MT z/28 Discussion and what Ford needs to do to Continue to Compete
07-19-2013, 09:51 AM
#1
MT z/28 Discussion and what Ford needs to do to Continue to Compete
If there is one thing that I think Ford HAS to do with the s550 platform is improve handling DRASTICALLY.
There is a such thing as remembering where you came from, but hopefully this IRS as well as some more competent suspension and handling upgrades will keep the Mustang competitive as the Camaro inherits Corvette parts and GM's MagRide technology.
I'm quite tired of the Mustang having higher HP/TQ and performing not as well on the track and in a straight line as other cars in the segment with more competent handling. The only Mustang I feel to truly accomplish the track mindset is the 2012-2013 Mustang BOSS 302/Laguna Seca. I would hope Ford brings some of what made that car special down to it's other mustang models.
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What do you guys think the S550 gen needs in order to continue to compete with something like the z/28?
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Also, does anyone else think for needs a hero car to compete in the Corvette/Viper segment? Bring back the Ford GT, I say.
07-21-2013, 11:13 AM
#2
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Fort Leonard Wood, MO
Posts: 624
One thing Ford could do to dramatically improve handling is tire improvement...my '11 has 235's up front where my lighter '04 had 245's stock. Kind of counter-intuitive to me. I know there have been suspension improvements that allow the 235's on my '11 to be more efficient, but still. Imagine if Ford just started out with a 255 or 275 all around. Seems like Chevy is on the right track putting wider tires all around, but I've always been one of those guys that likes running a wide tire. More grip is always better FOR ME.
07-21-2013, 11:45 AM
#3
One thing Ford could do to dramatically improve handling is tire improvement...my '11 has 235's up front where my lighter '04 had 245's stock. Kind of counter-intuitive to me. I know there have been suspension improvements that allow the 235's on my '11 to be more efficient, but still. Imagine if Ford just started out with a 255 or 275 all around. Seems like Chevy is on the right track putting wider tires all around, but I've always been one of those guys that likes running a wide tire. More grip is always better FOR ME.
07-21-2013, 12:12 PM
#4
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: New York
Posts: 272
Well, your example is basically Chevy's answer to the Boss 302 and from the video, 7 liter V8 and 305 tires all round...
The Boss 302 can beat an M3 around Laguna Seca. But yeah, if BMW makes a CSL M4, there'd be no chance for the Boss (or Z/28 for that matter) around the track.
I guess the difference is the 3 series coupe was in a better place as a base model for BMW engineers to turn into an M3, without taking out things like AC or sound deadening. I remember the CSL being so hardcore though that BMW made the floor in the trunk out of hardboard, just to save a few grams of weight.
That being said, I could never drive a BMW car on the road. Every time I see someone make a d-bag move, they're in a Beemer, so I'm going to hope the new Mustang is more about all round performance as a base model.
The Boss 302 can beat an M3 around Laguna Seca. But yeah, if BMW makes a CSL M4, there'd be no chance for the Boss (or Z/28 for that matter) around the track.
I guess the difference is the 3 series coupe was in a better place as a base model for BMW engineers to turn into an M3, without taking out things like AC or sound deadening. I remember the CSL being so hardcore though that BMW made the floor in the trunk out of hardboard, just to save a few grams of weight.
That being said, I could never drive a BMW car on the road. Every time I see someone make a d-bag move, they're in a Beemer, so I'm going to hope the new Mustang is more about all round performance as a base model.
07-21-2013, 05:00 PM
#5
4th Gear Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: iowa
Posts: 1,626
Its easy to make a mustang handle like a boss or if not better for fewer dollars than the msrp of a boss. Please dont get me wrong, I love the boss, but to say its the only one that can handle is silly.
We will just have to see what ford brings out for the s550, but I wouldnt count on special editions at launch.
We will just have to see what ford brings out for the s550, but I wouldnt count on special editions at launch.
