him.
I answered the question that was posed, just because You and Joel don't like the answer that falls under the catagory of Tough Chit. If you were really interested in the conversation instead of nutswinging you would engage and come up with you own resoning as to why you think I'm wrong instead of feeding Joels already mind numbing Ego. Lets hear your thoughts on why a 3 inch exhaust is better on a E7 headed car as opposed to a 2.5. Try to use your own words or better yet give me some examples you have tried on your own. Then and only then will you have any credibility in this conversation. Until that happens in my eyes you are just a nutswinging instigator and not a moderator. If you had been a real moderator this thread would have been shut down as soon as the insults started instead of adding in your own and seeing how far you can push people. Sorry I don't surrender because I'm confronted because someone doesn't like my thoughts or any results I have experianced. I'm like the energizer bunny and will stay in this conversation as long as it continues. Sometimes the water the horse is led to is bad water. The sooner you learn that the better off you'll be.

mjr46

If people are afraid of the truth let them live in darkness because truth is light and when people hide from it, it's because they are scared it'll shatter their ego , so be it let them have what they want a slow car, but never has a customer of mine been upset because I offered them the truth if they were willing to understand and listen, problem with giving a guy what he wants is "that guy" often thinks what he has choose will yield him the best results when often it will not, ie...the ole 169.00 dolla camshaft option...example 1 I removed one of those from a customers car who was married to that cam and installed a custom CI cam with the proper valve events went from 13.3's to 13.0's and eventually a best of 12.94...that's just one of the many examples......ahh yes but the new ots cam he wanted to pull off the shelf to replace this 169.00 dollar one was another 169.00 dollar one....so should I have let him just do that, then pay me the labor all over again a third time to install the proper cam,when what he wanted, I knew was not gonna achieve his goal??? sure he squirmed about the 300 dollar price tag + valve spring upgrade for custom stuff, but after the goal was met, the price was soon forgotten and a grin from ear to ear was there
Problem is , is that I've swung on peoples knuts with the philosophy you present and the only place it got me was dissapointment and cost my pocket book more when I had to redo the combo, three thashed motors , three underachieving pos ots cams recommended by quote un quote people who knew how to make engines breath, extra intakes still under my bench left over from these motors, now grant it this was a while ago but the sour taste is still there, oh and here's a real life example to support it, I installed a quote un quote TFS kit for a customer that "he wanted" although it was faster than stock, first words from him were... "Man I was hoping for more".... that's right the dumby kit disappoints again......soon all those parts will be under bed and they were recommended to him by someone on a forum




If you were interested in such then you'd stop the personal character attacks in every other sentence in hopes of redirecting the attention at such. And instead post up examples with the proof, ie et results, videos, pics, dyno sheets before and after and any other empirical data to support the claim
We'll use my own personal favorite here, although I do have customer examples, for your pleasure I'll use my own, It is my 92 mustang in my sig converted to a 5.0 from an 85 gt as the donor, whole goal was run in the 13's with little or no investment including the cost to convert the car , Car had stock e5 heads, stock cam and bottom end and performer 289 intake and 600 carb headers 1 3/4........And 2 1/2 h-pipe with accompanying catback flowmaster. OH and fyi total investment in this project after I sold what I could off the 85 was 315.00 dollars to achieve the goal!!! car ran 13.90's all day long on the set up, uncap the headers an 13.70's all day long, so what did I do that increased the gain?? I removed the restriction in the system, so going larger to 3 inch which will soon happen will neither hurt and in some cases not help performance. you can argue what you want but I have more than one example, but no matter how many I post up to refute/ defend the point being discussed, you've already admitted you refuse to accept them, so why should I continue to do such??....good day sir
Until the last page or so this was a discussion between you and Joel so don't accuse me of pushing people, now you refuse to answer Joel's questions because you feel I'm easier prey and less versed, how wrong you are. as for the "real moderator" comment..........and what,give you the easy way out like the comment you made that I'd have you banned as taking the easy way out??.....Back to the topic now

I have, SEE my second response above it illustrates this point,

Joel5.0

[1] So the OP has an E7 headed setup....... I guess the stock 3.8L V6 example is not in your refusal list....... yep...those OEM V6 heads compare to the Canfield 195's.

Of course you will see some N/A cars actually slow down at the drag strip when the exhaust is dropped at the header...... specially when nothing else is done to the setup..... you need to set the intake to complement the better exhaust.

Yes.... you can have a drop in power output at a dyno, that does not mean it's slower on a real dyno (aka track or street). Or didn't you know that HP gains from exhaust cannot be measured on a dyno limited to TQ/HP vs. RPM output?

