dkersten

So I heard there was a winter storm coming and I have some projects to do in my garage, so I figured it was time to get a storage unit rented and get the Mustang over there for a bit so I can get the garage converted back to a woodworking shop for the winter.

I hadn't had the top up for at least two months, and was frustrated as hell when I couldn't get it to line up or latch! I really had to tweak the heck out of it, pushing from the back part around the window toward the front of the car to get it to line up.. It has always lined up perfectly but there was absolutely no way it was happening from inside the car. After about fifteen minutes of messing with it I got it to line up finally. After it was latched I ran the motor back and forth a few times to see if stressing it in each direction would get it back to straight. The odd thing is, I know there hasn't been any weight on the top when it was down, so I am thinking the only reason it is tweaked is because of too much horsepower.. When I get on the throttle, the whole car twists pretty noticeably, and I wonder if all that twisting tweaked the convertible top frame a little, causing the misalignment.

Anyway, after finally getting it latched, I drove over and stored it.. I will have it out a few more times before Winter is upon us fully, but for now it is out of the way. I ordered new plugs on the advice of Kenne Bell in effort to fix the cold run issues (I've changed just about everything else, might as well try plugs again), so once the snow melts I will bring it home and get the plugs in and whatnot. I might also have the rear end done *again* before winter, but I might just wait til spring so I can drive it and break them in better..

The snow is flying today, so I definitely got it over there just in time.. This storm is supposed to last the week, and then hopefully it will warm up.. Pretty crazy that it was in the 90s a week ago..

I figure at the end of the month I will drop a bottle of Stabil in, drive it over and disconnect the battery and take the Liability insurance off for the winter..

Riptide

Also got mine in the garage sitting now. Checked the tire pressure and did a small detail on the interior and exterior. Did the 15k service this weekend. Friend helped me out with that.

Probably will have it out again a few times just like you but it's obvious the iffy weather is starting to make it's appearance now. Might be clear tomorrow though. High of 50 and windy. The roads might dry off a bit and if it warms up enough I'll go fill up the tank.

Nuke

I hear ya'. This will be the first winter that I'll be really storing the Stang for a few months (probably 4) with no chance of pulling her out before hand. The first 2 winters I was in Kentucky with winter lasting MAYBE 2-3 months but I could pull her out of the garage when it was dry and run her. But now I'm living with the g/f in NE Illinois and both of our Stangs (and my boat) will be stowed from around Thanksgiving (or earlier) untill early April at a relatives pole barn about 2 hours away. I'm going into withdraw as I think about it.

dkersten

I'll be honest, I am glad to have it in storage.. I'm sure once the weather is warm again I will be itching to have it out, but I spent way too much of my time working on it this summer..

I did like 12 car shows, hit the local weekly show'n'shine every week except 2, and spent around $7000 on it.. On top of that, I still have issues with the way it runs when cold, and the rear end is all messed up.. I have at least $1000 to spend before it's where I want it, and that's if I can find this damned cold run problem without having to spend more money. The stress of dealing with the issues combined with spending way too much money, combined with almost every weekend at car shows and the endless detailing, I am ready for winter.

It's like a girlfriend that you spend too much time with.. you just need a break every so often.

The upside is, this whole winter I will be thinking about what to do next.. I think it will be a custom stereo system. I have the engine compartment looking really good now, so it's time to make the trunk look good too. The only thing holding me back from that is money.. I cringe every time I think about spending more.. By December, the money won't cross my mind any more and I will only be thinking about building a sweet fiberglass subwoofer enclosure, and by spring, I will be itching to get out and drive..

It's an endless cycle..

Riptide

I can certainly understand being "done" with the car for a while. Winter definitely provides the opportunity for break time. The cold run issue would frustrate the crap out of me and at this point I'd probably want to wash my hands of it for a while too.

Last year I had the stock pirelli all seasons on there. I could drive it any time during the winter if the roads were clear. This year is gonna be different... Summer tires on the car mean if it's under 40 degrees it's gonna sit. I have a feeling I'll be lucky to put 500 miles on it between November and March.

