danzcool

technically, yes, however the delivery and parasitic losses are vastly different.

• For instance, a Whippled S197 at 12psi gave me 502RWHP, where a turbo'd S197 with everything else being equal gave 580RWHP at only 11psi. So it takes less boost to create the same horsepower with a turbo than it does with a supercharger.
• The temperature rise of the compressed air determines how much timing has to be retarded to maintain a safe tune, this means loss of power. You can combat this in the form of intercoolers.
  1. water to air is more efficient, however the reservoir size determines how long until you are heat soaked, but you can add ice to get cooler than ambient intake charges.
  2. air/air is less efficient and you cannot get lower than ambient intake temps, but if you have a large intercooler, you will have predictable intake air temps as air/air is not subject to heat soak
• Power/torque curve is different where a Twin Screw or TVS will give you full torque at the push of the pedal, centrifugal and turbos build to their max power in a more linear fashion by RPM. There are ways to tweak the power delivery on centri's and turbo's so they deliver power at the throttle hit, but that is not how they work "out of the box".

The point being that boost is boost, but there are many other variables that come into play when it comes to how much power x-psi will make.
And in the end, getting blown is always lots of fun.

jz78817

then your opinion is naive and worthless. "boost" is not boost. Supercharger boost is dependent on engine RPM; and this is especially bad for centrifugal superchargers. Positive-displacement air pumps like Roots blowers are somewhat linear, but they're still dependent on how fast the engine is spinning. Turbo boost is dependent on engine load, and can kick in when you're lugging at 1800 rpm where a supercharger is doing nothing for anyone.

SCCAGT

I guess you failed to see the part after "boost is boost". While a generic phrase..."pros and cons to each method", it will ALWAYS make you smile ear to ear. Most people can only dream of owning a boosted car. So it really doesn't matter how its boosted in those cases.

Now if someone has to ask which is best without giving specific goals, then said person needs to step back and do some research. With limited knowledge, turbos probably ought to be avoided due to their complexity. The simplest install is probably a centri. A centrifugal supercharger is still linear, just like a positive displacement. No difference there.
A turbo will not be doing much good at all at 1800rpm...unless you like diesels or small turbos that run out of breath early. And I don't know anyone that would try to start a race at 1800 rpm or ask to "keep the rpms down". Thereby making any form of forced induction useless. I certainly don't granny shift my centri equipped Mustang.
So, take into consideration the question, before chastising an answer. "cheaper and better" were the words used to describe what he wants. "Cheaper" rules out turbos and twin screws. "Better" should be determined on the need the person is wanting to fulfill. I'll bet anything, his wallet will more than likely be the deciding factor. Does the person want a faster car? (In which case, boost is boost), Or does he want to be among the baddest sumbitches around? (in which case, a lot more than just boost is going to be necessary. Which means $$$$$).

This question is just like which oil to use. Not the first time its been asked, and wont be the last. All kinds of opinions with cloudy facts. A search on this site, or Google for that matter, will dump an untold amount of information into his lap if he just looks for it. I am certainly not against helping, but he asked a generic question, so I gave a generic answer.

My 500hp+ car is slow for over 500hp. But its nice and fast for me. Don't care if I cant beat a Z01. It's still fast. Kids crowd around it because its fast. Wife loves it because its fast. It will smoke the tires because its fast. The sound makes people know it's fast.
Did I mention it was fast?

Gkid182

I feel as though a supercharger is more predictable when it comes to tuning.

jz78817

no I didn't "fail to see it," it just didn't matter. because "boost" is not "boost." a turbo delivers boost in a radically different way than a Roots blower or a centrifugal supercharger. A turbo can deliver boost when you're lugging your engine along at 2000 rpm where a Roots blower might be doing something but a centrifugal supercharger will be doing nothing useful. This is why the modern crop of downsized engines are all turbocharged and not supercharged. because a turbo's output depends on engine load and is not tied to engine speed.

SCCAGT

I do fully understand how boost is achieved from the various methods. Boost is boost when it comes to the masses. The 95% of the population that does absolutely nothing to their cars wouldn't care to hear the intimate details about what makes a turbo different from a roots or to a centri. They will just roll their eyes back and fall asleep when the story gets explained to them. How the power gets made is irrelevant to them. The end result is the same. All they know is its faster than stock. And to some minds, mind-blowingly fast.
When it gets to fine tuning a car to a particular persons needs, then we can get to the nitty gritty about how each operates.

