Why hold back so much power?
 

Was just looking at some reports from the Chicago show, particularly watching the 2007 Toyota Tundra info and it just kills me. $30k for a car, such as the Mustang. We get a 280+/- HP engine. I know what the brochure says, but HP that I never see (i.e. not at the wheels) doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned. Buy a Toyota pickup, and get a 5.7L low-emissions V8 throwing over 330HP and 375ft-lb of torque. Now, I don't expect Ford to build something along the lines of the last generation RX-7, it's not their style. But big V8's should be, no?

Dunno, was just thinking. This is the only thing holding me back from buying a new GT. I was inlove with the styling as soon as it was introduced. Ford finally got the Mustang right again! Not trying to start a fight by any means, but doesn't Ford realize this makes people really consider all the options instead of rushing out to buy one? There will always be the faithful core of buyers - but it's largely made up of people who would buy it if it only came in V6. (Nothing wrong with that, I'd still be somewhat tempted!)

Not planning on setting fire to For HQ or anything, just thinking out loud I suppose.:D

RE: Why hold back so much power?
 

The Toyota 5.7L 330 HP engine is spec'd just like the Ford 4.6L 300 HP engine--at the crank. Parasitic loss will be more on the Toyota, given the longer wheelbase and heavier weight. In the end, the Mustang will still out 0-60 the Toyota, although it won't carry nearly as much.

RE: Why hold back so much power?
 

Oh sure, the truck will bleed more (forgive the lack of in-depth research, wasn't really trying to make a hard numbers point) I would assume (as well as haul a bit more, as you said;)) It's just that I know there are folks at Ford smart enough to make a car that couldn't be passed up by anyone looking at the market - and one that would probably widen the market exponentially. Why not a 5.4L? Why not a really solid suspension package. If retail on Steeda springs and Bilstein shocks and struts is well under $1000, what could Ford get them for through their channels (I'd say at probably a good discount for thousands of sets - helluva group buy!) and have a car sitting on the lot that is a true all-around performer? For instance - the Mazdaspeed 6 sport sedan. A reliable car with a turbocharged 4 cylinder that rates WAY TOO close to the Mustang GT in terms of power, has all of that suspension tuning, and AWD, and looks pretty darn sharp too. For <$30k. Same market? Not exclusively. But you make a Mustang with bigger power and good suspension and you can bet you'll get some crossover.

Or I'm full of sh!t.:D

RE: Why hold back so much power?
 

I guess it depends if you want a fast, light car or a heavy truck that can pull a lot of weight. The power/weight ratio is what makes it fast which is why a relatively small motorcycle motor can blow all the cars on the road.

RE: Why hold back so much power?
 

+1

RE: Why hold back so much power?
 

Are we really compairing the GT to a truck? [&:]

RE: Why hold back so much power?
 

I have no idea.[&:] To reiterate the point to start with - forget Toyota or Tundra or truck. Think 5.7L V8 with more HP and closely matched torque.


In unrelated events - that manifold cover in your sig is sweeeeeet

RE: Why hold back so much power?
 

This is kind of a silly topic ghost63, My sister has a '04 Armada with 305hp but you can't compare the two, i'll smoke her any day of the week. If your concerned about your investment think of this, Ford put out a 300hp bomb shell for $25K that no one was able to touch! Now the players have come to the table with the GTO, Charger and new Camaro to come shortly with optional 400+hp. This was bound to happen along with your Toyotas, Nissans and Hondas to follow no matter what size engine you put in, 5.7 or not...
So here's what you do, buy a supercharger, get your 450 to 500hp to the wheels and pull up to any of the above cars with a smile on your face.:D
That's what I did and the only guys that are really fun to mess with are your Z06 and Viper owners and even when you lose you do it with a smile knowing your not into a $65 thousand or $84 thousand dollar note.:D

Mauiboy

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RE: Why hold back so much power?
 

