The Great 5.8 Swap
04-06-2008, 10:59 AM
#12
5th Gear Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 4,182
RE: The Great 5.8 Swap
And you know... the custom headers, cpu program, wiring, chasis work, tranny, d/s, and you might as well do the axles, rear end..etc. Is gonna make this a pita. I've been there done that buddy. I had a 92 notch that I did a 351W swap in...The SVO brand new block I had lasted 6 months.. It's still in my shop but the constant tinkering, make a passthentune just was too much of a pita.. Good luck to the OP but I hope you have fun along the way,,, Because I've done these builds and never did..
04-06-2008, 12:19 PM
#13
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Near Wash. DC Posts: 13,541
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RE: The Great 5.8 Swap
ORIGINAL: pascal
As fast as a GT??!![&:]
Where have you been?
Take a 351 stroked to 427 or 460 and you get 650hp and same amount of torque.
It's of course N/A.
Good luck getting those numbers with the 4.63V without selling the house.
As far as mild stroke, a 392/408 will still woop a GT @ss all day long.
ORIGINAL: Legion5
You might be in for a sore disapointment, while the windsor espetially with a light stroke is a great engine, and had in any trim more power than a GT500 engine at the time, that was number to number and not power to power... and BEFORE Ford switched to the new HP rating system. Instead of being faster than a GT500 (which is actually slower than a corvette thanks to it's gearing), you be about as fast as a GT to be honest, unless that engine is something special.
You might be in for a sore disapointment, while the windsor espetially with a light stroke is a great engine, and had in any trim more power than a GT500 engine at the time, that was number to number and not power to power... and BEFORE Ford switched to the new HP rating system. Instead of being faster than a GT500 (which is actually slower than a corvette thanks to it's gearing), you be about as fast as a GT to be honest, unless that engine is something special.
Where have you been?
Take a 351 stroked to 427 or 460 and you get 650hp and same amount of torque.
It's of course N/A.
Good luck getting those numbers with the 4.63V without selling the house.
As far as mild stroke, a 392/408 will still woop a GT @ss all day long.
The most I've seen a boss 302 engine for comparison is at 501hp and that was heavily modified and stroked. If you take in the fact the 5.8 is the same block you can use that to easily judge how a top range 351 preforms, it should cap out at 580hp and "650+" being a rare occurence.
With that being said, my dad's brother actually owns a 5.8 windsor in a lightning pickup truck. I've worked on it and modified it had a hard time pushing 250 RWhp recently.
You have to spend 7-13k on just the engine in terms of aftermarket parts to get enough HP out of it to justify the swap which is why i am curious as to how the OP's engine is special. At that point it won't be the stroke, but all of the aftermarket parts that are doing the work, and I'm interested in that info.
As a side note the guy with the 302 who went to 500hp spent about 20k on getting the car to that point.
04-06-2008, 02:57 PM
#14
S197 Section Modder-ator
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 13,373
RE: The Great 5.8 Swap
ORIGINAL: blueherd02gt
650 bhp? Pascal.. If that were the case everybody would do it... I had that motor in my bronco. It is a truck motor
650 bhp? Pascal.. If that were the case everybody would do it... I had that motor in my bronco. It is a truck motor
Remember the 94/95 Cobra R?? You're prolly too young for the old Mach1 etc...It's still a small block, therefore a car engine.
Yes, it's the case,650hp on an aftermarket block, beefed up where it counts and all 4 bolts caps.
Man '0' War makes those, CHP and DSS to name a few.
Not everybody does this because a long block with distributor and accessories, still cost you about 10 Grands.
If you go with the 5.4, it's 15K from Ford (unless you find a used one) and you still have to get differents motor mounts, headers, supports, 6spd tranny with DS. Maybe radiator etc...
The wiring/computer ought to be fun too.
I agree with the OP on the carbureted version and the milder engine, like a 392 that won't cost near as much as the Stroked 427 I like
.For me, and I say ME, it would be less of a PITA and cheapergoing the OP route, than the 5.4 version, wich is also very cool.
I'm a custom fabricator and I have done transplants like these more than once (not on a S197) on various cars like Focus, Miata and even an old TR4 and XJS Jag. I wish I took pics of this along the years
. I had the docs for theXJS somewhere, but I lost it a long time ago... Maybe it's in Europe somewhere[&:].The first car is the hardest, because it's unknown territory. The second time, you have cut out a lot of guess work for yourself.
04-06-2008, 03:34 PM
#15
S197 Section Modder-ator
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 13,373
RE: The Great 5.8 Swap
ORIGINAL: Legion5
A boss 302 on a modern dyno produces the same hp as a v6 they even showed that on top gear because one of the presenters owns one. A stock 351 produces about the same hp as a v6 also.. at the bigger displacement, by not being oriented for preformance, which this engine sort of isn't.
The most I've seen a boss 302 engine for comparison is at 501hp and that was heavily modified and stroked. If you take in the fact the 5.8 is the same block you can use that to easily judge how a top range 351 preforms, it should cap out at 580hp and "650+" being a rare occurence.
