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V6 (1994-2004) Mustangs Technical discussions on the 3.8L and 3.9L V6 torque monsters
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Old 09-21-2013, 10:17 AM   #1
mo3nzo
 
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Smile Supercharger use on track?

Just a quick question before dwelling more into this. Has anyone had experience or knows about FI when used in racing conditions? I.e. kept at near red line for over 25 min at a time.

I have a 1999 3.8l 5-speed that I track regularly with (about 4-8 events a year or roughly 12-24 times 30 min sessions). I was thinking of different ways to make power for the straights and supercharging seems the most favorable root.

I'm looking at centrifugal superchargers only, and tbh my FI knowledge is limited. The only superchargers I ran across were the P-1SC and the V-3 S-trim.

Most reviews talk about daily-driver usage, but I'm more curious about how the stock 3.8 internals handle max boost (7-9 psi) for long periods of time.

I don't want to put too much money into this, as its just for experimentation purposes. I'm hoping to achieve somewhere close to 320 rwhp with the supercharger + dyno tune, computer chip, fuel injectors, CAI and maybe a UDP.

Is 320 a realistic goal? Based on general calculations, if a P-1SC stage 1 gives a min of 40% hp gain, that means with a base of 190 rwhp and then 15-25hp through computer chip and CAI, etc. that would land me at 290hp. With 50% it would be 310hp.



Tl;DR

Will a 3.8 with stock internals handle max boost at 7 to 9 psi for 25-35 min at a time?

If so, what supercharger (centrifugal) will you recommend and what is the realistic power output (at the wheels) I'd expect?


I know there's a ton of posts on SC's, but none I found talk about track use. I know a guy who ran an SC on his S2000 and tracked it with so many problems (mainly oil line leaks), so I'm worried about it myself.


Thanks!
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Old 09-21-2013, 02:41 PM   #2
jthorn9
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OK let's cover a few things first.

The super charger selection for 94-04 Mustangs is rather limited, only Vortech and Paxton made kits for those years, and neither of which, to my knowledge, still produce kits today.

The superchargers they made, in kit form, were intended for stock/near stock cars for street/limited track use only.

To run the car in the manner you're talking about you're gonna have to spend some cash. There isn't any way around it. Superchargers put a lot of added stress on an engine and it's accessories. Don't built the engine right for the application and you're gonna fry it the first time around.

So in short you need to get forged internals. Yes the factory internals will hold up to around 10 PSI "safely" but for short burst of time. Prolonged boost may damaged the factory components.

Secondly, both companies made "improved" units. Meaning stronger internals and smaller pullies for more boost. Once you make your decision you need to call up the company and ask them how the factory kit units hold up under those loads. You may need to buy an upgrade/rebuild kit to handle the added stress.

You're also gonna have to overhaul your transmission. This is often the most over looked component of any build and the most important. Your factory transmission is neither built or rated for those kinds of stress levels. You will need to get heavy duty internals that are rated for around 300-400 ftlbs of torque.
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13 Mustang GT CS - 380 RWHP 370 TQ
13 Mustang V6 PP - 270 RWHP 260 TQ

95 Mustang SVO - 400 RWHP 400 TQ sold
08 Mustang GT - 285 RWHP 305 TQ sold
99 Mustang Cobra - 280 RWHP 290 TQ sold
11 Mustang V6 - 270 RWHP 260 TQ sold
97 Mustang GT - 190 RWHP 250 TQ sold
00 Mustang V6 - 145 RWHP 184 TQ sold
98 Mustang V6 - 125 RWHP 210 TQ sold
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Old 09-21-2013, 03:38 PM   #3
mo3nzo
 
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Originally Posted by jthorn9 View Post
OK let's cover a few things first.

The super charger selection for 94-04 Mustangs is rather limited, only Vortech and Paxton made kits for those years, and neither of which, to my knowledge, still produce kits today.

The superchargers they made, in kit form, were intended for stock/near stock cars for street/limited track use only.

To run the car in the manner you're talking about you're gonna have to spend some cash. There isn't any way around it. Superchargers put a lot of added stress on an engine and it's accessories. Don't built the engine right for the application and you're gonna fry it the first time around.

So in short you need to get forged internals. Yes the factory internals will hold up to around 10 PSI "safely" but for short burst of time. Prolonged boost may damaged the factory components.

Secondly, both companies made "improved" units. Meaning stronger internals and smaller pullies for more boost. Once you make your decision you need to call up the company and ask them how the factory kit units hold up under those loads. You may need to buy an upgrade/rebuild kit to handle the added stress.

You're also gonna have to overhaul your transmission. This is often the most over looked component of any build and the most important. Your factory transmission is neither built or rated for those kinds of stress levels. You will need to get heavy duty internals that are rated for around 300-400 ftlbs of torque.
AM does sell the procharger p-1sc kit at the moment.

