Heard about the new Hybrids?
06-13-2009, 10:52 AM
#1
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Heard about the new Hybrids?
Called Formula 1 cars?
I dunno how many of you guys follow F1, but the new rules for this year incorporate a lot of changes, one of which is a system called KERS(Kinetic Energy Recovery System). It's allowed, but optional this year, and the for 2010 season it will be mandated. Pretty much everyone is running it, and only 1 team has opted for a gear driven generator setup, but all the others are using a regenerative braking system that allows them to capture and store 111 KW hrs per lap, which is used in a "push to pass" system that gives an 82bhp burst for 6.6 seconds per lap from an electric motor. 82hp is a huge chunk for a car that only weighs 1,330lbs max. I suppose the advantage of this all is we'll see battery and motor technology more extensively developed, and the F1 guys have the nearly unlimited budgets to do that. It probably won't be long before we start seeing hybrid sports cars that use a similar system of electrical recovery for additional performance bursts. I've heard rumors of Ferrari developing a Hybrid street car, so I have to wonder if it incorporates a KERS type hybrid setup.
Imagine how much something like that would help at the strip? Instant torque assist at launch that's recovered in the braking runoff at the end of the track. Like nitrous, only with less problems.
I dunno how many of you guys follow F1, but the new rules for this year incorporate a lot of changes, one of which is a system called KERS(Kinetic Energy Recovery System). It's allowed, but optional this year, and the for 2010 season it will be mandated. Pretty much everyone is running it, and only 1 team has opted for a gear driven generator setup, but all the others are using a regenerative braking system that allows them to capture and store 111 KW hrs per lap, which is used in a "push to pass" system that gives an 82bhp burst for 6.6 seconds per lap from an electric motor. 82hp is a huge chunk for a car that only weighs 1,330lbs max. I suppose the advantage of this all is we'll see battery and motor technology more extensively developed, and the F1 guys have the nearly unlimited budgets to do that. It probably won't be long before we start seeing hybrid sports cars that use a similar system of electrical recovery for additional performance bursts. I've heard rumors of Ferrari developing a Hybrid street car, so I have to wonder if it incorporates a KERS type hybrid setup.
Imagine how much something like that would help at the strip? Instant torque assist at launch that's recovered in the braking runoff at the end of the track. Like nitrous, only with less problems.
06-13-2009, 09:09 PM
#7
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Yeah, it does add some weight, but the F1 guys have the money to spend and they've basically had custom uber light weight motors and battery packs designed. It works well so far for the ones using it, they'll either use the stored power to prevent from being passed, or to pass other cars. So that adds to the strategy, if you have no power stored and the other guy does, sucks to be you. So they have to be judicious in their use of the KERS. It's changed the race a lot though(in addition to many other rule changes, such as smaller wings, driver adjustable front wings, and they went from grooved tires to slicks), Ferrari has not only not won a single race, but they've yet to score even a single point this season!!
I think one of the best things that will come from it will be the development of more efficient lighter weight motors and battery packs. The other thing about a system like that, is it can be a LOT smaller than a typical hybrid. Since the motor isn't part of the primary powertrain, it doesn't need to be large to drive the vehicle. It's basically a supplement to the existing powertrain, much like we'd use nitrous on an engine, so it can be a lot smaller with a much smaller battery pack designed for a short burst of speed, rather than continuous use.
I think one of the best things that will come from it will be the development of more efficient lighter weight motors and battery packs. The other thing about a system like that, is it can be a LOT smaller than a typical hybrid. Since the motor isn't part of the primary powertrain, it doesn't need to be large to drive the vehicle. It's basically a supplement to the existing powertrain, much like we'd use nitrous on an engine, so it can be a lot smaller with a much smaller battery pack designed for a short burst of speed, rather than continuous use.
Last edited by 67mustang302; 06-13-2009 at 09:12 PM.
06-14-2009, 02:23 PM
#8
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KERS is going to be eliminated next year from F1, they determined that it is too expensive, weighs too much and isn't really relevant to road cars applications. From the IS300 forums:
It seems that KERS will, ultimately, turn out to be just an expensive experiment and diversion for F1:
FOTA come to 'logical' resolution to scrap KERS in 2010
Crash.net
The Formula One Teams' Association (FOTA) has come to a joint resolution to call for the controversial KERS (Kinetic Energy Recovery Systems) technology to be scrapped from next season onwards – arguing that it is anathema to the sport's current drive to radically reduce expenditure.
KERS – which recycles normally expended braking energy into an extra burst of acceleration that can be used for between six and seven seconds per lap in the form of an 80bhp 'power boost' – has generated considerable debate ever since it first came into being late last year, due to its excessive weight and, more pertinently, prohibitive cost.
The introduction of KERS came at the behest of FIA President Max Mosley, who deemed it a means by which to improve F1's 'green' credentials with environmental issues coming to the fore – but there have been repeated difficulties with the energy-saving devices right from the word 'go', from pit-lane fires and electric shocks to chronic unreliability, with only four of the ten teams yet to run it in 2009, despite it having been declared 'mandatory' back at the beginning of the campaign.