With that being said, my dad's brother actually owns a 5.8 windsor in a lightning pickup truck. I've worked on it and modified it had a hard time pushing 250 RWhp recently.
You have to spend 7-13k on just the engine in terms of aftermarket parts to get enough HP out of it to justify the swap which is why i am curious as to how the OP's engine is special. At that point it won't be the stroke, but all of the aftermarket parts that are doing the work, and I'm interested in that info.
As a side note the guy with the 302 who went to 500hp spent about 20k on getting the car to that point.
A boss 302 on a modern dyno produces the same hp as a v6 they even showed that on top gear because one of the presenters owns one. A stock 351 produces about the same hp as a v6 also.. at the bigger displacement, by not being oriented for preformance, which this engine sort of isn't.
The most I've seen a boss 302 engine for comparison is at 501hp and that was heavily modified and stroked. If you take in the fact the 5.8 is the same block you can use that to easily judge how a top range 351 preforms, it should cap out at 580hp and "650+" being a rare occurence.
With that being said, my dad's brother actually owns a 5.8 windsor in a lightning pickup truck. I've worked on it and modified it had a hard time pushing 250 RWhp recently.
You have to spend 7-13k on just the engine in terms of aftermarket parts to get enough HP out of it to justify the swap which is why i am curious as to how the OP's engine is special. At that point it won't be the stroke, but all of the aftermarket parts that are doing the work, and I'm interested in that info.
As a side note the guy with the 302 who went to 500hp spent about 20k on getting the car to that point.
What kind of V6 are we talking about here? The stockones in thelate Mustang?[&:]
A Boss 302 (69/70)produces 290hp at the crank, according to Ford.
A 351 (69/73) is rated at 300/320, according to Ford.
The 4.0 V6 stock is 210hp at the crank, also according to Ford.
I have owned all 3 of these engines (and still do, except for theBoss)and the V6 is the SLOWEST.
Helloooooooooo... Quit watching dumb @ss shows made by foreigners with a worse accent than mine
.BTW, 302 and 351 blocks aren't the same. 351s have taller decks and are beefier.
Anyway, the 351s of the late seventies through mid 90s were a joke... Barely 250 HP[&:].
When I think 302s and 351s, it's pre 1974.
I agree with you on hi-built 302 blocks. It takes a bunch of cash to make them reach 500ponies N/A.
It's more like arace engine at that point.
Like you said, I'm also curious to see what kind of mill the OP will use and if he's gonna build it himself.
In that case, he'll save some cash.
04-06-2008, 09:35 PM
#16
5th Gear Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 4,182
RE: The Great 5.8 Swap
I'm old enough to remember when if you had a 10 sec car the whole town used to buzz in excitement.. These motors were created to pull and haul. Saleen used it in their S351s back in 95 too but hell that car was supercharged.. SVO is the only outfit I'd buy parts for this motor from though..Noone else.. Good read. I plan on buying a 2 door focus here in the next few years and dropping a s/c 3v in it...I might look you up
ORIGINAL: pascal
A 351 isn't a truck motor... Remember the 94/95 Cobra R?? You're prolly too young for the old Mach1 etc...
It's still a small block, therefore a car engine.
Yes, it's the case,650hp on an aftermarket block, beefed up where it counts and all 4 bolts caps.
Man '0' War makes those, CHP and DSS to name a few.
Not everybody does this because a long block with distributor and accessories, still cost you about 10 Grands.
If you go with the 5.4, it's 15K from Ford (unless you find a used one) and you still have to get differents motor mounts, headers, supports, 6spd tranny with DS. Maybe radiator etc...
The wiring/computer ought to be fun too.
I agree with the OP on the carbureted version and the milder engine, like a 392 that won't cost near as much as the Stroked 427 I like.
For me, and I say ME, it would be less of a PITA and cheapergoing the OP route, than the 5.4 version, wich is also very cool.
I'm a custom fabricator and I have done transplants like these more than once (not on a S197) on various cars like Focus, Miata and even an old TR4 and XJS Jag. I wish I took pics of this along the years. I had the docs for theXJS somewhere, but I lost it a long time ago... Maybe it's in Europe somewhere[&:].
The first car is the hardest, because it's unknown territory. The second time, you have cut out a lot of guess work for yourself.
ORIGINAL: blueherd02gt
650 bhp? Pascal.. If that were the case everybody would do it... I had that motor in my bronco. It is a truck motor
650 bhp? Pascal.. If that were the case everybody would do it... I had that motor in my bronco. It is a truck motor
Remember the 94/95 Cobra R?? You're prolly too young for the old Mach1 etc...It's still a small block, therefore a car engine.
Yes, it's the case,650hp on an aftermarket block, beefed up where it counts and all 4 bolts caps.
Man '0' War makes those, CHP and DSS to name a few.
Not everybody does this because a long block with distributor and accessories, still cost you about 10 Grands.