Oh boy. If I'd have said F-150 would that have been better.:D Fellas - I wasn't making any comparison in vehicles whatsoever. The topic was just kind of wondering why manufacturers (Ford included) can produce engines like they do - yet won't put them into their top of the line (as far as mortals are concerned - no Ford GT allowed here) sports car? Hey, I'm a Ford guy - always have been. I love the Mustang - I think Ford was thiiiiiiis close to getting it perfect. (Though everyone keeps throwing $25k around as a price, which I have yet to see. Maybe there's an interior delete option?[sm=icon_stickpoke.gif])

I guess the real topic is - why not a bigger motor for the money? As far as a point, don't really have one. Just bored and was thinking aloud.:D

RE: Why hold back so much power?
 

Not so sure your comparing of the MS6 was a good choice. They seem to be having an epidemic of problematic power loss: http://forum.mazda6club.com/index.php?showtopic=46807
I came from an 05 Subaru WRX STi. 300hp-300tq. Got tired of it. I live in South Florida, so AWD is not that big of a deal to me. Sure it was a rocket off the line, but I only worked the balls up about 4 times to launch it at the required 5000 rpm clutch drop. I always thought I would break something doing that. Could Ford put more power to the Mustang? Sure, just look at what hand held tuners are able to do, let alone the resources of all of Ford. Maybe they dont want to show there full potential yet. Maybr when the Challenger or the Camaro hits the floor they will up it to350 or 400 hp. Really, wheres the driving competition? No more Trans-Am, no Z-28. We got the Charger, but really, its a 4 door family car with a great engine, saddled with a high curb weight and an auto only tranny.
Its hard to compare apples to apples when Ford owns the whole orchard.

RE: Why hold back so much power?
 

If you want more, then you should have bought an '03 Cobra or held out for the new GT500. If you want to compair trucks, then you need to look at the second generation Lightnings or Ram SRT-10's. The point is, it's all about marketing. You can not offer just one modle to be the best there is period. Some people dont want all out performance, some people dont want high insurance rates, some people would like to get a good gas mileage all the while they drive a car they would like to have. Not all of the classic muscle cars built with high output big blocks; infact most of those are considerably rarer than the other normal production cars. The roots of our beloved Mustangs started with a fairly weak in-line six! It wasn't untill '66 when Ford even offered a v8 option.

RE: Why hold back so much power?
 

So you're upset your 65.2hp/L motor isn't a 57.9hp/L motor? :eek: Completely ignoring the fact that this is the most efficient, highest rated stock V8 in the history of the horse. Efficiency that is only surpassed by the Z-series Corvettes in the realm of the V8. It even surpasses most run of the mill smaller displacement I4s and V6s.

The Honda S2000 gets 107.7hp/L... so you're right, Ford kinda screwed up, but your logic is backwards.

Just be glad it isn't a 3400cc Pontiac V6 that makes 48.5hp/L.

So, while there is no replacement for displacement, there is no veneering engineering. I'm glad Americans finally are catching up with the rest of the world. And that's why this is the first American car I've ever owned, or even seriously contemplated buying.

RE: Why hold back so much power?
 

Well in my humble opinion I believe with more power comes more money to handle it. I don't believe it would cost that much more in dollar figures to jump from 3, 4, to even 500 hp engines but look at the Vette or even the SC Saleen, your talking $58k and $65k[:o] but you pay for that suspension and handling.
For the general public I think they did a great job with the GT but for the bigger engines there still in it for the money...

p.s I believe the base model "no frills" was $24,995:eek:

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RE: Why hold back so much power?
 

The 4.6 motor in these cars is plenty powerful for the money. Just take a 05/06 GT for a test drive and I think you'll agree. As was mentioned, there really isn't much competition for the mustang yet. Sure there are more powerful cars out there, better handling cars, etc..but none that are in the mustangs price range. By 2009, we are looking the possibilty of a 400+ horsepower camaro and the return of the challenger, so, Im sure down the road the 5.4 or some other motor will be used..maybe even supercharge the 4.6 like they did the 03/04 cobras who knows :)

RE: Why hold back so much power?
 

