Genxer

To me the Volt is bit pointless for now. I save gas but have to spend $40k to do it? When the tech trickles down and gets cheaper, then GM will have something. That's how it goes. Get some cars in the hands of consumers to learn from the experience, while developing more economical ways of implementing new tech.

A division simply has to put the manpower toward new technologies rather than building a whole division around it. Those teams can experiment and build prototypes to get things as near perfect as possible, then do a limited rollout on certain model cars to test real world function.

Cruzinaround

Funny...I don't remember much if anything about the VOLT or any informational campaign from GM. Maybe a few images and lots of speculation about it. Which is always a recipe for failure since you set the expectations higher than what can be delivered upon. Innovations require a proof of concept approach that is transparent, with a test rollout and test products to get real world feedback while being transparent. I've witness this type of rollout many times and its a proven recipe for success in regards to finding the answers "to get it right" before actually bringing it to Market. Again...I'll point to your Silicon Valley PITA.

I do remember how recalls are problematic and that many models have been the subject of multiple recalls. Which again could be a result of trying to cut corners in production costs. This pisses people off and does in fact turn them away as far as brand loyalty. But its how that Brand handles the resolution of these problems that can also have the customer base "Keep the Faith" in that company instead of jumping ship. Proof of Concept projects require that it is answering for every possible contingency prior to coming to Market. And learning from past mistakes weighs heavy on the outcome.


Innovation done right....make all the mistakes prior to market and account for every possible error prior. And have a definite plan in place to deal with any possible errors after the fact. Testing, Testing and more testing.

The error for the VOLT was more in the execution of this as a whole.

Yes, that's how its starts as an internal division that is not transparent. Projects are secretive and not heard of until the company is ready to pull the trigger based on internal research without public input or additional resources from specialty production shops with a better perspective on many areas that this "Team" may not have the ability to get their minds around. FORD has the SVT internal Division. If there was a push for Transparency and a sharing of knowledge then perhapse If they threw all the resources towards this team and pushed a Partnership with American Muscle shops from SALEEN, SHELBY, ROUSH and HENNESY to work on specific areas that are their specialty then adopt those along with more forward thinking pushes from the elite supercar shops like PAGANI, Koenigsegg, SSC.... It would then be wise for them to build a division and farm recruit the best from those examples. Or have some type of a fellowship rotation for an exchange of knowledge and expertise ongoing.

BoOm

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jz78817

then you weren't looking.

Cruzinaround

If it was really mind blowing and innovative... It would have and should have been in my face whenever browsing my news conduits everywhere. It simply wasn't such a big deal. The Tesla was. In fact the Fisker Karma had more hits on my browsing history than the VOLT. Perhaps this was a Marketing shortcoming (there's that word again).

Just saying
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jz78817

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

JIM5.0

Being frankly blunt, to say a whole Division makes it easier to bring innovations to mass production is naive.
You called SVT an internal division, but it's not. It's a Team or a sub-department of the engineering department. SVT is also a group of dedicated non-engineers such as concept artists to render SVT styling and possibly even marketers to advertiser the SVT trims.
As for innovations, even non-SVT engineers and other people who aren't part of SVT have successfully brought Ford innovations to mass production.
You're not selling me that a seperate division makes it easier to bring innovation to mass production.

I'm confused now because you're kinda all over the place: First you were "just saying" that Ford should bring back Mercury or create a whole new brand name division to push innovation.
Now, you are implying internal divisions (Teams) are what you mean.
Which of my guesses is right? If you mean an innovations division should be created to exist as a whole brand name division with dealerships and all the other functioning of a division like Lincoln, then I say you are wrong because a brand name division will be focused on profitability , marketing to be the catalyst for sales, and of course, sales profits. Brand name divisions have little or no room to think about expending hundreds of millions in radically new innovations like water engines or a 500 mile range all electric vehicle.

If you mean division as what you call "internal division," then you are already insisting that Ford do what they are already doing: dedicating people to innovation. Ford has people already on the ball doing such things. They research, develop, test ideas, send in applications to the patent office, etc. I can assure you that Ford, GM, Toyota, Fiat-Chrysler, Volkswagen, etc. are already using dedicated tams to R&D radically new innovations such as the camless valvetrain, more efficient electric motors for hybrid cars so they can get more battery mileage on existing battery technology, cheaper methods to mass produce expensive materials such as carbon fiber for body panels and even the chassis, etc.

Innovations being done right is correct. And whatever innovations car companies are are researching and developing right now are already being done by dedicated people without the need of any kind of division.

Good luck getting companies to be transparent especially with how cut-throat the industry is (or any other industry, not just the car industry).
Car companies do not advertise what they are developing or what they are researching; there is too much fear of corporate espionage. Other factors are in play that make it more advantageous to be secretive. You don't want to tip off a competitor that you are working on an innovation because what if that competition is further along in the innovation but they have put it aside from now? If you advertise to everyone that you are working on the innovation, the competition will pull their project off the shelves and finish it before you do and put it into production first. You just lost millions in R&D when you could have waited for them to produce it first so you can learn from their mistakes.
This is just one example. I'm sure there are numerous other reasons why being secretive is better than to advertise you work in transparency.