Come end of October I'll also top the tank and put some Stabil in there as well. Great stuff.

mygt500

dkersten- do you have a thread on the cold run issue? If not can you give me some info on here or thru PM?.....have you datalogged anything yet?

I hear ya on the winter storage. Glad I got the car out last week but I have a half tank and hope for one more dry day before Nov. to get the car full and then add the stabil and cruise for a bit to get it all circulated. I have to change the oil still before storage too. Anyway from 90 to snow is drastic and in this country I guess it is safe to assume- always expect the unexpected in the USA! The weather is so unpredictable.

Hope all gets hashed out soon with the cold run issue

dkersten

I detailed it out on another forum as I tried to work through the problem over the summer.
The problem started as soon as the Kenne Bell Stage 1 went on. I noticed it the first morning, I went to pull into traffic and it just fell flat on its face, so in a panic I added throttle, at which time it took off and turned sideways, so I let off and gave less throttle and it bogged, then gave more and it took off, going sideways again.. I repeated this two more times before I was out of danger of getting hit by oncoming cars. Since that morning I have been trying to find the problem. Most mechanics automatically think the tune is the problem and start looking at it that way, but Kenne Bell has a good point on this: This tune works in all S197s they have sold kits for, and all those engines came off the same assembly line. If you had to custom tune every car for a supercharger, you would also have to custom tune every car off the assembly line, and that is not the case. Sure there is more power to be had from a custom tune, but given the same engine, the same supercharger, and the same tune, with NO other changes from vehicle to vehicle, they should run about the same. Mine runs drastically different, suggesting a mechanical problem somewhere.

If you are interested, here is some recap:

Symptoms:

* When cold, pushing the throttle while engine is under any load results in "bogging", "sputtering", and even "popping" if I hold the throttle when this happens. Popping sounds as if fuel is still burning when coming out of engine.
* When the bogging occurs, AF gauge jumps up to very lean (16-17:1), and will go off the gauge (over 17:1) if pedal is not released immediately. If I hold the pedal down, eventually it will "take off" and run.
* "feathering" the throttle to get it running allows me to take off and drive normally, but going from idle to throttle under load immediately causes the problem, *most of the time*.. this is an intermittent problem, sometimes it seems to drive fine and only bogs a little, sometimes much much worse. (could be environmental conditions causing differences).
* This occurs after the car has sat for a period of time (usually 3-5 hours minimum), and seems to be worse the longer the car has sat.
* Starting the car and idling to operating temp will not fix the problem, it has to be driven under load for the problem to go away.
* If the gas pedal is pushed fairly hard (80-90%) before engine is fully warm, P0172 and now P0175 codes will come up (engine bank too rich).
* LTFT on each bank reads between -6 and -25 when car is idling or cruising. Any increase in the gas pedal will jump this number to zero immediately (ie if I am cruising steady and the LTFTs read around -18%, giving 5% more pedal will make the LTFT jump to zero, then settle back to -18%).
* Usually LTFTs are around -15 to -20% with a spread of about 4% from bank 1 to bank 2.
* Fuel Rail Pressure, as reported by the OBD2 port, sits at 39-40 psi, will usually jump when any throttle is applied, and will drop when throttle is let off.
* Timing is usually around 45* advance when no load is present, and will be around 14-16* under WOT.
* When coming off engine load, idle was dropping as low as 300 rpm, then "hunting" for a short period to about 750. Replacing throttle body seems to have helped, with only occasional idle hunting now.
* Leaning out the tune slightly resulted in much better looking fuel trims, but idle went erratic (despite replaced TB), and bogging and sputtering was present when engine was warm (only when throttle was applied under load, and only for a second before engine would take off).
* Problem seems to be getting WORSE over time..
* When warm, car dyno'd at 440 rwhp and 401 rwtq on current tune.

Here is a recap of what I have done in attempt to fix problem.

