The Magic Combination of Fuel and Air
12-03-2012, 10:38 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 42
The Magic Combination of Fuel and Air
I'm the proud owner of a 2009 Mustang V6. I've been upgrading it every couple of months. I figure giving it time to settle and the KAM to adjust itself.
I started out with a BBK CAI which really helped the engine to breath and I noticed the increase of the performance. At the time, I had no real way of tracking such... except my personal Butt Dyno.
Two weeks ago I installed a BBK 70mm Throttle Body and intake spacer. I had several issues with installing it, the prior owner did not have the original bolts and thus gave me an "MML" 1/2 inch spacer with bolts. No gasket. Once I installed them and took a few trips around the block I heard the whistle. At the time I did not know it was the "The infamous BBK whistle". Thinking it was a leak with lack of a gasket. I used RTV silicone sealant to make a new gasket between the spacer and the TB. Here's where I'm hitting issues but this time, I have a means to record some data.
I'm noticing that my Fuel Long Trims when idling are 15 and 14. While the Short Terms and instantaneous avg out to zero (rough sin wave).
When I accelerate hard, the first change is the engine load.. when it first peaks out the the Long Terms jump up to low twenties while the short terms and instantaneous work their way up.
What I'm noticing is the lag in power... There is a hesitation when I step on the pedal before the car really starts to pick up speed.
I know that to fully use the CAI and the TB (w/spacer) I will need a tune. What I don't know is if there is anything that I can do between now and when I get a tune to smooth this out.
I'm noticing the more I drive that with the new TB, to get to the power, I've got to down shift and get the RPMs up. When I do this the fuel trims spike up and stay up well past when I throttle down. If I don't "rev up" then the power is not firm and solid. In this "powerless" band, I hear the whistle.
Below is an image of the data.
I started out with a BBK CAI which really helped the engine to breath and I noticed the increase of the performance. At the time, I had no real way of tracking such... except my personal Butt Dyno.
Two weeks ago I installed a BBK 70mm Throttle Body and intake spacer. I had several issues with installing it, the prior owner did not have the original bolts and thus gave me an "MML" 1/2 inch spacer with bolts. No gasket. Once I installed them and took a few trips around the block I heard the whistle. At the time I did not know it was the "The infamous BBK whistle". Thinking it was a leak with lack of a gasket. I used RTV silicone sealant to make a new gasket between the spacer and the TB. Here's where I'm hitting issues but this time, I have a means to record some data.
I'm noticing that my Fuel Long Trims when idling are 15 and 14. While the Short Terms and instantaneous avg out to zero (rough sin wave).
When I accelerate hard, the first change is the engine load.. when it first peaks out the the Long Terms jump up to low twenties while the short terms and instantaneous work their way up.
What I'm noticing is the lag in power... There is a hesitation when I step on the pedal before the car really starts to pick up speed.
I know that to fully use the CAI and the TB (w/spacer) I will need a tune. What I don't know is if there is anything that I can do between now and when I get a tune to smooth this out.
I'm noticing the more I drive that with the new TB, to get to the power, I've got to down shift and get the RPMs up. When I do this the fuel trims spike up and stay up well past when I throttle down. If I don't "rev up" then the power is not firm and solid. In this "powerless" band, I hear the whistle.
Below is an image of the data.
12-03-2012, 10:41 PM
#3
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 42
12-03-2012, 10:53 PM
#4
6th Gear Member
You mentioned that you installed a TB spacer. Now nobody will speak to you.
Aftermarket TB's are useless for power gains on the S197; both the 4.0 and 4.6; and are often frought with problems. And TB spacers are a joke, worth hanging on the xmas tree for a good laugh.
The only big power gainer is a CAI & a good custom tune for about 15-20 RWHP on the 4.0. Stand alone, no-tune-required CAI's yield about 3-6 RWHP gain only.
Aftermarket TB's are useless for power gains on the S197; both the 4.0 and 4.6; and are often frought with problems. And TB spacers are a joke, worth hanging on the xmas tree for a good laugh.