Which parts of the engine would take priority when coming to forged internals? I.e. would I just need to get a forged crank, or pistons/ rods, etc.?

Trying to avoid going the forged internal route, I wouldn't mind hurting the engine during the process as long as the SC stays alive (and as long as the engine stays alive/repairable during the process).

I wouldn't mind rebuilding the transmission. Any specific kits you would recommend? AM sells the ford racing rebuild kit for the T-5.


Judging from your post I don't think I'll be going the SC route now, that's exactly what I needed to know - thank you

Basic bolt-ons it is.
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Old 09-21-2013, 05:33 PM   #4
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There are other things I would do on a V6 that sees a lot of track time to make it fasters/more fun before the blower.

That being said, there are a few things that contradict themselves. You will want a good dyno tune - so no 'chip' is needed. You will not want an UDP, as it will limit the performance of your blower. CAI isn't used, either.

For an open track Mustang, I HIGHLY suggest the ProCharger (with the intercooler) over the other V6 kits made. From what I have seen, they are the best made, will offer the least problems and give you the best power result for the type of driving you are talking about.

If you have a good tune and take care of the car, I would shoot for about 300 hp on an otherwise stock motor - which is very do-able with the ProCharger. It will make a very fun track car, if you have the rest of the car sorted out (suspension & brakes).

Got details about the rest of the car?
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Old 09-21-2013, 08:27 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by LilRoush View Post
There are other things I would do on a V6 that sees a lot of track time to make it fasters/more fun before the blower.

That being said, there are a few things that contradict themselves. You will want a good dyno tune - so no 'chip' is needed. You will not want an UDP, as it will limit the performance of your blower. CAI isn't used, either.

For an open track Mustang, I HIGHLY suggest the ProCharger (with the intercooler) over the other V6 kits made. From what I have seen, they are the best made, will offer the least problems and give you the best power result for the type of driving you are talking about.

If you have a good tune and take care of the car, I would shoot for about 300 hp on an otherwise stock motor - which is very do-able with the ProCharger. It will make a very fun track car, if you have the rest of the car sorted out (suspension & brakes).

Got details about the rest of the car?
It would make sense why the UDP would limit performance. But out of curiosity, why would a CAI harm performance? Is it from increased combustion pressure (if thatís what it does)?

A good dyno tune is for sure if I supercharge. If I have extra money and time Iíll get the heads cleaned and ported too (but thatís a big MAYBE).

The procharger kit you talk about is the one I have in mind. The price point is a bit daunting so Iíll be hunting for overstock sales or a used kit (any tips on going used?).

So would you say that that kit will handle the stresses from short track sessions? More so, would the stock internals be alright with the required maintenance etc.? And if so, how much boost is the most I can run on it?

There has been some work done to the car. Hereís a quick list:

Maximum motorsports MM3 coil over kit (Best road racing dampers offered by MM)
MM road race control arms
MM full length SFCís
Ford racing differential bushings
MM camber plates
Hyper coil springs at 475/425lb F/R
MM front bump steer kit

^All of the above are yet to be installed^

OMP Champ FIA seat (bolted to floor)
OMP Superquadro steering wheel
Hawk blue brakes all around (soon to be upgraded to HT-10 or DTC-70/60)
ATE blue fluid
SS lines front and rear
Sumitomo HTRZ-3 tires (soon to run non-dot slicks)
17x9 aluminum wheels (to be swapped with 18x9/9.5ís Ėeasier to find slicks in those sizes)
UPR clutch cable adjuster
MM clutch pedal height adjuster
Steeda aluminum clutch quadrant
Steeda Tri-Ax shifter
SCT tune at 93 octane
BBK CAI

I also need to replace the clutch as well as the differential as theyíre almost done. Theyíll be replaced with a stronger clutch and an LSD.

As well, the entire of the interior is stripped (takes guts to gut out a perfectly good looking interior)

Thatís pretty much everything haha.

Thank you
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Old 09-21-2013, 11:17 PM   #6
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Roush can clarify the rest, but in addition to my post and to answer your question, by forged internals I mean forged everything, complete rotating assembly.

As Roush stated a essex 3.8L can handle around 350 bhp safely. However that is for short durations of time, I highly doubt the stock internals will hold up long under the loads for increased durations of time.

As far as it damaging the engine yet being repairable, that's a severe crap shot. It could damage the engine in multiple ways, the worst of which being a piston shooting through the block, or throwing a bearing in the crank. Either scenario will likely completely destroy the motor/block itself.

