Switching Whipple for Twin Turbos
08-11-2008, 06:26 AM
#21
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RE: Switching Whipple for Twin Turbos
ORIGINAL: Legion5
The Saleen JDM 302 Sterling Eddition makes 720 hp - 800 hp depending who you ask at JDM. You can call them and ask them as everyone there is very knowlegable about the car. It's a 10 second car, so I have no reason to doubt the crank power rating, 770 is the number I've heard the most, but if you're saying that that doesn't make that then that's just silly.
Doubting an 850 hp whipple, would be ok. I don't think anyone has gone absolutaly all out with a completly built engine ie: big crank damper (you need that), big belt, big throtle body, intercooler, forged pistons, rods, crank, new bearings, and head gasket. Even then you might need heads and cams to reach 850. However doubting a Saleen in the 700s is ridiculous.
ORIGINAL: TJ
A Whipple 2.3L is not going to make 850rwhp and a Saleen is not going to make 770hp at 18psi.
Do you have any links of a Saleen making 770 hp at 18 psi?
ORIGINAL: Legion5
Stroking gives the engine horsepower in an eponential fashion. So with this engine at this displacement if you stroke the engine to give it 8.6% more displacement/combustion volume, it's well shown you'll get about 15%+ more hp. going to 10% gives 21% more hp. So while the gains aren't that great, they are ridiculous and advantagious mathematically speaking.
550 RWHP is definitly atainable at 14 PSI, but he engine WILL take 23-25 if you forge the whole thing, plus you can stroke it for free at that point, so you can probably get 850 RWHP out of it and it would be extremely drivable too as stroke helps that a lot. Saleen running 18 PSI with a 5 liter stroker and forged internals gets 770hp that is very drivable. 22 PSI with a 5.15 stroke = 850 RWHP safe driavable hp, but you'd need a transmission for that.
The problem it seems is that as PSI increases, you get HP but not torque. So say you have 390 R hp/tq now. It would be like 550 R HP and 490 R TQ which will feel and drive like a lot less than the average 550hp car. Torque is what damages transmission and engine parts, so this actually works in your favor considerably meaning you could run 610 rhp and 550 rtq if you set your transmission up for being able to handle 550, while on a turbo that number would be 530 rhp and 550 rtq and you'd be struck at that point because you'd break something. Unfortunatly that situation would require about 16-17 psi on the whipple.
ORIGINAL: ryanralston07
I'm not really sure what I'd like to do. I know I could spend the money on other things like suspension and building the engine up. Would 14psi through the Whipple be enough for 550rwhp with a forged bottom end and keeping the 281ci? Thinking about stroking...but gains aren't that much different from what I've seen...I think the 281ci could do all I want and more...
I'm not really sure what I'd like to do. I know I could spend the money on other things like suspension and building the engine up. Would 14psi through the Whipple be enough for 550rwhp with a forged bottom end and keeping the 281ci? Thinking about stroking...but gains aren't that much different from what I've seen...I think the 281ci could do all I want and more...
550 RWHP is definitly atainable at 14 PSI, but he engine WILL take 23-25 if you forge the whole thing, plus you can stroke it for free at that point, so you can probably get 850 RWHP out of it and it would be extremely drivable too as stroke helps that a lot. Saleen running 18 PSI with a 5 liter stroker and forged internals gets 770hp that is very drivable. 22 PSI with a 5.15 stroke = 850 RWHP safe driavable hp, but you'd need a transmission for that.
The problem it seems is that as PSI increases, you get HP but not torque. So say you have 390 R hp/tq now. It would be like 550 R HP and 490 R TQ which will feel and drive like a lot less than the average 550hp car. Torque is what damages transmission and engine parts, so this actually works in your favor considerably meaning you could run 610 rhp and 550 rtq if you set your transmission up for being able to handle 550, while on a turbo that number would be 530 rhp and 550 rtq and you'd be struck at that point because you'd break something. Unfortunatly that situation would require about 16-17 psi on the whipple.