* Replaced plugs with known working plugs (original factory), no change.
* Replaced 90mm MAF, no change
* Fixed vacuum leak in connection between plenum and supercharger, problem seemed to get worse.
* Smoked engine extensively, fixed a few very minor vacuum leaks, mostly at connections between MAF and Throttle Body. if anything, it runs worse than before I tightened those connections.
* Replaced fuel pump (with another GT stock pump), no change, although pressure seems to react quicker to smaller changes in throttle.
* Replaced fuel filter, no change.
* Removed BAP vacuum switch, no change. Metered BAP output at 17.2 volts.
* Removed BAP altogether, no change.
* Replaced fuel injectors, no change.
* Replaced possibly pinched fuel line, fuel trims are a little closer than before, P0175 codes on cold run now, on top of P0172 (only P0172 before).
* Replaced entire Throttle Body (TPS and TAC plus TB), idle is more stable, still occasionally drops down coming off throttle, but not nearly as bad as before.
* Added screen to MAF housing, no change. (KB sent this to me, it goes between filter and MAF housing)
* Tried different tunes sent by KB, runs a little better when cold, bogging not as severe or as frequent, but throws rich codes when cold if given a lot of throttle. (I think he richened it up a bit and set it to run closed loop even when cold)
* Tried adjusting MAF table by -3% - fuel trims were closer to zero at idle and cruise, but bogging and sputtering problem occurred even when engine was warm.

I've datalogged a lot, and sent it all to Kenne Bell. They requested long pulls with gradual throttle (ie, 4th gear starting at 1500 rpm, gradual throttle until WOT, pull as long as I can without going to jail). I also logged some bogging but nothing looks out of whack or any different from when engine is warm.

After recapping the above info to KB, they recommended trying some brisk plugs, saying they have had way too many problems with the autolites. I ordered a set and they will be in before the weekend, although it may be a week or two before I get them installed and tested due to weather.

A couple bits of info: When I got the supercharger, they mistakenly sent me the wrong intake setup. I didn't think it was a big deal and went forward with the install, but the order went to the tuner and it said I wanted the 90mm maf with cannister filter setup, so that was the tune they sent. When I first got the install done, I went for the test drive, and it was running fine out of boost. After driving around a bit, I dipped into the throttle and got a little boost. I had no gauges installed at the time. I pulled back into the garage and finished the AF gauge install and took it for another drive. The AF was around 16 at idle and cruise and about 14 under boost. I didn't hear any pings and it didn't have much power, probably because it pulled huge timing. I went back to the garage and contacted KB the next day. They realized the mistake and sent me the right intake. I got it installed and the AF was now correct, 14.8 at idle and cruise and about 11.3 at WOT.. The next morning was when the problems started with cold run. If it hadn't made 440 rwhp on the dyno, I would think the cats had been damaged by the super lean condition I was driving in on those first 2 test drives. However, it doesn't make sense that the cats would be clogged when cold but open up when warm, so I haven't looked further into that.

Right now, I am on a tune that KB sent that runs very rich and also has the O2 sensors on from the start.. getting feedback from the O2's helps a bit with the cold run problem, but doesn't cure it. This leads me to believe the problem is indeed mechanical in nature, not a tune issue. As stated, if I get into throttle when the engine is not warmed up, I will throw rich codes. This makes sense as I am frequently seeing LTFTs around -20 to -25%.. With that much fuel being pulled, getting into the throttle and holding just short of WOT would easily result in the conditions required for P0172 and P0175 codes.

Gas mileage, even when driving extremely conservatively, is horrible, also suggesting it is dumping too much fuel into the engine. However, as I noted before, if I lean it out even a little, it starts to show the same cold run bogging when the engine is warm. (more on that below).

