Handling problems after service - opinions please.
01-12-2008, 10:05 PM
#22
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NC
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RE: Handling problems after service - opinions please.
ORIGINAL: mpatilla
I myself wouldn't check or adjust alignment unless there were driveability problems. Maybe this is a dumb question, but did they balance the tires?
I myself wouldn't check or adjust alignment unless there were driveability problems. Maybe this is a dumb question, but did they balance the tires?
01-13-2008, 09:55 AM
#23
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 356
RE: Handling problems after service - opinions please.
ORIGINAL: richmod
Camber and caster are not adjustable on our cars stock, only toe. Since I had no handling issues right before taking it in, I don't think they could have altered camber or caster in any way to cause such a sudden change in handling. Interesting info though - thanks. What is Helms - some sort of manual? If so, is it any better than Haynes or Chilton? Where do you get it?
Camber and caster are not adjustable on our cars stock, only toe. Since I had no handling issues right before taking it in, I don't think they could have altered camber or caster in any way to cause such a sudden change in handling. Interesting info though - thanks. What is Helms - some sort of manual? If so, is it any better than Haynes or Chilton? Where do you get it?
http://www.helminc.com
Spendy, but worth the $, IMO.
And yes, by default the camber and caster isn't adjustable, but the manual does have a procedure for adjusting if absolutely neccessary. Which they probably didn't do, but you never know.. loose fasterners maybe?
I was going to add that a lot of independent alignment shops offer free checks, too - if you've got a reputable chain wherever you live (Les Schwab here in the NW), I'd try them.
01-13-2008, 10:01 AM
#24
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Join Date: Jun 2007
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RE: Handling problems after service - opinions please.
I'm just spit-balling, but I just recalled that when I had a BMW 3 series, I was getting a similar drift/pull, sometimes more pronounced when hard braking at freeway speeds, and it was the front control arm bushings wearing out, thus throwing off the toe-in.. maybe those were tweaked with?
01-13-2008, 10:13 AM
#25
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Fenton, MO.
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RE: Handling problems after service - opinions please.
Well beleive this or not.
I replaced the stock tires with the BFG's at about 12000. Just for the heck of it I had the tire store check the front end alignment................it was out and had to be re-aligned. (all highway miles)
Now, just for arguments sake, lets say that your front end was out of alignment right from the factory. This would have caused the front tires not to wear properly.
Then when you had them rotated, as suggested in the owners manual, it screwed up the tracking and the car feels like its pulling to one side or another.
A friend of mine thats driven Fords all his life and is a mechanic swears by only moving the front tires straight to the backand thefront tiresstraight to the front withoutrotating from side to side. He says rotating them will cause the car to not handle properly.
My $0.02
I replaced the stock tires with the BFG's at about 12000. Just for the heck of it I had the tire store check the front end alignment................it was out and had to be re-aligned. (all highway miles)
Now, just for arguments sake, lets say that your front end was out of alignment right from the factory. This would have caused the front tires not to wear properly.
Then when you had them rotated, as suggested in the owners manual, it screwed up the tracking and the car feels like its pulling to one side or another.
A friend of mine thats driven Fords all his life and is a mechanic swears by only moving the front tires straight to the backand thefront tiresstraight to the front withoutrotating from side to side. He says rotating them will cause the car to not handle properly.
My $0.02
01-13-2008, 10:25 AM
#26
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: United States
Posts: 263
RE: Handling problems after service - opinions please.
I have been aligning cars for a few years, and I do conciter myself an expert on the subject. Your car should be going staight according to the specs, except for the the fact that your toe is a little positive, and you want that a little negitive. I would have it sit right about -.05 each side. At the same time I don't think that alignment is the problem as long as thier machine is accutate. I think it is what is called radial pull. This is basicly an unevenness in the structure ofyour tires, and can really make yourcar track weird. Have your car's tires rotated back and drive it. It will probaby go away. If not, 1 of 2 things has happened: 1 the machine is messed up or 2 the tech fudged your alignment. Ifit doesnt go away with the rotationtake it to another shop and have it re-aligned. And to save you a little money get the cheap toe only alignment as that is the only adjustment on a umodified s197 (camber can be adjusted if the bottom holes in the struts are oblonged, or camber bolts are installed).
01-13-2008, 12:44 PM
#27
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RE: Handling problems after service - opinions please.