Do you have any links of a Saleen making 770 hp at 18 psi?
The Saleen JDM 302 Sterling Eddition makes 720 hp - 800 hp depending who you ask at JDM. You can call them and ask them as everyone there is very knowlegable about the car. It's a 10 second car, so I have no reason to doubt the crank power rating, 770 is the number I've heard the most, but if you're saying that that doesn't make that then that's just silly.
Doubting an 850 hp whipple, would be ok. I don't think anyone has gone absolutaly all out with a completly built engine ie: big crank damper (you need that), big belt, big throtle body, intercooler, forged pistons, rods, crank, new bearings, and head gasket. Even then you might need heads and cams to reach 850. However doubting a Saleen in the 700s is ridiculous.
Can you post any links, dyno graph or any otherinfo showing a Saleen s/cper your quote of 770hp at 18 psi in a previous post asI would like to read the info on this esp at 18 psi. 770 hp would be around 678 rwhp, if anyone esle hashas any info ( links, dyno, etc)if you could post it I would be interested in reading it as I have not seen any info on a Saleen making770 at 18 psi..
Legion there are guys running mid 10 seconds with a Saleenon a stock motor pushing only 510-520 rwhp and that comes out to around only 590hp at the crank. So it doesn't take 770hp to run 10's
08-11-2008, 06:56 AM
#22
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RE: Switching Whipple for Twin Turbos
ORIGINAL: ryanralston07
REALLY contemplating this swap because I've kind of fell in love with the turbo sound andthe power potential with the twin turbo setuplately guys...sorry[&:]Well with the apologies said...I'm looking at this kit in the stage 1 package: http://www.turbochargedpower.com/05-...ang%20Twin.htmwith the added cost of themanual boost controller ($100), BOVupgrade ($400), Polished ($160), and the deletion of the fuel pump upgrade,Diablo kit, and injector delete as I will use the ones from the WhippleHO kit takes off ($495) . I know I need to buy another intake manifold along with fuel rails and I am guessing the kit should cost around $6560 without buying the intake manifold and fuel rails. I'm planning on just running a different pair of shorty headers and in the future forging the bottem end and running 550 rwhp for a DD. Could this kit do it for me? What's your thoughts on switching out to the Twin Turbo Kit? I wanted to go Twin Turbo, but all the other kits that were out were mounted under the car and this one you can see in the engine bay...and I LOVE that! (Wish this kit was out when I got thecar cuz I'd have Twin Turbos right now instead of a Whipple[8D]and nothing against the Whipple cuz I love it
just love turbos).
REALLY contemplating this swap because I've kind of fell in love with the turbo sound andthe power potential with the twin turbo setuplately guys...sorry[&:]Well with the apologies said...I'm looking at this kit in the stage 1 package: http://www.turbochargedpower.com/05-...ang%20Twin.htmwith the added cost of themanual boost controller ($100), BOVupgrade ($400), Polished ($160), and the deletion of the fuel pump upgrade,Diablo kit, and injector delete as I will use the ones from the WhippleHO kit takes off ($495) . I know I need to buy another intake manifold along with fuel rails and I am guessing the kit should cost around $6560 without buying the intake manifold and fuel rails. I'm planning on just running a different pair of shorty headers and in the future forging the bottem end and running 550 rwhp for a DD. Could this kit do it for me? What's your thoughts on switching out to the Twin Turbo Kit? I wanted to go Twin Turbo, but all the other kits that were out were mounted under the car and this one you can see in the engine bay...and I LOVE that! (Wish this kit was out when I got thecar cuz I'd have Twin Turbos right now instead of a Whipple[8D]and nothing against the Whipple cuz I love it
just love turbos).
