Cruzinaround

Well then the only thing that fell on its face here is the Z28 is not really attainable in its current form for most people. And its not very practical either. If they took the Ford approach and released a Z28 and a Z28R then perhaps it would be easier to swallow with a Z28 coming in at the same price point as the GT500.

Even if there is additional investment to downgrade the brake package... Then the point is ...its not really race ready. And more than 90K to make it so. Sort of misleading and false advertising. If you want to argue for that 90K.

Sort of like a lost demographic on rich boys who could find far better double duty street/race vehicles to throw their 90+K at. Which is likely a VERY small audience.

I'm told the Boss 302 Leguna Seca is actually a track ready version of the Ford Mustang. Kind of stripped down, no back seats, and a track key package.... Also no where near 90K. And obviously more practical as a street-able car. Can even pull a daily driven status...albeit just barely..

Just saying
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PNYXPRESS

No doubt Ford has done a better job at with price gaps for different functions. All of the mustang lineup is priced to where if you spend the money to bring one up to the level of the next you might as well just bought the next level up to start with.

If you think about it though, the z/s8 is actually a good buy, all things considered. its on par for pricing with the other race cars in its class.

The Boss LS is no where near stripped down, only thing it doesn't have is a back seat. It is a great handling car but, in my opinion, its only for autox or the occasional open track day, not for a serious track car, at least not with its stock suspension. Same thing for the new Camaro 1LE.

Cruzinaround

What Race Cars? I know of other actual Cars.... Not race cars. ... At that price point... you're looking at some really sweet euro offerings or even better Corvette Options that are better suited to street driving.

PNYXPRESS

Yes, they are just that, street cars. You will not find another car that has the handling capabilities of the z/28 from the factory in the CTSC for less than $90K and is competitive. And that is what that car is for.

Im sure when the new GT350 racing variant is released it will continue to use the 5.0L Cammer engine as they have since the FR500C debuted.

You have to look at what the car was designed for and its intended use. Not what people actually use them for.

Cruzinaround

As is from the factory at 90k...its still not race ready... not really anyway. So my point.... It's a misfit. It's good enough off the floor to be a race car... just not really prepared to race. Which then leaves it as an out classed street car in many categories.

Again I'm sure there are retards out there going to jump on it saying its a wonderful car. But that really depends on what their expectations are ... because even as a car compared to other 90K offerings.... for 90K!!!... there are far too many shortcomings to make this an intelligent purchase.

Aside from the fact that at 90K its just not attainable for the same market that used to drive z28's when I was picking street races with them in my Fox body.


From a practical perspective.... No sale.

I'm sure the market for these is really TINY. So it must be a case of putting it in the lineup as a badge of honor to have finally bested Ford? But, did they really best anyone? Not.

Hmmm

For far Less I would look to the Porshe Caymen R in the mid 60K range. More Practical All around for double duty Street-able and Race ready.

That's likely more where the GT 350 falls into.

And what would be considered a smart purchase.

Just Saying

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BTW...Why would you think they would opt for the 5.0 over the 5.2 FPC?
I guessed that if they were going to foray back into racing then the FPC was their foot back in the door.

I suspect a new GT would even be bourne from this push.
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PNYXPRESS

The base is actually closer to the $73k mark. And all that is needed to be legal for the CTSC GS class is send it to Pratt-Miller for the cage install, then swap out rotors, and strip interior.

Again, you have to look back at the reason for the z/28 and the Boss 302 and the GT350

Shelby was a road racer, the GT350 was basically built as a turn key racecar that people endup buying for street use. Chevy built the z/28 to beat the GT350s in the trans-am series, which it did. Ford then built the Boss 302 to beat the z/28 in that series.

fast forward to the 80's and 90's--The trans-am series got away from using stock production cars and just slapped logos onto purpose built tube chassis' with widebodies. This caused the street variations to stay low in cost cause the only thing the two shared was a name plate.

Now with the rebirth of what is basically the trans-am series with the IMSA CTSC- the cars are once again production based. Todays z/28 is essentially the same as the 1966 GT350 vs the 1966 mustang GT as in there was a large price increase for the time period.


Yes the market is tiny, its about the same as the market is for the 302R, 302S, and what ever the racing version of the GT350 will be. These are race cars first street cars second. One reason the z/28 comes with a warranty covering track use is they are using it to develop new parts and they want people to push the car to the limit in as many "real world" race settings as possible to see where they need to improve for the next regular model SS. Same thing Ford does. The 5.0L coyote wasn't new in 2011. they had been running and testing that engine right out in front of everybody in the FR500C. But no one paid attention cause it was a "race car".