Steve's GT - yup. My point was more of a theory thing with the M6, but you're absolutely right. Then again, theory kind of goes out the window when it doesn't work. Best point you made - Ford does indeed own the whole orchard right now! If they're holding a reserve to avoid an all out remake to respond to the Camaro or whatever Dodge might come up with, good on 'em. I hope it happens, I think it would benefit us all. FWIW, I live in Florida too so AWD isn't a major player yet, but I won't be living here forever. ;)



7302 - I only really disagree with one part, and that's about the market. I think people who buy the Mustang GT put much priority on insurance, nor do they put all out performance very far from the top. But I'm not saying what should or shouldn't be done - just wondering what you guys thought and was interested in the discussion. I know the ins-and-outs of motorcycles better than cars, but I think the car industry as a whole is fascinating! All in all, Ford has to be doing something right. They've hit a grand slam, overall, with this generation Mustang!

RE: Why hold back so much power?
 

I think in the future Ford needs a third tier production mustang. The cobras come and go, but we need something in between the GT and Cobra that sees production every year. I say put in a modified version of the aluminum 5.4 block in the GT and leave it NA........should be in the 400 to 410hp range. Or build a next gen 302 (or 304) making similar power. If they wanna play it el-cheapo..then go ahead and give us an uncharged version of the GT500 5.4......again, making somewhere in the 400hp range. This third tier mustang may need a new badge.....as "Boss" and "Mach 1" are considered specialty stangs. Call it the Mustang FR (throwing one out of my head), price it around 30K or so, and watch the public gobble it up. There's a whole slew of stang customers out there, myself included, that would be glad to pay extra $$$ to have a 400HP NA engine mustang that is a step beyond the GT. And if the Camaro does indeed rise from the ashes in 08 or 09 or whatever, Ford will need something comparable to keep up with it.........as I'd be willing to bet GM will make SURE its new Camaro variations roll out the door with more HP than their mustang counterparts (well, except maybe for the GT500. I don't see GM pushing an SS version to the 500hp mark).
I for one was disappointed not to see the Mach 1 name emerge again with the new mustang bodies......I would have gotten that over a GT any day of the week. But, doesn't look like we'll see any affordable performance in the mustangs outside of the GT for the next 3 or 4 years......but at least we do have the largest aftermarket of any car in production[sm=happy046.gif]. Guess we'll have to keep our fingers crossed.

RE: Why hold back so much power?
 

for me, its simple... gas prices.. mpg.. engine wear/life we as consumers should be allowed to have the option and if we wanna go bigger we can thru aftermarket... besides... its in the after market we can customize to make our own original machine...

ive got the v6 stang which (by your standards) is like 8hp to the rear wheeL afterall is said and done... but i like thelook of the car... andi know people still look at it anyway... now ifi wanted a faster ride id spend the bucks... but at the prices when i wanted my car.... if the GT ws the only one that was available i probably would have to buy something else... yeah i know its only 5k but thats another year in payments and thats also no fuzzy dice or Calvins peeing on bowties...

I think they want the cars to be accessible to every type of driver... thats why the shelby is coming out 2 years later... cause its not for everyone. I think its good marketing to control that sorta thing.

RE: Why hold back so much power?
 

That would not be the first time Mazada screwed up...they had to buy back some RX-8s and/or refund $$ because the cars had less hp than first advertised...

I to had a WRX and it was great...BTW to launch, you had to constantly feather the throttle up and down and then ride the clutch like you were trying to lauch a motorcycle and hope you didn't get it to hot for an awesome spleen splitting take off...

RE: Why hold back so much power?
 

I'm not so sure ford isn't sandbagging the current 4.6L engine a little bit in order to be able to bump it up to say 315 -320hp to keep the demand up within the next two model years, when competition heats up.

RE: Why hold back so much power?
 

I think that ford needs to offer more engine options for this car, just like the days that this car is based on. Maybe a 4.6 for the base GT. but for $5K more, you could get the unsupercharged 5.4 w/ about 400hp. Then the top of the line would be the cobra, at a $45K price tag base, with the supercharger and 485 hp(and better suspension). Could maybe even offer a blown V6 at the $23K mark at about 260hp just to give more options.
I would definately have paid about $31K for a GT with close to vette hp nubers, maybe $36K for the vert.

Just a thought.

RE: Why hold back so much power?
 

Yea, I guess my point is that those who wanted that extra power model or option should have been given it. The GT could remain the entry level performance model for those who wanna mod it themselves, or for those who wanna keep their performance affordable. But for those who wanted something with a powerplant that is a step up from the GT....there should be a mustang option from the factory to accomodate.