Fair enough?

Granatelli Sales

Long Answer To Your Quick Question:

The debate over Supercharging or Turbocharging goes back to the 60's (some will say even farther). Fast forward some 50 years later and the players may have changed but the battling will never stop. Let me just say I feel the passion that many of you exude in your writings but typical of many message boards there is more fighting beginning than facts. And in some cases good valid opinions are diluted by conjecture and speculation. Here is Granatelli's opinion on the subject.

Turbos, in fact, make the most horsepower per pound of boost (PSI or lbs per square inch) but that does not mean they are the best for every application. You need to consider packaging, like how it fits under the hood and what your true intensions are like street driving or racing and/or where you fall in between.

Centrifugals Superchargers make most horsepower per pound of boost (PSI or lbs per square inch) based on all the supercharger designs.

Quick Examples of Centrifugals:

Paxton, Vortech and Procharger

Quick Examples of Screw blower and other positive displacement superchargers:

Magnuson, Ford Racing, Edlebrock, Whipple, Kenne Bell, Eaton

Not going to debate the true merrits of a Screw blower vs. Twin Screw blower vs. TVS vs. Roots at this juncture other than to say they are all great blower but none can match a centrifugal pound for pound when it comes to the peak numbers.

Personally I think if you want the best all around package for an S197 then go with an 8psi Whipple or Ford Racing product. They look good when installed and are easy to maintain. A centrifugal supercharger will make more power and most likely kick your Whipple butt in a drag race but it wont have the grunt down low and when doing light throttle passing or on ramp acceleration the Whipple type will feel better. Plus the packaging of the centrifugal looks (TO ME) more cluttered. The same can be said for the turbo. The turbo kit will do to the centrifugal what the centrifugal just did to the screw type (Whipple).

The turbo on the 3v mod motor just works and feels great but it comes at the cost of a bit more money out of pocket and a few more exhaust pipes to be fiddled with. They work awesome but again they don’t package as well as a simple "middle of the engine mount" supercharger. Confused yet?

You have what seems like a million choices and only you cane decide. Our boss JR can build whatever he wants and has consulted for just about everyone (manufacturer) in the forced induction Mustang world and he will be the first to say what I just say. In fact he just said it.

So pick your poison. If you just want to get it and drive and go from 300 crank to 420 crank then try Ford Racing and be happy - especially if its an auto trans. The Ford Racing blowers feel great down low.

If you want to make a bit more power and be a bit more aggressive but still tame for the most part a centrifugal like the Paxton, Vortech or Procharger is great and it will be way faster when you are hard on the gas peddle.

The next step up would be the Turbo. Its like the best of both worlds power and torque down low and gods of power at the top. the WARNING here is that it seems like more of the Turbo kit manufactures have not thought the entire kit out so it comes at the cost of reliability a lot of times. Granatelli happens to offer a turbo kit for the S197

http://granatellimotorsports.com/pro...ystem-5-4.html


- Here is an example of a turbo kit that is still a daily driver at 9psi. By daily driver we mean EVERYDAY in traffic with the A/C of Freeze. You can park this car against a wall (nose in) and it wont over heat. But look at how crowded the front of the engine is. It only took 9psi to make 650 ft/lbs of torque. Stock Camshafts too. This is from 2006 so 9 year old technology. today you could add 50hp and 50 ft/lbs to these numbers.

A Saleen Extreme which was a 5.0 stroker at 9psi is lucky to see 490 rear wheel.