Not really, the caymen is in the ST class so you cant compare the two. As a street car yes, the caymen would be a better choice, so would the new corvette ZO6, however, if you were just looking for a street car then why would you even consider the z/28 and not the SS 1LE?

The same can and will be said about the GT350 and the Racing variant which will be easily double the price for what you call "half the car"

If the new race GT350 has any motor other than a 5.0L I would be willing to bet that in no more than 5yrs that will be what comes in the production mustang GT.

Cruzinaround

Well seeing as how Carrol Shelby would recommend the GT 350 over the Gt 500 to his friends saying it would be more fun to drive and last longer....

Perhaps that's the thinking here as well.

What I'm not believing is the suggestion that Chevy would put the z28 out there for consumers to bang away at it for real world feedback. That's an exceptionally poor argument for having the vehicle in the line up simply because unless that target customer base is the professional racer, although we all would like to think we are, they are simply not getting the data fast enough to make a real dent in any R&D.

What you're suggesting works better if they simply build a race car and throw it at a racing team. Then actively race it A LOT....Again, the bitching and moaning I'm reading from people is the Camaro clocks in at 90K....perhaps this is once it's been altered to actually race? Still... not practical. By any means. And I'm sure it bloats up from there if it then has to conform with restrictions and more regulations. Simply put...If you need a racecar then perhaps the 302R as a completed package is in the end the better deal in terms of time and ROI. Since a race car is no longer about personal pleasure but also winning on occasion....otherwise why race at all since the opportunity for any prize winning or sponsorship is just not there.

Which then again drops this Car to the status of a toy for peeps with more money than brains.

Thus my stating that the GT 350 is built to provide a more fulfilling experience ... not ROI. Simply because you are buying a car that can race not a racecar you can drive to the gas station. Unless of course you quantify the comfort level and the driving experience couple with the amenities and capabilities as your personal ROI. Then if that were the comparison....the Camaro is likely to always come up short.

Maybe the ZL1 or the 1LE could fill that void.... but as such a big hulking vehicle with admittedly poor vision out of the driving position... until they find the right formula with the CTS chassis and makeover.... they're still coming up short.

Which again brings up the Porshe Caymen R. In terms of being a racecar... its more practical... and again ...since we're not professional racers, although we like to think we are, then the ST class is possibly a better fit for the majority of the target demographic....which again eclipses the very TINY segment that the likes of a Z28 could possibly address.

Maybe Chevy should be sued in a class action for providing an enabler for wealthy stupid people to continue to make stupid decisions as a compensation for a small pecker and little boyhood dreams of being speed racer?

Just saying
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PNYXPRESS

That's because Shelby actually built the GT350 from a mustang to be a racer whereas the GT500 was built to strictly be a high hp street car.

Todays GT500 and GT350 are built by Ford to be nice street cars nothing more nothing less. The aftermarket is what turns them into anything else.

The Z/28 IS a racecar. it is currently racing in the CTSC races on the IMSA circuit along with the 302R and M3. The Zeta chassis is extremely competitive and Stevenson Motorsports had a couple of wins this year. The difference is chevy built a racecar that is capable of street duty and is offering it for ~$73K that then has to have a cage installed (by Pratt-Miller per the rules) the rotors replaced with a steel unit and the interior stripped. this will end up with a cost of roughly $90-100K ready to race.

Ford offers the 302R which is not street legal but is ready to race with a few small changes depending on rule changes ( mostly shocks depending on series sponsor) for $100-120K.
Actually the Z/28 is a better buy since if you have a failure since the drivetrain is factory GM where as the 302R engine is built by RoushYates.

The GT350 is going to be a great streetcar for occasional autox but it will not make a great racecar in its stock form.

The 1LE package is subpar to the z/28 for racing. This is why the teams that are winning and running up front are running the z/28 and not the older Camaro GS-R (yes that is what the race prepped SS was called) with basically what became the "new" 1LE suspension package.

Again the caymen is a different class and is like saying should of bought a Miata over a M3.

By putting that kind of pricetag on these factory built racecars (302R, z/28, 911rsr) they are marketed toward the professional racer and not the normal everyday guy.

The ST class is street cars that wealthy people modify and go out and race professionally.