The only big power gainer is a CAI & a good custom tune for about 15-20 RWHP on the 4.0. Stand alone, no-tune-required CAI's yield about 3-6 RWHP gain only.
12-03-2012, 11:05 PM
#5
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Indiana
Posts: 1,717
That aftermarket TB has a good chance of damaging the TB motor as other members have experienced.
You are probably just running really lean with the CAI and chances are the TB spacer is giving you the fluctuating RPMs by creating small high pressure pockets of air. That spacer is way too small to net you any gains at all, the surface area just isn't there to allow for a great enough change in air flow. Wasted money.
You should have gotten the tune/cai, and saved the rest up for an 8.8 rear end with a steeper gear ratio.
You are probably just running really lean with the CAI and chances are the TB spacer is giving you the fluctuating RPMs by creating small high pressure pockets of air. That spacer is way too small to net you any gains at all, the surface area just isn't there to allow for a great enough change in air flow. Wasted money.
You should have gotten the tune/cai, and saved the rest up for an 8.8 rear end with a steeper gear ratio.
12-04-2012, 08:45 AM
#6
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 42
I've noticed that opinion around the forums about spacers for the S197. I would have preferred to install the TB without the spacer but the prior owner did not have the original screws... only the ones with the spacer. Considering I got the spacer for free with the TB... meh on the spacer.
Will any tune leverage the larger TB without FI?
Will any tune leverage the larger TB without FI?
12-04-2012, 10:04 AM
#7
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Acworth, GA
Posts: 3,666
I've read numerous post, due to issues members have suggested removing the BBK throttle body and spacer, then re-installing the stock TB. Get your money back and put it towards the hand held tuner with custom tunes from a reputable company such as AM or Brenspeed. =-)
12-04-2012, 01:18 PM
#8
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 42
Quick question about the following.
Is there a size where the spacer does provider gains? I see the PowerAid spacer looks to be an inch or so.
I did not see any, but are their any credible dyno results testing spacers?
I did not see any, but are their any credible dyno results testing spacers?
12-04-2012, 01:30 PM
#9
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 42
Steering the thread back to the delay or lag in power.
I'd like to learn more about the trims and maybe a more theoretical solution. Since I'm noticing the engine load increasing when I attempt to accelerate while the mixture runs lean until the trims can catch up. I'm curious why a tune would not be able to push the trims back closer to when the load increases.
Maybe increasing the amount of fuel being injected. Instead of letting the trims increase the injection duration what about increasing the amount of the injection (per unit time).
Patrickl
I'd like to learn more about the trims and maybe a more theoretical solution. Since I'm noticing the engine load increasing when I attempt to accelerate while the mixture runs lean until the trims can catch up. I'm curious why a tune would not be able to push the trims back closer to when the load increases.
Maybe increasing the amount of fuel being injected. Instead of letting the trims increase the injection duration what about increasing the amount of the injection (per unit time).
Patrickl
12-04-2012, 01:44 PM
#10
Gentleman's Relish
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: AZ
Posts: 13,090
Remove aftermarket TB spacer, remove aftermarket TB. Reload tune without these devices.
Then ask for answer to above question.
Sorry but TB spacers and aftermarket TB's are junk and a waste of resources/time. That lag is probably BBK TB related.
Who set up your tune for the BBK stuff? As a bandaid they may be able to provide a quicker throttle tip-in meaning less pedal travel for the same amount of fuel and faster TB response.
Again, I would simply dump both those parts (off a cliff) ...first.
Then ask for answer to above question.
Sorry but TB spacers and aftermarket TB's are junk and a waste of resources/time. That lag is probably BBK TB related.
Who set up your tune for the BBK stuff? As a bandaid they may be able to provide a quicker throttle tip-in meaning less pedal travel for the same amount of fuel and faster TB response.
Again, I would simply dump both those parts (off a cliff) ...first.