STILL THOUGH when you open the hood its hard to beat a simple center mount screw blower for ease of install and end result. you just need to decide what THE REAL END GAME IS

So what took me a page Phillip123 said in 1 sentence

As a whole most of the bigger name companies offer reliable product but what does it do to the reliability of the engine itself? Simple the turbo is the easiest on the engine. It puts the least amount of stress on the motor. However the turbo makes ton of boost down lower and that can tax the crank, rods and block more so then say a centrifugal which make very little boost down low. So now we have another problem. Do we go with the centrifugal that does not stress the engine down low but make the least amount of power down low or do we go with the turbo that makes the most power and puts the least amount of stress on the more at wide open throttle but because it makes boost so fast it can stress the rotating assembly if you get too aggressive. Sure they have boost controllers to fix that but again lets all be honest. No one can control 90% of the guys on this board. They are power mongers and once you get the taste of the good stuff its hard to cut back. Its always More More More. then you find yourself justifying why you turned it up just 1/4 pound of boost and then another 1//4 and so on until your driving around town with 12psi on your stock motor and BANG!!!!!

So the centrifugal guys here will be quick to jump in and say you can run more boost (peak boost) with a centrifugal then a positive displacement or turbo on a stock block.

1. that is not true and 2 the reason they think they can do it is simple…with a 12 psi pulley on your centrifugal blower set to shift at 6500, you only see 12 psi at 6500. At 6000 its probably at 10 and at 5500 its most likely at 8. So you only see the high boost for a very short period of time. as where the turbo when set at 12 will make 12 from 2500 to 6500 and a positive displacement blower will make 12 from 2000 to 6000. So when you look at average boost across a dyno pull the centrifugal is not in the same league.

But Granatelli you keep saying the centrifugal is better in a drag race, How can that be when it make less average boost? - I am sure that is what the next question will be so let me address that now.

The centrifugal will beat the whipple type in a drag race because it take way less power to drive it and in a drag race you don’t race from idle to wide open. You dump the clutch at 50% of more throttle and as soon as you hit peak shift RPM, you shift and only drop perhaps 1000 rpm and at that point you are in the sweat spot for the whole race. The turbo (again) will do to the centrifugal what the centrifugal does to the whipple. The Turbo is an exhaust driver centrifugal so it acts the same but take even less power to make it work. Therefore it gets more power to the ground - PERIOD

WHAT NEXT?

Less go back to paragraph 1 and 2 -ish if you just want to have a little fun and pick up a simple 100 hp with easy packaging then yes the Whipple type is still our pick. But don’t expect to win a lot of drag races unless you are pulling a trailer and lugging the engine down to 1500 rpm. That is where the screw blower shine. for the tow truck where you live in the lower RPM range.

And again Danzcool summed it up in 1 sentence as well

Like I said…be happy with 430 rwhp. These cars make like 260 stock at the rear wheels on a good day. BTW 12.23 @ 114 in the 1/4 mile is 404 rwhp at 3500lbs and 462 rwhp at 4000lbs. so what does 808muscles car weigh?

Also something to consider. great points made. Today though a good single ball bearing 76mm turbo will do everything you could ask for. Great bottom end and enough grunt to support 800 crank. Its just comes back to packaging.

"Boost" is only "Boost" if your stuck at a specific RPM. its all about how you get there and how fast you get there. You chose Procharger because they are 15 minutes away and they gave you a great price. Also great things to factor. We Install a lot of Turbo kits because we have a loyal client base and they rely on us to do ALL THE WORK. We get a fair share of Paxton and Vortech Business because our boss (J.R. Granatelli) owned Paxton and is still considered to be "THE GUY" in the centrifugal world. It like you can change the players but not the concept. Granatelli for all intents and purposes is the conceptualizer of Mustang centrifugal supercharging. However while owner of Paxton he still managed to build himself a 261 mph twin turbo Camaro that was making a merely 900hp in 1982. Had the Novi 2000 been invented, it would have been the better choice for marketing reasons but the turbos were still more powerful and able to make more power per psi

DANZCOOLs numbers basically match that of the Granatelli video - so 2 ends of the US producing roughly the same result. That proves the point clearly. Turbos however will match a whipple and pull away even on the dyno after 3000 rpm. The only place the Whipple type shines is at or below 2800.

Remember when Procharger came out with a kit to replace the blower 112 and 122 on the 03/04 Cobra? Removing the factory center mount blower and installing a Procharger at the drag strip produced time slips that made the stock Cobra guys jealous. Right up until the drove home and the Procharger cars SUCKED by comparison. They could not hold a candle to the stock car when both guys drag raced on the hwy from say 2500 to redline in 4th, 5th or 6th. Even if they down shifted to bring up RPM the stock positive displacement car would lunge forward and they get swallowed up buy the Procharger car. So what did we learn from that exercise? If you want a drag car install the Procharger but if you want a great all around car then leave it along and change the stock blowers pulley to step it up at notch.