This statement here just shows your ignorance on the subject. The same could be said about the 302R, 302S, and CobraJet. all these cars are in the $75-125K range directly from Ford available to anyone that wants one.

Cruzinaround

You sort of answer the question that is basically under this back and forth... The z28 is for a professional racer....BUT.... Then why sell it as a consumer option ....Its not going to provide the feedback you suggest since the average consumer who isn't a professional racer will likely be buying it as their weekend collector car and parking it far more than driving it. You know the fanboys that just have to have one in their garage. Which again makes a GT500, Boss302 or the GT350... more practical in every way. And of course more attainable.

AutoX is far more common for the average guy. Its an attainable target that doesn't translate into throwing away money. The car you buy to satisfy this and still pull duty as a street car. Is the more practical application. The Z28 is a niche toy at best. And for the ST class you don't have to be wealthy, you have to be intelligent in your platform choice to satisfy a hobby. Considering the cost of rotors, tires and other components that either require some modifications...hence the huge aftermarket that allows the working joe to bring their Mustang or Porshe or Civic up to racing spec with a bit of money put aside from their paycheck...

Not arguing here...just simply presenting what it is. If you want to call it a street car...its marginally acceptable as that. Case in point... drive it in the summer. You'll cook in it. Drive it in the Winter? Really? You're suicidal unless you also swap out the tires. So what it is in its base selling price.... is a stripped down waste of moneyto say I have a badassed Z28. If you're married...and your wife has any brains... this will be a hard sell.

IROC. This was the race of the day that transformed the Camaro and the Mustangs, etc etc in the 80's and 90's. It was a drivers challenge in basically factory equipped cars all prepped the same way. Hence the IROC z28 or the IROC Daytona. Not unaffordable vehicles for the time and a realistically good value for their time. You could push it all you want. But the mere fact that the Z28 is now a rich man's toy rather than a working man's reward is simply counter intuitive to what it was in our time. (Assuming you're in your mid 40's).

Which again points to a major fail to argue it comes with a warranty in order to fuel feedback to make improvements. That ain't happening from the Working joe's input. Its happening from the career racer. And there are few of them who make their name known as a household item. Therefore again a niche demographic. And in our world not applicable to what the working joe should look to put his money on. If its a part of Marketing to simply say we built it there's a major BUT that come with that statement. Also...if you are a career racer there is also a boatload of insurance you need to fork out to cover the investment in that vehicle. Because, more often than you may want to admit ... if there is a failure in the components of that warranty backed drivetrain that results in an accident causing damages... you'd be a fool to think the GM warranty will cover everything. Again... NOT practical in any form as a choice for any consumer looking to say its my daily driver....and if they do make that claim it would come with a long riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.... while rolling their eyes.

And...PNY...there is nothing ignorant about my ending statement. If you again take it for what it is.... You say its a racecar. Yet 'as is" off the showroom floor... you can't really race it. Even if it will do well on a track you can't compete with it in the given configuration. You then technically have to pay to downgrade(you understand what downgrade means right) the brakes. How's that for a counter intuitive approach? Here ya go potential buyer of this potential race car. Oh But, before you go out and actually race it you'll need to downgrade your brakes, strip out more of the interior,,wait... oh and possibly swap out the tires for ones that are allowed since if they are too wide you aren't going to be allowed on the track either oh and let's not forget replacing portions of the exhaust since for the street it's likely restricted to comply with emissions to pass inspection. And you might even need to place a restrictor on the intake to level the playing field so your achievement is based on your skills and not on the merit of the vehicle, because its about being a professional racer with the ability to drive among your equals not only about the car making you the perfect driver. Hmmmm. That's a lot of fine print no one is mentioning in the car reviews.

So again... all taken into account... a stupid purchase. Which is why the task focused options you rebut with...

Are not applicable...since they are task specific builds and then become an investment into what you do for a living. With an expected return on that investment in the form of winning. Not something to park in your garage and brag about but not really race. They are then the smart buy. Whereas a z28 is a stupid idea from a practical sense.

If that was the case I'd but the 302 R and the GT350. Over the long term I have two task specific vehicles and as for the GT350...one that can pull double duty for some autoX or possibly more.

And that "is what it is" PNY...

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PNYXPRESS

Again, what the cars intended use and market is and what the buying public actually do with it is two different things.

For example, at work we have a Ferrari 430 scuderia that we use for track use like it was intended to be used for. The local Ferrari dealer now refuses to service the car and told us we are driving the car too much and they don't like what we are using it for.