[2] Nobody will make you think otherwise, regardless of the data or proof.... that has been confirmed w/out a doubt. BTW... the fact that the OP has an E7 headed setup does not mean he will not gain better performance with the existent 3" exhaust system....... provided he configures and tunes for it....... IOW.... he can also "work with what he has", and more effectively than wasting $$$ unnecessarily.

[3] Give the guys what they want?.... over what is correct?.... ... I'll think about that with the next customer that wants to hear how great the Turbonator and the Magnetizer are because that's what they have. Better yet, and following that same approach, apparently the exception would be an E7 headed 302 with a 3" full exhaust.... no, that one NEEDS to be changed, regardless if that is what the customer has.

The customer or car owner will always have the last word, it's their $$, their decision...... that does not mean that a real professional will provide information or suggestions with the excuse of appeasing a customer over the correct one. Do I also have some "engine sound over performance" customers? .... ... who doesn't..... that does not mean I will take advantage of their ignorance, provide them with a setup that sounds but doesn't perform, and capitalize when they come back after they loose their first grudge challenge to a Civic. I try to set it correctly from step 1 to ensure performance, sound is a byproduct they will be happy with anyway..... I simply enjoy the tips after their engine sound causes some grudge matches and those results, from doing it correctly the first time, really appease them....

[4] Memory lane ending with a *******.....

[5] This one I really have to highlight.......

1. NO.... as in you have not answered the questions posed, specially the portion involving the outliers samples. Again.... how does that theory explain them?
2. As soon as the insults started?..... ... oh!...you mean post #5 in this thread.
3. Your results are fine, if your happy with them, that's what's important..... but that does not automatically make them the holy grail to obtain similar or better results. That does not mean everyone should agree or else, that does not mean it's the best way to do it, and that does not mean discussions on the topic should be prevented in a forum.
4. I really understand the limitations that causes a person to contradict himself.... examples?
   
   1. What does running 10's in the past have to do with the topic, specially when a totally opposite remark like "there is more to street cars than Wide Open Throttle", was used previously?
   2. What do titles, time, courses, age, etc have to do with the discussion (if it survives) at hand? ..... nothing.
   3. Is it always better to ensure the biggest power output at the dyno or, better performance at the street or track? Didn't you know you could loose 14-18 HP at the dyno due to changes in the exhaust but gain 2-3 MPH at the track?
5. Now.... by the same token, I can also say that the "3" full exhaust will kill off the scavenging effect of the exhaust" statement is .
6. I can also say that the "75mm TB is too big for a 302" concept is .
7. I can also say that the "185cc+ heads are too big for a 302" notion is .
8. Do I have examples, samples, ET numbers, dyno results, experience, video clips, 3rd. party cases, etc to support all the allegations I make above?..... .... yet I know those facts, data an proof will not be enough for people with a closed mind that only focus in exaggerating the info shared, specially when they haven't tried it themselves.

To summarize this rant a little LOL.... yep, an E7 headed 302 setup will benefit from a 3" full exhaust.... it's the whole configuration what matters.

projectresto83

Its kinda messed up but interesting listening to you 3 on here. I am surprised that someone else has not jumped in and just locked this thread to end it bc this has gotten WAY off topic of the OP. But then again it would probably start back up in a week or two.

Portmaster

What you don't seem to understand is that sometimes people don't really care about the ultimate amount of power. I always gave them what I thought would be the best option of what I thought was best for their car. Some guys just want a lumpy cam. I've never had a customer get upset because I told him he was picking out a cam with the wrong specs for his set up. In the end the customer gets what he wants (within reason). I sure didn't send a customer down the street because he wanted 10 degree's more duration than his car really needed. In my area you would have been out of business in 6 months like that. If some guy wanted a Tunnel Ram intake, two 600 cfm carbs and Comp Cams 292 Magnum cam on a stock 350 for his 23T show car I had no problem installing it. While I had rather have the guy come throught the door and hand off the keys and give me free reign on their car you have to deal with both and cater to both.

Portmaster

Like I told you, I answered his question, twice. My answer hasn't and won't change. You are spitting in the wind

Portmaster

You should know that sometimes results vary from engine to engine car to car. The results you get in your area can differ in mine, you should know that. I'm all for eliminating restriction in the exhaust but the entire car and exhast system has to work as a whole. If the exhaust gases can make a smooth transition out of the exhaust it works to the best power of the car. If the exhaust is to large the air curls up and the next pulse wave has to hit a wall of air and it creates a domino effect and instead of the exhaust being pushed down the pipe the flow slows down becuase of turbulance in the exhaust. There is a point where exhaust gets to small and a point where it gets to large.