Hellion offered a turbo kit for the 03/04 cobra and it had the same results. Great numbers at the strip and it SUCKED on the street. What was the fix. Just turbo it too stock blower and get the best of both worlds. - Well not really because anyone that had the turbo going through the stock blowers know the stock blower just gets into eh way and hinders the turbos true potential plus it heated the whole hell out of the air. Fun to look at though

When JR owned Paxton the build Centrifugal blower Diesel Ford trucks. The stock turbo would give up and the Paxton Novi 2000 would just keep going. it was a great marriage for a while. Then they put a Novi-2000 on the lightning and blew through that and it was awesome but the stock blower just got in the way. So well before Hellion laid claim to doing this Paxton did it in 1995 and again in 1999. Both times it looked cool but it would have been better to just pick one

Here is a true example of over kill on an LS but still street tame at idle


This is a Granatelli twin turbo kit pushing through a Magnusson TVS 2300

It actually made more power with the Maggie removed (1289 hp w/ 1209 ft/lbs) but no where near the torque below 3000.

That’s code for easier to tune. And you are right. However any good tuner that takes his time should be able to tune for a turbo and the end power result is huge!!

True for the most part but not quite.

Today's modern engines are back on turbos because they package so well. Plus smaller engines don’t have the ***** to spin the blowers like a cobra or GT500 did. 6 cylinder motors for the most part don’t have enough torque to make up for the power it robs to drive the TVS style blowers. As for the Centrifugals they take almost no power to driver then so as you say at 2000 rpm they getting a free ride but not costing you anything either. But alas the centrifugal IS RPM DEPENDANT and therefore sucks on the smaller engine down low. The reason the factories are using turbos is so they can run the smaller engines to get the mileage when out of boost and the V8 like power when in boost. THAT IS EXACTLY WHY we most likely will never see an "Eco-Boost" V8. Does not fit the template. Also think GM the V8 beast cars are supercharged and the V6 mileage / performance car have turbos ATS-V vs. CTS-v is a great example.

IMO no need to defend yourself when being attacked but the reason for the detail is simple - that is exactly what the first question was about the benefits of all forced induction


Why Granatelli?

Granatelli Motor Sports, Inc. was founded in 1989 by the charismatic and always outgoing J.R. Granatelli. J.R. owned and operated his own Indycar racing team in the late 80's and early 90's, before turning his attention to developing Modular Ford Racing engines in concert with then SVO and FRT. He is also the son of the legendary Joe Granatelli, Sr. (chief mechanic of the Granatelli STP Indy racing team for 40 + years and CEO of Paxton Products, Inc. AKA Paxton Superchargers before his death). J.R. cut his teeth working for his family in both their Indy car program and Paxton Products. Upon earning is B.S. in Mechanical Engineering it was not long before he took over as Vice President of Paxton Superchargers and head of the design department. There he created the Novi-2000 supercharger, the first and only centrifugal supercharger capable of producing 1000hp and meeting the tuff California (CARB) emissions standards.

Granatelli Motor Sports started by optimizing the performance of the then hottest muscle cars including Camaros, Corvettes, Firebirds and Mustangs. Testing and tuning dozens of combinations yielded performance found by no other performance tuners in the industry. In fact, in 1991, Granatelli Motor Sports built one of the fastest “street” Corvettes by going 217MPH in street legal trim and a supercharged Mustang that won the Fastest Ford Shootout competition. By 1993, Granatelli Motor Sports was absorbed by Paxton Products, Inc. of Camarillo, CA. You may remember that Paxton was owned by the racing Granatelli’s and made the famous Paxton supercharger a household word among hot rodders.