07-21-2013, 06:39 PM
#6
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: CO
Posts: 310
Have you guys driven a Gen 5 Camaro? I got a 1SS when they came out. It was a pig with massive understeer and to modify the suspension cost big bucks compared to an S197.
If it had shorter gears, it might have been a bit more fun, but at altitude with 20" tires, it is no better spinning the tires than my 300 HP 4.6L.
This magride stuff that came out on the 1LE, and supposedly that could not beat a Boss.. so throw in a big block equivalent motor, the only thing they will do on the track is restrict it and the mass is no different than before according to the expected weight.
That said, the Gen 6 Camaro might be interesting as long as it does not look like the latest rendition of Bumblebee.
All this performance talk is great, but if they ruin the look (I like) does not mean much to me. I drove a Lambo today.. I would take it over a Camaro, but not over my Mustang.
If it had shorter gears, it might have been a bit more fun, but at altitude with 20" tires, it is no better spinning the tires than my 300 HP 4.6L.
This magride stuff that came out on the 1LE, and supposedly that could not beat a Boss.. so throw in a big block equivalent motor, the only thing they will do on the track is restrict it and the mass is no different than before according to the expected weight.
That said, the Gen 6 Camaro might be interesting as long as it does not look like the latest rendition of Bumblebee.
All this performance talk is great, but if they ruin the look (I like) does not mean much to me. I drove a Lambo today.. I would take it over a Camaro, but not over my Mustang.
07-22-2013, 05:00 AM
#7
Have you guys driven a Gen 5 Camaro? I got a 1SS when they came out. It was a pig with massive understeer and to modify the suspension cost big bucks compared to an S197.
If it had shorter gears, it might have been a bit more fun, but at altitude with 20" tires, it is no better spinning the tires than my 300 HP 4.6L.
This magride stuff that came out on the 1LE, and supposedly that could not beat a Boss.. so throw in a big block equivalent motor, the only thing they will do on the track is restrict it and the mass is no different than before according to the expected weight.
That said, the Gen 6 Camaro might be interesting as long as it does not look like the latest rendition of Bumblebee.
All this performance talk is great, but if they ruin the look (I like) does not mean much to me. I drove a Lambo today.. I would take it over a Camaro, but not over my Mustang.
If it had shorter gears, it might have been a bit more fun, but at altitude with 20" tires, it is no better spinning the tires than my 300 HP 4.6L.
This magride stuff that came out on the 1LE, and supposedly that could not beat a Boss.. so throw in a big block equivalent motor, the only thing they will do on the track is restrict it and the mass is no different than before according to the expected weight.
That said, the Gen 6 Camaro might be interesting as long as it does not look like the latest rendition of Bumblebee.
All this performance talk is great, but if they ruin the look (I like) does not mean much to me. I drove a Lambo today.. I would take it over a Camaro, but not over my Mustang.
Most actual track comparisons say the Camaro suspension help it edge out the Mustang even with lower power.
07-22-2013, 01:33 PM
#8
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Eskimo Village, Indiana *No Igloo*
Posts: 7,907
Have you guys driven a Gen 5 Camaro? I got a 1SS when they came out. It was a pig with massive understeer and to modify the suspension cost big bucks compared to an S197.
If it had shorter gears, it might have been a bit more fun, but at altitude with 20" tires, it is no better spinning the tires than my 300 HP 4.6L.
This magride stuff that came out on the 1LE, and supposedly that could not beat a Boss.. so throw in a big block equivalent motor, the only thing they will do on the track is restrict it and the mass is no different than before according to the expected weight.
That said, the Gen 6 Camaro might be interesting as long as it does not look like the latest rendition of Bumblebee.
All this performance talk is great, but if they ruin the look (I like) does not mean much to me. I drove a Lambo today.. I would take it over a Camaro, but not over my Mustang.