If you go with the 5.4, it's 15K from Ford (unless you find a used one) and you still have to get differents motor mounts, headers, supports, 6spd tranny with DS. Maybe radiator etc...
The wiring/computer ought to be fun too.
I agree with the OP on the carbureted version and the milder engine, like a 392 that won't cost near as much as the Stroked 427 I like
.For me, and I say ME, it would be less of a PITA and cheapergoing the OP route, than the 5.4 version, wich is also very cool.
I'm a custom fabricator and I have done transplants like these more than once (not on a S197) on various cars like Focus, Miata and even an old TR4 and XJS Jag. I wish I took pics of this along the years
. I had the docs for theXJS somewhere, but I lost it a long time ago... Maybe it's in Europe somewhere[&:].The first car is the hardest, because it's unknown territory. The second time, you have cut out a lot of guess work for yourself.
04-07-2008, 12:00 PM
#17
1st Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location:
Posts: 118
RE: The Great 5.8 Swap
So far I've spent about 15k on the engine. It has Edelbrock Victor Junior aluminum heads, a preformer RPM intake (Using that particular intake to keep power a little lower in the band for street use), roller rockers, roller lifters, about 0.512" of lift on the cam with high ratio rockers. The rotating assembly is stock except for the pistons, which are flat top hypereutectic cast pistons giving me a compression ratio of about 10.8:1, and it's been drilled and tapped with 4 bolt mains. This is all being fed by a Holley 4bbl carb.
A guy on an engine forum built a similar engine (he just had a little less compression, flat tappet lifters and a lower rocker ratio) and the engine dyno put it at around 620 flywheel horsepower. With my bigger valvetrain my 351 should be just a little more potent than that, and if we factor in a 17% parasitic drivetrain loss I think I'll have at least 515 bhp.
I know this isn't the easiest swap to do, but since it's carbureted I won't have to worry about trying to get the computer to work. I do plan on changing the rear end, and getting a 8.8 inch with a 4.10 gear and some big tires to bring that final drive ratio down a little bit.
After I swapped a 460 into my 71 Galaxie, the left over 351 was bugging me, so I figured I'd rebuild it and swap it into a newer mustang. I was planning on putting it in to a fox body, but that's just so cliche. I'd rather go big.
The advantage I see with this motor is all of the modifications I can do down the line. A new bottom end, a fuel injection system, and a centrifugal supercharger would boost my HP considerably, keep it streetable, and make it even cooler.
PS. If you look in my original post, I have two pictures of the engine. Try to ignore the mess in the backround, and ignore the rusty exhaust manifolds, I'm going to replace those with some custom or shorty headers once I get the engine mounted and taken to my local exhaust place (Iggy's for you Chicagoins).
A guy on an engine forum built a similar engine (he just had a little less compression, flat tappet lifters and a lower rocker ratio) and the engine dyno put it at around 620 flywheel horsepower. With my bigger valvetrain my 351 should be just a little more potent than that, and if we factor in a 17% parasitic drivetrain loss I think I'll have at least 515 bhp.
I know this isn't the easiest swap to do, but since it's carbureted I won't have to worry about trying to get the computer to work. I do plan on changing the rear end, and getting a 8.8 inch with a 4.10 gear and some big tires to bring that final drive ratio down a little bit.
After I swapped a 460 into my 71 Galaxie, the left over 351 was bugging me, so I figured I'd rebuild it and swap it into a newer mustang. I was planning on putting it in to a fox body, but that's just so cliche. I'd rather go big.
The advantage I see with this motor is all of the modifications I can do down the line. A new bottom end, a fuel injection system, and a centrifugal supercharger would boost my HP considerably, keep it streetable, and make it even cooler.
PS. If you look in my original post, I have two pictures of the engine. Try to ignore the mess in the backround, and ignore the rusty exhaust manifolds, I'm going to replace those with some custom or shorty headers once I get the engine mounted and taken to my local exhaust place (Iggy's for you Chicagoins).
04-08-2008, 08:38 PM
#18
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Posts: 118
RE: The Great 5.8 Swap
UPDATED: I might have myself a chassis by the weekend. I'm going to try and find time to look at an 05 salvage title 4.0 for 7500. Hopefully everything will check out and I can get this project rolling along!
04-08-2008, 08:59 PM
#19
S197 Section Modder-ator
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 13,373
RE: The Great 5.8 Swap
ORIGINAL: skiba5546
UPDATED: I might have myself a chassis by the weekend. I'm going to try and find time to look at an 05 salvage title 4.0 for 7500. Hopefully everything will check out and I can get this project rolling along!
UPDATED: I might have myself a chassis by the weekend. I'm going to try and find time to look at an 05 salvage title 4.0 for 7500. Hopefully everything will check out and I can get this project rolling along!
Here's a picture of the old 302 stroker I had in the Cougar before the 351.
My plan is to supercharge my sixxer and then put a 427 in the Cougar.
That way, I'll have an idea of what to expect for my other S197 project.
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