RE: Why hold back so much power?
 

If Ford were to offer a N/A 5.4 in the S197, dont expect it to be near 400HP. Considering the GT500 is useing a detuned S/C DOHC 5.4L to the tune of 425, they would not want it so close to the next gen Cobra. If, at all, the 5.4L 3v should be expected to make 340-350HP with 400-420LbsTQ. I would not expect more much than that for a production unit becuase you also have to think of predisessing 2000 Cobra R w/ a N/A 5.4L DOHC @ 385HP. But, certainly the added full range of torque would be the biggest factor of increase in performance. Weight, fuel, distribution, tranny, amongst odds and ends would have to be addressed in such a case. Then you have to decide if the added weight will off set the performance increase to make a value of performance per dollar.

RE: Why hold back so much power?
 

OK I think if you read through this forum you will see that you came to the wrong place to talk about this mess. Everyone here compared this car to the market and we all came to the same conclusion. Price + Power + Style = Decision. There is no other car on the market that can give you 300hp for this price and look good doing it.
For the record I paid 26k for mine fully loaded so this whole 30k that I hear people reference is just nonsense unless they bought the GT convertible. Thats the only way it breaks the 30k threshhold, or they paid more than msrp because they had to have one so bad that the dealer hijacked them in 05.

If you want a 5.4liter engine it is going to cost money. ala GT 500 originally targeted price was 35k Ford worked hard to be able to do that and they missed it by a mile. Upgraded suspension, breaks and motor =$$$ That wit real world US economics you can't sell 160-200 thousand of those cars a year.
I guarantee you that the if the Camaro and the Challenger are produced that they will either have a smaller engine than the concept car or they will be 35-40k. The reality of the current US market dictates what the masses get.
But if you can name me one new car that you can buy that is less than 30k + has 300hp or more + has style that can sell over 150 thousand units a year. I will give you a hundred dollars.

And that is why the Mustang has a 4.6

p.s add a blower for 5k and you can run with any car on the face of the planet for less than 35k
BOOYAH TOOKIE!!!

Power related to ccost of ownership
 

There a few more things related to corporate american BS side or holding back HP. I changed the topic on the thread.
1) Ford knows that a huge demographic in the market look at total cost of ownership prior to buying cars. They've been doing this since the 60's when they would rate a 428CJ at 330 hp or a Boss 302 at 290 hp when these cars actually produced a lot more. What it did was reduce your insurance premiums hence the TCO was lower and people would buy more cars. Similar concept here. They can't lie about the rated HP because insurance companies caught on. However, since only like 10% of the market are actually looking for that kind of snot under the hood (400 hp+), why mass produce a car that costs so much to own that less people will buy it. Do you think it is a mystery that they made a highly efficient, easily modifiable car that you can turn into a mean mo-fo (with 500hp) for less than $10k? They know that all the gear heads like us are going to spend the $10k anyway and if your VIN number says the car is a stock GT (not Roush or Saleen, etc.) your insurance premiums are much lower in most cases. Once your HP is in the danger zone, it doesn't matter what age you are, driving record, etc. the insurance will be high if the ride has 500 hp. If grandma accidentaly lets the clutch out to fast and drives the care right through the front door of 7-eleven because the car was overpowered, everybody loses.

2) Ever notice that the past few years the only changes from the LX/V6 to the GT are the engines (maybe the tranny) and a bunch of cosmetic stuff. In the 05/06 the v6 is an iron block and the GT is an aluminum block and most of the weight chareteristics of the GT and V6 are identical and no suspension modifications. This makes it a much simpler, cheaper manufacturing process to make two different versions. If the V6 has less power and if the GT had 50-100 more HP Ford would have to spend a lot more money customizing the rest of the car to meet the drivetrain charecteristics. This is simply one of the ford ways of improving the bottom line. Remember when the GT had the V-8 and the LX had the 4 cylinder? Ford was essentially building 2 different cars. In my opinion if an new owner is going to pull the motor on an 05-06 and really make some significan internal changes, as well as the body stuff, you might as well start with a V6 version and save yourself $5k on the initial purchase in addition to saving a lot of dough on insurance.