During this time, the Granatelli Motor Sports division focused on performance accessories and limited edition tuner cars using the 4th generation Chevrolet Camaro platform. Granatelli Motor Sports was the first aftermarket tuner to produce a limited run of 150 Granatelli Signature Series Camaros. The initial vehicle, featured on the cover of the December 1994 issue of Motor Trend, won the Motor Trend Tuner Car Shootout. Among the field were notable tuners like Lingenfelter Performance Engineering, Hennessy and Doug Rippie Motor Sports. Thanks to the tremendous distribution network available at its disposal, Granatelli Signature Series performance accessories became popular with many speed shops and most automotive performance mail order retailers like Summit Racing and Jeg’s.

By 1995, J.R. Granatelli was President of Paxton Products Automotive Division growing sales exponentially. One of the ways he did that was by creating Paxton Products Fuel Systems. Many of you now know this Company as Aeromotive Fuel Systems. Yep another company created by J.R. Granatelli. In 1997 he decided to purchase all remaining shares Paxton in an effort to expand it even greater and in 1998 he brought back the Granatelli Motor Sports name full time.

At this time, Granatelli Motor Sports began development of high performance 50-state legal aftermarket replacement mass airflow sensors for GM and Ford late model cars, trucks and SUVs. Within a year of painstaking research and development on a proprietary mass airflow sensor dyno, Granatelli Motor Sports had accomplished this tremendous feat. With awareness and distribution getting stronger, it was a natural progression for Granatelli to develop chassis and suspension components for Ford Fox bodied vehicles like the Mustang. During this time, several project vehicles were built and promoted for Summit Racing equipment including a one thousand horsepower Mustang nice named Pro Millennium. This earn J.R. his 2nd Ford Image Vehicle of the Year Award.

http://images.mustang50magazine.com/...enger_Side.jpg

During 2000 and 2001, J.R. Granatelli made the decision to develop performance parts for the Modular Ford engines. This was a major challenge since no one, up to that point in time, had attempted serious cylinder head, camshaft and racing durability development. To meet this challenge head on, J.R. embarked on a full-on racing program utilizing the Modular Ford engine platform. Hundreds of hours of engine dyno and racing tests were performed. The result was the world’s fastest modular powered Mustang, and records that stood for nearly 8 years before they were broken. The technology gathered enabled racer’s and performance enthusiasts everywhere to choose the modular Ford engine platform as a viable alternative to the ever popular 5.0L Ford engine. Shortly thereafter, Granatelli Motor Sports published a 320 page bible on centrifugal superchargers, “The Complete Guide To Centrifugal Supercharge Impeller Speed.”

Granatelli Innovations:

Engine:
Paxton SN series supercharger
Novi Indy turbine engine
Paxton Novi 2000 gear driven supercharger
Popularized STP engine oil treatments
GMS 4th Gen Camaro Torque Arm, 200 MPH speedometer, silicone radiator hoses
GMS 50-state legal high performance replacement mass airflow sensors
GMS 0hm resistance stainless steel core spark plug wires, coil on plug connectors and coil near plug connectors
GMS calibrated MAF & cold air intake for S-197 V-8 Mustang (no computer programming required)
GMS DiabloSport flash tuner (world’s fastest tuner with most memory and features available) Now sold to Holley Performance

Racing:

Indy 500 winner (1969, 1972, 1978, 1982)
300+ world land speed records at Bonneville Salt Flats
Pioneered 3.8L Buick turbo development at the Indy 500
World’s fastest modular engine Mustang (2001) 101mm Singe Turbo
World’s most powerful street legal Camaro (1982) A true 50 state legal car that drove from Los Angles to the Bonneville Salt Flats, ran 261 MPH with A/C and a cell phone in place (remember in '82 phones were hard mounted in the car) and cruised it back home. The Sister Engine in a 1983 four-door Caprice Classic ran 207 setting the record for fastest sedan in street trim previously held by the AMG Sledgehammer.
World’s most powerful street legal Corvette (2006)
World’s first Pratt & Whitney powered gas turbine Corvette (1980)

Industry:

Pioneered performance mail order speed shop (GranCor)
Pioneered jobber and warehouse distribution in mail order speed business (GranCor)
Pioneered chain store lube and tune up shops (Tune-Up Masters)

SCCAGT

Thank you
I copied this and saved for future use.

FivePointToTheOh

For the love of god, whoever wrote this dissertation, you sir deserve a beer and a cookie.

jRaskell

And for quoting the entire thing, you deserve a light smack upside the head.