Of those, McLaren-Mercedes is the sole outfit to have used KERS in every race to-date, with Ferrari having temporarily dropped it in Shanghai and BMW-Sauber and Renault having abandoned it altogether. World championship leaders Brawn GP, pursuers Red Bull Racing as well as Toyota, Williams, Scuderia Toro Rosso and Force India have yet to employ the technology at all – and indeed show little sign of doing so anytime soon.
In the light of KERS' unpopularity and repeated glitches – as well as its expense in an era in which F1 is embarking on a dramatic cost-cutting drive in response to out-of-control spending and the present global credit crunch – FOTA has now agreed to propose it be ditched altogether in 2010.
“That is our position jointly,” Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali confirmed in an interview with BBC Sport. “Of course, we (Ferrari) are the [only] ones that are using it now with McLaren. We have invested a lot of money in it, but it's difficult for the public to understand how there are cars with KERS and cars with no KERS.
“In terms of the discussion we had within FOTA, we are talking about cost-saving for the new teams as well. I think in the view of helping new teams to get into F1, and in order to save money, it is a logical decision – even if we have invested a lot of money in the project. If we are all together, then it is better not to have it.”
“F1 has to demonstrate that it has some green credentials,” added McLaren team principal Martin Whitmarsh, with Mercedes' KERS system widely considered to be the best in the field, “but at the same time, in this economic climate everybody is looking to save costs. It has been a huge effort talking about new entrants and making sure the smaller teams stay in F1.
“McLaren's position is we would like to see KERS retained – but we also accept that we have to be responsible members of the F1 community, and if the majority don't want to have KERS, or can't afford KERS at the moment, then we have to be realistic.”
http://www.crash.net/formula+one/New...s_in_2010.html
I don't think "green" and F1 racing should be used together in the same sentence anyway
It seems that KERS will, ultimately, turn out to be just an expensive experiment and diversion for F1:
FOTA come to 'logical' resolution to scrap KERS in 2010
Crash.net
The Formula One Teams' Association (FOTA) has come to a joint resolution to call for the controversial KERS (Kinetic Energy Recovery Systems) technology to be scrapped from next season onwards – arguing that it is anathema to the sport's current drive to radically reduce expenditure.
KERS – which recycles normally expended braking energy into an extra burst of acceleration that can be used for between six and seven seconds per lap in the form of an 80bhp 'power boost' – has generated considerable debate ever since it first came into being late last year, due to its excessive weight and, more pertinently, prohibitive cost.
The introduction of KERS came at the behest of FIA President Max Mosley, who deemed it a means by which to improve F1's 'green' credentials with environmental issues coming to the fore – but there have been repeated difficulties with the energy-saving devices right from the word 'go', from pit-lane fires and electric shocks to chronic unreliability, with only four of the ten teams yet to run it in 2009, despite it having been declared 'mandatory' back at the beginning of the campaign.
Of those, McLaren-Mercedes is the sole outfit to have used KERS in every race to-date, with Ferrari having temporarily dropped it in Shanghai and BMW-Sauber and Renault having abandoned it altogether. World championship leaders Brawn GP, pursuers Red Bull Racing as well as Toyota, Williams, Scuderia Toro Rosso and Force India have yet to employ the technology at all – and indeed show little sign of doing so anytime soon.
In the light of KERS' unpopularity and repeated glitches – as well as its expense in an era in which F1 is embarking on a dramatic cost-cutting drive in response to out-of-control spending and the present global credit crunch – FOTA has now agreed to propose it be ditched altogether in 2010.
“That is our position jointly,” Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali confirmed in an interview with BBC Sport. “Of course, we (Ferrari) are the [only] ones that are using it now with McLaren. We have invested a lot of money in it, but it's difficult for the public to understand how there are cars with KERS and cars with no KERS.
“In terms of the discussion we had within FOTA, we are talking about cost-saving for the new teams as well. I think in the view of helping new teams to get into F1, and in order to save money, it is a logical decision – even if we have invested a lot of money in the project. If we are all together, then it is better not to have it.”
“F1 has to demonstrate that it has some green credentials,” added McLaren team principal Martin Whitmarsh, with Mercedes' KERS system widely considered to be the best in the field, “but at the same time, in this economic climate everybody is looking to save costs. It has been a huge effort talking about new entrants and making sure the smaller teams stay in F1.
“McLaren's position is we would like to see KERS retained – but we also accept that we have to be responsible members of the F1 community, and if the majority don't want to have KERS, or can't afford KERS at the moment, then we have to be realistic.”
http://www.crash.net/formula+one/New...s_in_2010.html
I don't think "green" and F1 racing should be used together in the same sentence anyway
06-14-2009, 09:03 PM
#10
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Interesting. It should be interesting to see if FIA does indeed drop it for 2010, since they said they planned on mandating it to try to increase competitiveness. I can understand the cost saving argument though, with the big guns like Ferrari, BMW, Mercedes etc having budgets that exceed half a billion per season one has to wonder how the smaller teams could hope to compete. I imagine they're going to keep their aero package changes though(smaller wings, no additional side doodads etc) and the tire change.