RE: Power related to ccost of ownership
 

I think ford came up with a good power to economy ratio. The mustang is fast, not lamborgini fast, but fast enough for most and the fuel economy is vantastic given the performance and the fact it is a V8. It will get on the highway as good as 27mpg. I also have a 1999 Chevy Blazer V6 4.3L H.O. engine, it's pretty fast for a SUV but at best it will get maybe 20mpg on the highway. I can always modiefy it or drop a 5.4L Cobra engine in it someday if I want. The price isn't bad for all that either.

I believe that this big horse power tread isn't going to last long. Higher gas prices will have it's effect in the long term as well as higher insurance rates. Insurance Companies will look for any reason to jack up rates.

Oh whats that you have a 450hp 2007 Challenger that cost about 35-37K. Well lets just add this up. You will be paying almost as much a month for insurance as you would be paying for financing.

RE: Power related to ccost of ownership
 

So, the consensus here is that Ford shouldn't bother making the GT500 at all......since it won't be a mass market product and has more HP than most ppl know what to do with........correct? :eek:
I agree that the new mustang GT is hands down the best bang for the buck car on the road today. I'm not saying it needs more power or needs to be tinkered with. I just think it would be nice to have a mustang a step above the GT in the low 30's price range..........since the new cobra (or GT500) is now officially out of the everyday man's price range. Sure, I can spend a few thousand upgrading my GT to 400 horses (and I will). But had I had the option to pick it up from the factory with a nice NA motor making that much from the getgo....I would have put down the extra few thousand, and I suspect many others would have too. I see nothing wrong with having different mustang models to chose from. Mach 1's, Boss's, Saleen's, Roush's, GT500's......variety is the spice of life, i say. And remember that not everyone shopping for a new mustang is on as limited a budget as some of us folk.:( Look at the ppl plopping down 45K+ for Roush's and Saleen's right now. You can't tell me there wouldn't be a market for a low 30's 400HP NA mustang option.

P.S. Insurance isn't a good excuse to limit big hp mustang models either. My insurance misunderstood me when I called for a quote on my 05, and turns out it would only cost me 200 a month to insure a brand spankin new Ford GT:D So don't tell me I can't insure a 400hp mustang for a reasonable premium.

RE: Power related to ccost of ownership
 

You don't buy a Rolex because you have to, you buy it because you can and you want to. A rolex won't technically do anything different than a casio. But it's build better, had more style, and lasts longer. Still, it tells time like a casio. These are the type of people that the GT500 is being built for. Not the average JOE, but for the elitist with a flaire for performance. Some well to do like a mercedes c320 or a nice clk, and to each his own, but does a mercedes or a cobra actually perform any different function than a toyota camry. NO. They both get you from point A to poin B. It becomes a matter of taste and fincances. It's not so much the power, everyone here is correct, because any one can get a GT, sink 10K into it, and beat the new cobra at it's own game. That's not the point. it's a status symbol, a personal flavor, and the ability to stand out in the crowd that make the cobra appealing.

RE: Why hold back so much power?
 

So, compare just the engines when you can't buy the 5.7liter Toyota in anything but their truck?? The LS1 puts out more power, the LS2 puts out more power then the 4.6liter Mustang and so do a host of other engines. People don't buy the Mustang just for the 300hp "number" they buy it because it's nearly if not the fastest Mustang GT ever built, it can go from 300 crank hp to 345 crank hp with a CAI and tune which will out-do the Toyota if you're just looking at engines (God I hate doing the "if you add this it will do this but what the heck, why not...).

The Mustang is so much more than the engine residing in the engine bay, it's rich in history, it's 100,000 times more cool than ANY Toyota and it draws a crowd every where it goes. I've never seen anybody go up to a guy in a Tundra to see what it's got, why because nobody cares.

There is a reason why GM doesn't build the F-Body anymore, the Mustang killed it, with less performance to boot. This isn't meant to be a slam against the F-Body, they were and are damn fine cars, but the Mustang out-sold them by huge numbers.

I digress, don't buy the Mustang for the number, buy it because it's a damn fine car and a site cooler than most cars out there. If you want the most HP and Torque so you can play the bragging game, don't buy the Mustang.