If it had shorter gears, it might have been a bit more fun, but at altitude with 20" tires, it is no better spinning the tires than my 300 HP 4.6L.
This magride stuff that came out on the 1LE, and supposedly that could not beat a Boss.. so throw in a big block equivalent motor, the only thing they will do on the track is restrict it and the mass is no different than before according to the expected weight.
That said, the Gen 6 Camaro might be interesting as long as it does not look like the latest rendition of Bumblebee.
All this performance talk is great, but if they ruin the look (I like) does not mean much to me. I drove a Lambo today.. I would take it over a Camaro, but not over my Mustang.
*insert monster head scratch*
07-23-2013, 09:06 PM
#10
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: CO
Posts: 310
The Z-28 is a 1LE with some additional lightening to compensate for the 427 cu in Corvette engine in it right? The mass of the Z28 comes out about equivalent with the SS with the 376 cu in LS3. The 1LE was reported to run a track faster than the Boss 302 in one article I have seen, but cannot remember the one.
This one edges to the Boss:
http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-new...-ar132541.html
In Road and Track you can find the skidpad and slalom numbers
Boss LS = 1.02 g and 74 mph
1LE = 0.99 g and 71.9 mph
Corvette ZR1 = 1.08g and 77.9 mph
Z28 = 1.07g.. I call BS for the ones off the line
A Mustang will not beat a Corvette in most situations, no surprise there.
My point is, the Z-28 will have a different balance and my guess is it will not corner quite as nimbly as the 1LE since it will have a larger engine and probably . Even with Corvette suspension and an equal power engine, the Camaro 1LE cannot beat an old live axle Boss LS. So implying the Z28 will be superior is not accurate from what I have read. This is of course is my opinion until the tests come out.
My experience with the Gen 5 is it is a pig and costs a lot to bring it on par with a Mustang like mine where Steeda Boss springs and a cheap set of Konis balanced the performance, i.e. no understeer, a little bit of controllable oversteer when I push it too hard.
The gears on the Camaro IRS, unless they have improved them may have a hard time supporting the HP from a 427, my point is with the right gearing, even an underpowered 4.6L can take a normal SS at 1/2 the price.
The 2015 Camaro on the alpha chassis could be another story if it comes in on par with curb weight with the S550, but if it looks like the new Bumblebee http://wot.motortrend.com/revealed-b...#axzz2ZvM7U9CA I will not be a fan even if the performance then beats the S550.
So if you are still scratching your head, I don't know what to say...
This one edges to the Boss:
http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-new...-ar132541.html
In Road and Track you can find the skidpad and slalom numbers
Boss LS = 1.02 g and 74 mph
1LE = 0.99 g and 71.9 mph
Corvette ZR1 = 1.08g and 77.9 mph
Z28 = 1.07g.. I call BS for the ones off the line
A Mustang will not beat a Corvette in most situations, no surprise there.
My point is, the Z-28 will have a different balance and my guess is it will not corner quite as nimbly as the 1LE since it will have a larger engine and probably . Even with Corvette suspension and an equal power engine, the Camaro 1LE cannot beat an old live axle Boss LS. So implying the Z28 will be superior is not accurate from what I have read. This is of course is my opinion until the tests come out.
My experience with the Gen 5 is it is a pig and costs a lot to bring it on par with a Mustang like mine where Steeda Boss springs and a cheap set of Konis balanced the performance, i.e. no understeer, a little bit of controllable oversteer when I push it too hard.
The gears on the Camaro IRS, unless they have improved them may have a hard time supporting the HP from a 427, my point is with the right gearing, even an underpowered 4.6L can take a normal SS at 1/2 the price.
The 2015 Camaro on the alpha chassis could be another story if it comes in on par with curb weight with the S550, but if it looks like the new Bumblebee http://wot.motortrend.com/revealed-b...#axzz2ZvM7U9CA I will not be a fan even if the performance then beats the S550.
So if you are still scratching your head, I don't know what to say...