Highly Considering the Vortech V3 non HO kit
02-10-2010, 11:14 PM
#21
1st Gear Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 113
The kit was designed and is safe to run as-is, with no intercooler. That said, if you're planning on adding it later, just go ahead and do it up front. Why tear into the car again later? I have thought about adding it a few times, but still not sure if I will. Right now I'm leaning toward not...
I don't know how long you've had yours on your car, but your car will/does suck in Dallas with 100* temp days with no intercooler.
02-10-2010, 11:19 PM
#22
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: League City, TX
Posts: 342
You don't need a custom air/air kit, you can use the Paxton one. I do. Keep in mind that Paxton and Vortech are the same company, now. Vortech also has a Vortech-branded air/air intercooler, too, which is identical to the Paxton one.
02-10-2010, 11:34 PM
#23
1st Gear Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 113
And they actually run cheaper installed than what they offer just for parts.
http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/product.php?p=160
But my statement still stands.
Unless you live in Canada or some other cooler temp region, get the intercooled version. Whether that's the air to water or a custom air to air.
As the inlet air temp increases, so must the air after the supercharger. Higher final charge air temps means LESS timing and less timing means less HP. Plain and simple.
As the inlet air temp increases, so must the air after the supercharger. Higher final charge air temps means LESS timing and less timing means less HP. Plain and simple.
02-10-2010, 11:36 PM
#24
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,062
"you would definitely see lower IAT, but the offset in power loss would be noticeable. We developed this kit to not need the intercooler at these power levels. We did not simply remove the intercooler. I agree 160 deg. IAT is extreme and the car will be down on power for sure. If you were looking to upgrade I simply would offset the loss by adding 1-2 psi which would equate to cooler IAT as well as 30-50 additional hp." - Dave
"Even in your heat unless you up the boost levels on your kit you would see
no benefit from this cooler upgrade. The cooler is a restriction that would
need compensated before. At the boost levels you are at there would be no
specific gains by upgrading. If you would consider adding a little boost I
feel you would benefit from your plan." - Dave
As far as the car "sucking". Dude, at 100 degrees I've got news for you, that intercooler aint going to save you. Hot as hell, is hot as hell. The car clearly pulls timing on hot days, and it would with the IC as well. Beating on any car when its 100+ outside would be a dumb move. I've had the kit on for over a year now. I sincerely wish you guys would stop trying to paint this as an unsafe kit because it has no IC. Brenspeed claims they've sold 300 of them, and I have yet to hear of an explosion. FWIW, at 110 ambient outside temp, and a 160 degree IAT, the cars still faster by far than it was with an intake and tune.
Last edited by Mudflap; 02-10-2010 at 11:45 PM.
02-10-2010, 11:45 PM
#25
1st Gear Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 113
Here are a couple of tidbits from Dave @ Brenspeed in e-mail a few weeks ago. What I had asked him, was if the cooler upgrade could be just done as-is, without replacing the pulley (in other words for the cooling, and not for the power":
"you would definitely see lower IAT, but the offset in power loss would be noticeable. We developed this kit to not need the intercooler at these power levels. We did not simply remove the intercooler. I agree 160 deg. IAT is extreme and the car will be down on power for sure. If you were looking to upgrade I simply would offset the loss by adding 1-2 psi which would equate to cooler IAT as well as 30-50 additional hp." - Dave
"Even in your heat unless you up the boost levels on your kit you would see
no benefit from this cooler upgrade. The cooler is a restriction that would
need compensated before. At the boost levels you are at there would be no
specific gains by upgrading. If you would consider adding a little boost I
feel you would benefit from your plan." - Dave
As far as the car "sucking". Dude, at 100 degrees I've got news for you, that intercooler aint going to save you. Hot as hell, is hot as hell. The car clearly pulls timing on hot days, and it would with the IC as well. Beating on any car when its 100+ outside would be a dumb move. I've had the kit on for over a year now.
"you would definitely see lower IAT, but the offset in power loss would be noticeable. We developed this kit to not need the intercooler at these power levels. We did not simply remove the intercooler. I agree 160 deg. IAT is extreme and the car will be down on power for sure. If you were looking to upgrade I simply would offset the loss by adding 1-2 psi which would equate to cooler IAT as well as 30-50 additional hp." - Dave
"Even in your heat unless you up the boost levels on your kit you would see
no benefit from this cooler upgrade. The cooler is a restriction that would
need compensated before. At the boost levels you are at there would be no
specific gains by upgrading. If you would consider adding a little boost I
feel you would benefit from your plan." - Dave
As far as the car "sucking". Dude, at 100 degrees I've got news for you, that intercooler aint going to save you. Hot as hell, is hot as hell. The car clearly pulls timing on hot days, and it would with the IC as well. Beating on any car when its 100+ outside would be a dumb move. I've had the kit on for over a year now.