ORIGINAL: Glengemen
I have been aligning cars for a few years, and I do conciter myself an expert on the subject. Your car should be going staight according to the specs, except for the the fact that your toe is a little positive, and you want that a little negitive. I would have it sit right about -.05 each side. At the same time I don't think that alignment is the problem as long as thier machine is accutate. I think it is what is called radial pull. This is basicly an unevenness in the structure ofyour tires, and can really make yourcar track weird. Have your car's tires rotated back and drive it. It will probaby go away. If not, 1 of 2 things has happened: 1 the machine is messed up or 2 the tech fudged your alignment. Ifit doesnt go away with the rotationtake it to another shop and have it re-aligned. And to save you a little money get the cheap toe only alignment as that is the only adjustment on a umodified s197 (camber can be adjusted if the bottom holes in the struts are oblonged, or camber bolts are installed).
I have been aligning cars for a few years, and I do conciter myself an expert on the subject. Your car should be going staight according to the specs, except for the the fact that your toe is a little positive, and you want that a little negitive. I would have it sit right about -.05 each side. At the same time I don't think that alignment is the problem as long as thier machine is accutate. I think it is what is called radial pull. This is basicly an unevenness in the structure ofyour tires, and can really make yourcar track weird. Have your car's tires rotated back and drive it. It will probaby go away. If not, 1 of 2 things has happened: 1 the machine is messed up or 2 the tech fudged your alignment. Ifit doesnt go away with the rotationtake it to another shop and have it re-aligned. And to save you a little money get the cheap toe only alignment as that is the only adjustment on a umodified s197 (camber can be adjusted if the bottom holes in the struts are oblonged, or camber bolts are installed).
As for toe, the factory specs call for positive toe, and everything i've read says rear-wheel drive vehicles usually call for a little positive toe. My understanfing is that negative toe will help cornering, but may cause the car to feel more jittery, as the wheel fight each other in opposite directions. Why do you think it should be negative?
Also, what's you opinion on the difference in camber and caster between sides. I've read it shouldn't be more than .5 difference- do you agree? Is the difference in my car acceptable?
Thanks in advance.
01-13-2008, 12:54 PM
#28
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RE: Handling problems after service - opinions please.
YOu have a 'dead' space in the middle of your of your steering wheel? As in when the wheel is centered there is a little give on either side before there is resistance? Which allows the car to drift left and right even though you're holding the wheel centered?
01-13-2008, 01:14 PM
#29
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RE: Handling problems after service - opinions please.
ORIGINAL: ohnoesaz
YOu have a 'dead' space in the middle of your of your steering wheel? As in when the wheel is centered there is a little give on either side before there is resistance? Which allows the car to drift left and right even though you're holding the wheel centered?
YOu have a 'dead' space in the middle of your of your steering wheel? As in when the wheel is centered there is a little give on either side before there is resistance? Which allows the car to drift left and right even though you're holding the wheel centered?
01-13-2008, 09:54 PM
#30
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Join Date: Oct 2003
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Posts: 263
RE: Handling problems after service - opinions please.
If it seems to go straight then your toe is the problem it needs some toe in by about 1/16" on each side. I know that a lot of specs call for some toe out, but from an experiance standpoint a sporty car needs positive caster, negitive camber, and negitive toe. This will give you the best handling and the best tracking.
My car for example is lowered, but I didn't install camber bolts so it sit right about -1.7 camber that plus the caster being right about +7.0 and toe being -.3 gives it great cornering ability. People will say I have too much negitive camber for street driving, but I have 10,000 miles on my relitivly sticky T1R tires and I have almost perfect treadware.
As for the reason for having negitive toe is due to linkage strech that will always want the tires to seperate in the front while going forward. When toeing your tires in you are compensating for that and in return your car wont wear tires and handles better.
Your total camber and caster is good and should not be changed.
My car for example is lowered, but I didn't install camber bolts so it sit right about -1.7 camber that plus the caster being right about +7.0 and toe being -.3 gives it great cornering ability. People will say I have too much negitive camber for street driving, but I have 10,000 miles on my relitivly sticky T1R tires and I have almost perfect treadware.
As for the reason for having negitive toe is due to linkage strech that will always want the tires to seperate in the front while going forward. When toeing your tires in you are compensating for that and in return your car wont wear tires and handles better.
Your total camber and caster is good and should not be changed.