I say if you love the turbo sound and power potential I would go with itturboshave anefficiency edgeover a TS S/C so that is an added benefit. Buy what you like and what you will enjoy owning which is what I do
I am a TS person Ilove (& enjoy)the wine, looks (esp Whipple) simple install, instant boost etc of TS's style s/c and is the reason I have ownedTS style s/c inthe past and will only go TS FIin the future.
So sounds like you would really enjoy owninga TT setupso I would do it.
08-11-2008, 07:31 AM
#24
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RE: Switching Whipple for Twin Turbos
ORIGINAL: ryanralston07
Putting in a stroker kit would take machining of the block...correct? Would it be better to purchase a block that already has a stroker kit in, or just machine the factory block? I've also heard that 298ci is the way to go instead of 302 because of issues with the block and functionality?
Putting in a stroker kit would take machining of the block...correct? Would it be better to purchase a block that already has a stroker kit in, or just machine the factory block? I've also heard that 298ci is the way to go instead of 302 because of issues with the block and functionality?
http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/...3A+Shortblocks
08-11-2008, 08:23 AM
#26
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RE: Switching Whipple for Twin Turbos
TJ, To clarify the first post of the two that I made earlier, there have been two people that have UPGRADED to the 3.4l whipple from the 2.3l. One of the guys who did the switch lost power in the process until he worked out some issues. He was making between 630 and 640 at the rear wheels with the 2.3l and depending how you convert to crank hp thats 750 as I said in my post originally.
JDM has extensivly dynoed their Saleen Sterling Eddition but I dont see why its hard to beleive that the car can take 18 PSI. The stock Sterling Eddition runs 14 PSI for christs sake. Also it makes at least, and supposedly much more than, 620 hp stock.
With regard to the OP it makes no sense to switch to a turbo setup if you already have a supercharger. With the cost of forging youre going to pay more for the same HP and probably less because turbos produce more torque than HP so your transmission is torque limited and youre going to be capped off at that point and end up with less hp for the same torque due to the nature of the whipple vs a turbo.
Personally I preffer superchargers because, they dont lag, theyre simpler, they have better design and build quality in the kits, and are more fitting visually under the engine bay, but Im not stopping you from getting a turbo in any way. Theres just a lot going for super charging and I hope my advice helps you pick the right modification for your car.
Good luck.
08-12-2008, 09:32 PM
#27
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Ok...so I've made my mind up to stay with the Whipple and just forge the motor. Looking at the MMR 5.0 Stroker Block. I'd rather go with a preassembled block as I've thought that buying a block preassembled is much easier than worrying about someone machining my block and putting everything in right...
08-13-2008, 07:58 AM
#28
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Due to the stories I have heard of late, I would stay away from MMR.
I would look at livernois, the ford aluminator, or bossracing.
Another thing to think about is going with a iron block over aluminum. They are about $1500 less and from what I have seen only add about 40 lbs to the car.
I plan to go this route as the cost savings is a good part of my transmission upgrade I want to do. I figure with a forged block and I can just make a little extra HP to make up for the added weight.
The nitrous kit will help too........ I am going to do a 50 shot to cool the intake charge and make a few more ponies.
I would look at livernois, the ford aluminator, or bossracing.
Another thing to think about is going with a iron block over aluminum. They are about $1500 less and from what I have seen only add about 40 lbs to the car.
I plan to go this route as the cost savings is a good part of my transmission upgrade I want to do. I figure with a forged block and I can just make a little extra HP to make up for the added weight.
The nitrous kit will help too........ I am going to do a 50 shot to cool the intake charge and make a few more ponies.
08-13-2008, 08:43 AM
#29
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Livernois' block is like an art of blocks lol I've read about it and they do a LOT of research, machining, testing, and build a killer block. Probably going with their block because I've heard nothing but great things about the 298ci they build. I'd love to have the engine out of the 302H Saleen mustangs, but I'm sure their price is waaaaaaaaaaaay above what I'm looking to spend. The only thing about Livernois is that I don't see many people with their products...like I do with MMR...
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