You really need to think about what Dave REALLY said in that note. SURE you will lose boost because of the restriction and that will naturally lose power. You then up the boost output to compensate for the restriction so the engine will actually see the identical level of boost. You will retain MORE of the performance while seeing the same EFFECTIVE boost levels.
I sincerely wish you guys would stop trying to paint this as an unsafe kit because it has no IC. Brenspeed claims they've sold 300 of them, and I have yet to hear of an explosion.
Actually if you look close you would see where I corrected YOU in saying that the TUNE makes it a safe kit.
Last edited by Mach1Marauder; 02-10-2010 at 11:50 PM.
02-10-2010, 11:56 PM
#26
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,062
Really? It will lower air temps.
You really need to think about what Dave REALLY said in that note. SURE you will lose boost because of the restriction and that will naturally lose power. You then up the boost output to compensate for the restriction so the engine will actually see the identical level of boost. You will retain MORE of the performance while seeing the same EFFECTIVE boost levels.
You really need to think about what Dave REALLY said in that note. SURE you will lose boost because of the restriction and that will naturally lose power. You then up the boost output to compensate for the restriction so the engine will actually see the identical level of boost. You will retain MORE of the performance while seeing the same EFFECTIVE boost levels.
A) The kit/tune offered by Brenspeed was put together as such to be able to be run safely at the boost level with no intercooler. They didn't simple "delete" the intercooler to save $1200.
B) The HO upgrade is accompanied by a new pulley (more boost) to compensate for the restriction that the intercooler adds to the system. You end up netting about and extra 7% power boost as well in the deal.
I guess I don't see what you are trying to drive home here man. There is no question the intercooler will lower IATs, tahts what the sob is for. When I'm sitting there at 1pm on a saturday in Dallas and its 105 degree outside on pavement that has been baking for hours, that intercooler isn't going to make my IATs 60 degrees and the car run like a raped ape. Its clearly going to have more in it than the non-intercooled kit would under the same conditions, but its not going to be like a cool day in March. I just want to set expectations for folks here.
The $3900 kit is probably the best bang for the buck on the market. My advice after being one of the first people to actually buy that kit, is to upgrade to the HO up front if you KNOW on day 1 you'll do it eventually. Sure, I don't like the fact that mine pulls a bunch of timing when its 105 outside, but then again, every other car sitting at the same stoplight is having the same struggle. If I were a drag racer, perhaps I'd care more, who knows. But if I had bought the HO up front, sitting there in 105 degree heat, I STILL wouldn't beat on it at all. 10/12 months a year, I'm fine. And the other 2 months I'm fine 50% of the time. Considering I've put 2500 miles on the car in a year and a half, well, I have my fun with it. Its a toy. GL guys.
02-11-2010, 12:06 AM
#27
1st Gear Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 113
Yeah I know exactly what Dave said there, and it makes perfect sense. The most interesting pieces of information there are IMHO
A) The kit/tune offered by Brenspeed was put together as such to be able to be run safely at the boost level with no intercooler. They didn't simple "delete" the intercooler to save $1200.
B) The HO upgrade is accompanied by a new pulley (more boost) to compensate for the restriction that the intercooler adds to the system. You end up netting about and extra 7% power boost as well in the deal.
I guess I don't see what you are trying to drive home here man. There is no question the intercooler will lower IATs, tahts what the sob is for. When I'm sitting there at 1pm on a saturday in Dallas and its 105 degree outside on pavement that has been baking for hours, that intercooler isn't going to make my IATs 60 degrees and the car run like a raped ape. Its clearly going to have more in it than the non-intercooled kit would under the same conditions, but its not going to be like a cool day in March. I just want to set expectations for folks here.
The $3900 kit is probably the best bang for the buck on the market. My advice after being one of the first people to actually buy that kit, is to upgrade to the HO up front if you KNOW on day 1 you'll do it eventually. Sure, I don't like the fact that mine pulls a bunch of timing when its 105 outside, but then again, every other car sitting at the same stoplight is having the same struggle. If I were a drag racer, perhaps I'd care more, who knows. But if I had bought the HO up front, sitting there in 105 degree heat, I STILL wouldn't beat on it at all. 10/12 months a year, I'm fine. And the other 2 months I'm fine 50% of the time. Considering I've put 2500 miles on the car in a year and a half, well, I have my fun with it. Its a toy. GL guys.