I would not take short cuts doing this. Sure it saves $1000 or so, but it will cost double to triple that to repair what "could" be damaged by not doing it right the first time.
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13 Mustang GT CS - 380 RWHP 370 TQ
13 Mustang V6 PP - 270 RWHP 260 TQ

95 Mustang SVO - 400 RWHP 400 TQ sold
08 Mustang GT - 285 RWHP 305 TQ sold
99 Mustang Cobra - 280 RWHP 290 TQ sold
11 Mustang V6 - 270 RWHP 260 TQ sold
97 Mustang GT - 190 RWHP 250 TQ sold
00 Mustang V6 - 145 RWHP 184 TQ sold
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Old 09-22-2013, 07:10 AM   #7
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First off, that sounds like a killer car. You gotta post some pics as you get it all put together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mo3nzo View Post
It would make sense why the UDP would limit performance. But out of curiosity, why would a CAI harm performance? Is it from increased combustion pressure (if thatís what it does)?
The supercharger will come with it's own air inlet system which is designed to work specifically with it. It will replace all the piping from the air filter to the throttle body.


Quote:
The procharger kit you talk about is the one I have in mind. The price point is a bit daunting so Iíll be hunting for overstock sales or a used kit (any tips on going used?).
American Muscle has about the best price on them. If you find a used kit, I'd send the head unit in to ProCharger and have it rebuilt. Shaft play on the impellor is going to be the biggest thing to look for. The other thing about used is sometimes it will be missing small parts that are required for install.

Quote:
So would you say that that kit will handle the stresses from short track sessions? More so, would the stock internals be alright with the required maintenance etc.? And if so, how much boost is the most I can run on it?
I've seen the intercooled ProCharger up to 9 psi run all day on otherwise stock 3.8L. I would not push the 11 psi pulley on a track. Stick to that 300 hp range. If your motor is in good shape, it will take that all day long. The nice part about road racing is you don't need loads of power, you want a well rounded car. Suspension and brakes are more important than big power. My '98 is only putting down 347 @ wheels, but it's just as quick around the track as my big hp V6. When I was younger, I chased big power thinking that would make me faster. With time under my belt, I now know that's not true.
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2000 Roush #5004 - World's FIRST M112'd V6 Mustang. Sold, but not forgotten.
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Old 09-22-2013, 11:04 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by jthorn9 View Post
As far as it damaging the engine yet being repairable, that's a severe crap shot.
I agree that's not the best way to go at it. 3.8 engines are pretty cheap though (between 200 to 600). But it isn't a good idea to let the engine blow in the first place


Quote:
Originally Posted by LilRoush View Post
First off, that sounds like a killer car. You gotta post some pics as you get it all put together.

I've seen the intercooled ProCharger up to 9 psi run all day on otherwise stock 3.8L. I would not push the 11 psi pulley on a track. Stick to that 300 hp range. If your motor is in good shape, it will take that all day long. The nice part about road racing is you don't need loads of power, you want a well rounded car. Suspension and brakes are more important than big power. My '98 is only putting down 347 @ wheels, but it's just as quick around the track as my big hp V6. When I was younger, I chased big power thinking that would make me faster. With time under my belt, I now know that's not true.
Haha it doesn't look so killer yet.. yet

The car is supposed to be turned into a full-out race car eventually, but pics will be up once the coil-overs are in and the interior cleaned up a bit (summer '14) :smile:

The motor is in good shape, it's just the driveline that can't handle the stresses from the track very well (or maybe I just abuse it too much). Engine has no overheating issues (knock on wood) and runs fine on the track with 30 min sessions back to back with only 10 to 15 min breaks.

9 psi sounds ideal for the time being, just want to make the car accelerate quicker. Going the forged internal route isn't very appealing since a) I haven't rebuilt an engine before and b) if I forge internals I won't have money left to supercharge it.

I get what you mean by power isn't everything in road courses - I've sat in M3's and S2000's with slicks, big brakes, and coilovers and God those things can stop ridiculously quick and turn even faster.

But power is always fun I just want to be more competitive with the faster cars out there. It's not fun when you don't have anyone to chase around the track and be chased by - I'm driving the car at roughly 85 to 88% of its limit on average.

Supercharging sounds fun because it really is just a bolt-on, and I can always sell it or re-use it on another engine.

But the more I think about it, the more I wonder if I should go this route so early. With just the coilovers on the car and slicks (and more *****) I should be getting pretty quick.


I just want a 'vette damnit
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Old 09-22-2013, 11:55 AM   #9
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I just want a 'vette damnit
No you don't. I used to beat up on the high dollar Vettes with my little 'ol V6.
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Old 09-22-2013, 12:19 PM   #10
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No you don't. I used to beat up on the high dollar Vettes with my little 'ol V6.
Videos please
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Old 09-22-2013, 12:19 PM
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