The AF gauge going lean could be a result of poor fuel delivery, too much fuel, or incorrect data from the MAF sensor. I changed the MAF sensor and checked wiring and voltages a hundred times. That part all seems right, so I don't think that's the issue. I suspected fuel delivery was the issue at one point, so I got a hold of another stock GT fuel pump and replaced mine. I also replaced the fuel filter, and then went on to replace the fuel injectors. When I pulled the injectors, I did the drivers side first, and there was zero pressure. When I went to the passenger side and cut the fuel line to the rail, there was a little pressure and fuel sprayed all over. That suggested a pinch in the fuel line, so I cut out that hose and routed a new one around the front of the supercharger (instead of the back). My LTFTs before that were seperated by 8%, and afterward were seperated by about 4%, and now if I throw a rich code by going into throttle when cold, it throws a P0175 as well as the P0172.. before it only threw the P0172. So there was some improvement there. Unfortunately, none of the fuel delivery changes made a difference. Fuel rail pressure jumps on throttle and pretty much sits around 39-40 psi, going up to about 55psi when I get into boost. So while the problem might act like it is starving for fuel, there is plenty of fuel.

So I was approaching it from the perspective that too much fuel would douse the spark and all that unburnt oxygen would show up as a lean condition on the AF gauge. Unfortunately, the first thing I did when this problem started was pull the HT0's and put my factory plugs back in. Remember, this problem occurs only out of boost, so if it's a spark issue, it's not due to boost.. The car ran the same with the factory plugs as with the HT0s, so I disregarded plugs as a cause back then. At this point I am willing to try anything, so I ordered the brisks to see if they make a difference. We will see. If I hadn't read so much bad about aftermarket coils, I would buy a set and see if that helps.. I suspected a bad coil as the culprit, but most mechanics tell me a bad coil would only get worse as the engine warmed up, and it should have thrown a misfire code, which I have never seen.

A second problem cropped up through the summer: The idle got irratic when returning from a heavy load. It would drop a little and then spring back up. This got worse over time and sometimes it would stall completely. Other times it would idle perfectly. The original TB was perfectly clean and the TPS metered perfectly. Just because I have read about irratic idle problems being related to the Throttle Body, I purchased a used one from someone and put it on. The idle seems a LOT better, but has still gone goofy a couple times, not as severe as before but still down at 500ish rpm. I think this problem is not 100% related to the other problem.

Because of the rich issues, my mechanic recommended I try to lean it out a little, so I loaded the tune into my diablosport and adjusted the MAF table by -3%. Without doing WOT, I drove it for a bit. The LTFTs were substantially improved, only pulling around 3-4% fuel at the most during idle or cruise, but the engine bogged when I applied throttle, even though it was completely warmed up. This didn't last long, maybe a half second before it took off, but it was obviously not right. I restored it to the regular tune I have been running on all summer.

If you have any suggestions that I haven't already tried, please feel free to post them. There isn't much I haven't checked as far as I know, and through this process I learned more about these engines than I ever wanted to know. I don't have the option of taking it to a "good" S197 mechanic because they just don't exist around here. I would be happy to pay someone to fix the problem but it always comes down to the hourly rate.. I won't pay someone to look at all the things I looked at already and tell me something generic like "must be the tune." I am done throwing money at the problem with no resolution. I only wish there were a guarantee in the mechanic business.. Any mechanic who told me he would work on the problem and only charge me if he could fix it would be the first to get my money. Mechanics are like doctors though, they "practice" their field and charge regardless of the results. I just can't bring myself to pay for a lack of results.

Thanks

Riptide

I've been told mechanics didn't used to charge for "diagnostic" time as much as they do now and typically would only expect you to pay for parts and labor once they knew what needed to be done to actually fix the problem. Obviously times have changed.

Have you asked Bret what he thinks? Wouldn't hurt to run it by him. He's installed a few different blowers and now does his own tuning.

dkersten

He has a tune he did for another KB stage 1 and he offered to let me try it out, but the only things that changed are little tweaks to timing and AF.. Nothing there that would fix the problem. I have run a lot of the issues by him but he didn't have any ideas.

Riptide

Good luck with getting it fixed. If it ever came down to tearing it apart and giving up you might consider driving it to a pro tuner in Denver and see if they can make heads or tails out of it.

Stories like this concern me because I don't have anywhere near the knowledge necessary to troubleshoot and solve stuff like this on my own. I'm getting kinda shy about throwing money at a supercharger knowing that if problems like this come up I could easily end up screwed over.