A) The kit/tune offered by Brenspeed was put together as such to be able to be run safely at the boost level with no intercooler. They didn't simple "delete" the intercooler to save $1200.
B) The HO upgrade is accompanied by a new pulley (more boost) to compensate for the restriction that the intercooler adds to the system. You end up netting about and extra 7% power boost as well in the deal.
I guess I don't see what you are trying to drive home here man. There is no question the intercooler will lower IATs, tahts what the sob is for. When I'm sitting there at 1pm on a saturday in Dallas and its 105 degree outside on pavement that has been baking for hours, that intercooler isn't going to make my IATs 60 degrees and the car run like a raped ape. Its clearly going to have more in it than the non-intercooled kit would under the same conditions, but its not going to be like a cool day in March. I just want to set expectations for folks here.
The $3900 kit is probably the best bang for the buck on the market. My advice after being one of the first people to actually buy that kit, is to upgrade to the HO up front if you KNOW on day 1 you'll do it eventually. Sure, I don't like the fact that mine pulls a bunch of timing when its 105 outside, but then again, every other car sitting at the same stoplight is having the same struggle. If I were a drag racer, perhaps I'd care more, who knows. But if I had bought the HO up front, sitting there in 105 degree heat, I STILL wouldn't beat on it at all. 10/12 months a year, I'm fine. And the other 2 months I'm fine 50% of the time. Considering I've put 2500 miles on the car in a year and a half, well, I have my fun with it. Its a toy. GL guys.
Re-read what I said about effective boost and see if you can grasp it. If not, feel free to PM me and I'll be happy to see if I can explain it over the phone better.
It's really not that difficult of a concept to grasp and I feel you can do it pretty easy.
Nite man
02-11-2010, 12:13 AM
#28
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,062
I could go into it further here, but I'm tired as hell.........It's been a long day.
Re-read what I said about effective boost and see if you can grasp it. If not, feel free to PM me and I'll be happy to see if I can explain it over the phone better.
It's really not that difficult of a concept to grasp and I feel you can do it pretty easy.
Nite man
Re-read what I said about effective boost and see if you can grasp it. If not, feel free to PM me and I'll be happy to see if I can explain it over the phone better.
It's really not that difficult of a concept to grasp and I feel you can do it pretty easy.
Nite man
Have a good night, this discourse has reached the point of dumb to continue quite frankly.
02-11-2010, 08:23 AM
#29
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,482
Ah HA...After all the pages and posts I've read on this non HO vortec V3, this is what I wanted to hear (though I expected it was the case)...I really wanted to hear from a Texan, where it's hot as H*ll, that this kit "handles" the heat...I'm right inline with flap, last year my queen saw 2400 miles, all on nice saturday mornings putting (well, a little more than putting) around town...this kit is perfect for me...One question flap, did you install yourself?
02-11-2010, 09:13 AM
#30
1st Gear Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 113
Dude, look no offense, but I'm not a retard nor do I need your "help". Dave's responses and my interpretation of them make 100% sense given the precursor scenario I stated: which was the question I posed to Brenspeed about the theoretical scenario of doing nothing but bolting the air/water IC onto the car as-is. I wanted to know what that would do, and I am pretty sure that question was answered, as was the question about the kit being designed to be safe with no-IC (this is the "big" question people ask about this kit). That was really what I was pointing out for the folks eyeballing this particular kit.
Have a good night, this discourse has reached the point of dumb to continue quite frankly.
Have a good night, this discourse has reached the point of dumb to continue quite frankly.
No where have I seen anyone post that this kit is not safe. As a matter of fact, I told YOU what made it safe. It's not the components with the non-IC kit. It's "all in the tune", in this case Brenspeed. They are great guys! The times that my customers needed service from them for a tune or whatever, Dave has come thru with flying colors and handled as I would.
I'm NOT addressing you now flap, so you can ignore the remainder of the post. As you said, no need to continue between US.
This is a fine kit for most regions of the country as it sits. I would not recommend it for the more hot regions of the country. NOT that it is a dangerous system, but because the power will fall off DRASTICALLY from what it could be with an intercooled system. There is no magical way of tuning around that.
In a VERY simple terms, an intercooler will help you RETAIN the most HP possible when the summer temperatures rise. That's about as simple as I can put it.