Prior to Volt hitting the sales lots, it had its fair share of advertising. But why would GM push it and advertise it massively when other vehicles are doing very well in sales? Volt is not a flagship vehicle like the Malibu of Camaro of Silverado trucks. It's meant to be a green alternative to the existing lineup of Chevy vehicles. Volt is meant also as a supplement to existing models; Volt was never meant to replace any of them or be a flagship model.
Moving to hybrid production is not cheap. Toyota Motor Co at first sold Prius AT A LOSS per car. It was awhile before TMC started turning a profit from Prius and its other hybrid model trims.
GM could be in the same boat; and after going through bankruptcy, paying off its loans from the bailouts, and shedding massive portions of itself, GM is not looking to sell dozens of thousands of Volts at a loss. GM could be taking it slow and would probably ramp up hybrid advertisement once the subsidization is completed and Volt is finally making a profit.
To say that Volt was not advertised is naive.
To say that what advertising Volt received is too little too late is also just as naive. You cannot assume that massive marketing to push it would be the wise thing to do now without knowing the whole picture.

BoOm

and

Just Saying

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JIM5.0

I am replying to this as a separate post because this is completely beside the point.

I seriously doubt that water combustion engines are further along than I think. But I am assuming that you are referring to an engine that runs only on water and no other kind of fuel.

The 6-stroke engine concept could be closer along to being mass produced and sold, but that is not an engine that runs only on water as a fuel. It requires traditional fossil fuel to create one combustion and then water is introduced in the 5th stroke as a means of recovering heat energy to vaporize the water to create steam to power another power stroke.
You will still have to buy gas or diesel, or you could run on natural gas or some other traditional fuel, but this engine is not a water-only engine.
Unless you mean a 6-stroke engine in which one power stroke is fueled by traditional fossil fuel and the other power stroke is the vaporization of water into steam, I seriously doubt an all water engine is anyplace near mass production.

BTW, even a steam locomotive of the '50s were not all-water engines. They required a burning source (wood, coal, oil) to fire up a firebox which in turn boiled the water into steam and then finally powered pistons.
Likewise, nuclear aircraft carriers and submarines use fissile plutonium or uranium to create the heat to boil a liquid into steam to power turbines.

Cruzinaround

SVT = Special Vehicles team.

They recruit their best to throw at this team internally. Where the team takes the direction of any projects..... could find them tapping resources from outside entities.

Period.

And don't paraphrase here or take things into your own context. I painted a thought of Mercury can be brought back to fill the role of an innovations division, where a team like SVT can be even more imaginative and productive. It would be good for the use of a familiar brand name and the fact that as far as imagery ...it has to be something hot to make the metal called mercury move and expand. SVT can light that fire.

Just Saying

But, I also said the division could just as easily be called Bluebeastsrt or for that matter JIM5.0 and everything still applies.

Again.. I wasn't moved by any news about the Volt. It would be naive to say I'm naive in that regard. Simply put... it was nothing...that mattered to me or moved me in the news I read... and I go through a lot of trending news in the work I do. Believe me... GM never had a hit with the Volt, and its not going to be one. In the world of news... the Volt is not on the list for innovative game changers.

BoOm.

and stop getting stuck on examples to elicit free thinking... water engines are in many forms right now...Salt water combustible sterling engines powered by radio wave emitters are made in the USA. Others use principles of hydrolysis to covert the hydrogen in the water into the combustible required and that's just the tip of the iceberg . Still I wouldn't call it the future...perhaps just a piece of it and there are obviously other means of propulsion also in motion, but if the Petrol/Electric concept has proven anything forward thinking...its that a combination of different propulsion methods can be combined successfully.

As far as Transparency....well.... depends on who's aware that fossil fuels won't be here forever.... Tesla is transparent. Openly sharing any of the engineering spec for anything they make... And I would think that since they're not going to stop at just batteries. There's more in the mind of Elon coming our way. And although his methods are seen as rather indulgent and self serving egotistical...I'm saying he's a welcomed change in the entire process of just getting it done, and therefore in that regard innovative. A definite game changer. And in his wake we now see other manufacturers not afraid to really tackle the electric car with performance and mass production in mind.

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jz78817

NO. They said they'd offer certain patents in their portfolio available royalty free. That's not the same thing as sharing their engineering/functional specs with the industry. Patents rarely if ever describe a finished design.

JIM5.0

Whoa, time to take it down a notch.
I asked if my interpretation and assumption of what you said is correct.
I'll ask again to try to clear the air:

1st interpretation: Is your idea of a division a full blown name brand division? (A full division with sales lots and all the functioning like Lincoln?)

2nd interpretation: Or do you mean "division" as internal teams like SVT but no sales lots or full functioning like a whole name brand division?

That will eliminate what you see as my "false interpretation" or blind assumption of what you said.

If my assumptions are wrong, I was not trying to anger you, I was only "Just Saying" to put it in your words.

I still don't buy that FoMoCo needs a whole new (or resurrected) division to focus on innovations.
I'm pretty sure Ford has people doing just that right now in the manner you are describing: Focusing efforts to R&D and being funded to make these efforts happen.

Who knows? FoMoCo probably has a whole separate internal division (Team) doing just this sort of thing. It's probably called "Shadow Team" or Ninja Team" that we don't know about.

Just Saying

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You were not moved by GM's advertisement of Volt. But the green-minded potential customers heard; their ears are attuned to key words such as "Hybrid" or "Green" etc. You're a marketer. You should know how psychology comes into play in targeted advertising.
The potential customers who are MPG minded are also attuned to things 40MPG Highway, 35MPG City.

Again, for all we know, GM purposefully did not do massive advertisement of Volt.
Go back and reread my post #66 for my speculations on why.

Also, I was not calling you naive for not being moved by lack of Volt marketing.
I was saying that it is naive to think that GM should have pushed Volt harder without understanding the whole GM picture and what their goals are.

For all we know, GM might have little use in pushing Volt hard into the market at this time. Given all the factors in play and what GM's goals are, heavily advertising Could be a very bad move for the entire company's health.

That's my speculation (or my BoOm) on why Volt was not heavily advertised.


See jz78817's post #69 above.