Dealer Beware (Long but need to get the word out)
02-17-2006, 10:31 PM
#11
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location:
Posts: 737
RE: Dealer Beware (Long but need to get the word out)
ORIGINAL: BlackB-U-TEE_06
huh? did this ^ make sense to anyone else?
sorry dude, but from what i understand of the story, it sounds like the story the dealership gave from the start is a flat out lie. when you asked how the accident had happened, the dealership's first response was "well we dont really know". that's a HUGE BS answer if you ask me. if I were the service manager, i would make it my job to know EVERY last detail of a major accident like this so i could cover my ***. when the dealership told you that the guy who caused the accident was reluctant to own up to it at first, that's another huge red flag in my mind. and based on the BS auto start in gear story that they gave you....it honestly sounds like something else was going on here (joy riding perhaps? drinking on the job? something). and the fact that one of the other managers basically told you to go F yourself, because it's not his problem? HUGE red flag. what he did, was turn on you, to try to make YOU the bad guy, hoping that this would make you "realize" that your aftermarket non-ford part was the cause of the damage, and not an irresponsible grease monkey.
whatever you end up doing - persue it all the way. from what i understand, it sounds like the story they gave you is mechanically impossible. either the dealership is lying to you or....well....they're lying to you....i don't see it any other way. (and it wouldn't be the first tim a dealership lied to someone) good luck man.
ORIGINAL: ford4v429
uninvolved third party view here...just another opinion...
first off very sad to hear of the incident.
I dont know, but I *think* if your car can be remote started(even attempting to crank) while in gear, that had it ran into a bunch of new cars instead of a curb, your installer would be on the hook for a huge lawsuit...I dont pretend to know legalities, but it just sounds way,way wrong to me to be able to remote start a stick without a neutral switch, if at all.
perhaps thought of just such an incident were going thru dealer guys mind, putting him in instant a**hole mode...what if it had ran over a customer???
I do think your installer ought to be getting as big of a black eye as anyone here- counting on a parking brake to stall the engine wont fly...in a parking lot it would still lurch into car/curb/bus full of nuns or whatever in front of it, or if brake held it back hard enough and it tried to crank, would likely explode battery or start a underhood fire. 'locking' a starter would be same as shorting out the cables...I'd be highly pissed at your installer, as had someone gotten hurt, bith you and he coulda lost everything in court- I would guess a lawyer would have a field day with every insurance company they could chase...
Id be glad it wasnt worse, and seriously think about any repercussions going back to installing company- they are to blame 100% in my mind.
uninvolved third party view here...just another opinion...
first off very sad to hear of the incident.
I dont know, but I *think* if your car can be remote started(even attempting to crank) while in gear, that had it ran into a bunch of new cars instead of a curb, your installer would be on the hook for a huge lawsuit...I dont pretend to know legalities, but it just sounds way,way wrong to me to be able to remote start a stick without a neutral switch, if at all.
perhaps thought of just such an incident were going thru dealer guys mind, putting him in instant a**hole mode...what if it had ran over a customer???
I do think your installer ought to be getting as big of a black eye as anyone here- counting on a parking brake to stall the engine wont fly...in a parking lot it would still lurch into car/curb/bus full of nuns or whatever in front of it, or if brake held it back hard enough and it tried to crank, would likely explode battery or start a underhood fire. 'locking' a starter would be same as shorting out the cables...I'd be highly pissed at your installer, as had someone gotten hurt, bith you and he coulda lost everything in court- I would guess a lawyer would have a field day with every insurance company they could chase...
Id be glad it wasnt worse, and seriously think about any repercussions going back to installing company- they are to blame 100% in my mind.
sorry dude, but from what i understand of the story, it sounds like the story the dealership gave from the start is a flat out lie. when you asked how the accident had happened, the dealership's first response was "well we dont really know". that's a HUGE BS answer if you ask me. if I were the service manager, i would make it my job to know EVERY last detail of a major accident like this so i could cover my ***. when the dealership told you that the guy who caused the accident was reluctant to own up to it at first, that's another huge red flag in my mind. and based on the BS auto start in gear story that they gave you....it honestly sounds like something else was going on here (joy riding perhaps? drinking on the job? something). and the fact that one of the other managers basically told you to go F yourself, because it's not his problem? HUGE red flag. what he did, was turn on you, to try to make YOU the bad guy, hoping that this would make you "realize" that your aftermarket non-ford part was the cause of the damage, and not an irresponsible grease monkey.
whatever you end up doing - persue it all the way. from what i understand, it sounds like the story they gave you is mechanically impossible. either the dealership is lying to you or....well....they're lying to you....i don't see it any other way. (and it wouldn't be the first tim a dealership lied to someone) good luck man.
heres a pasting on a remote designed for safe operation of a stick:
courtesy of autoalarmpro.com site
<<To ensure a safe start with a remote starter on a vehicle with a manual transmission, a set-up procedure, commonly called the Remote Start Ready Mode, must be followed before you exit the vehicle.
This procedure is commonly called the "REMOTE START READY MODE". The routine to enable, or set, the remote starter is done when parking the vehicle. While the vehicle is still running, you set the emergency brake and place the vehicle in neutral. Then, while the vehicle is still running, you press a button on the remote which will cause the systems status LED to flash along with the parking lights. You then remove the keys from the ignition and will notice that the engine will stay running. Within 15 seconds, you exit the vehicle and after closing the door, again pressing a button on the remote the engine will shut down. Your vehicle can now be remote started safely. If this procedure is not followed exactly everytime before you try to attempt to remote start your vehicle, the remote start feature of the system will not operate.>>
sounds like a decent system- maybe I'll get one
02-21-2006, 04:21 PM
#12
1st Gear Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location:
Posts: 115
RE: Dealer Beware (Long but need to get the word out)
It sounds like the remote start system that was installed on this car was not meant for manual transmissions. Mine is an UltraStart (www.ultrastarters.com) and it requires a similar shut-down procedure to what ford4v429 mentioned. If you don't shut the car down this way, there is no way to start the car with the remote.
I definitely agree that the dealer should fix the car since it sounds like the car wash person went to extreme measures to start the car (by pushing the start button several times), but I think you should investigate getting a different starter installed in your car to avoid future problems. Starters meant for manual transmissions are much safer. I'm very happy with mine and the extra steps to shut down the car are worth it for the peace of mind. Good luck getting this taken care of.
EDIT: I had some additional thoughts I wanted to add.
Prof, I don't know of any aftermarket starters that have a way to detect whether the car is in neutral or not. The way UltraStart knows if it is in neutral is based on the shut-down procedure. If you can close the door with the engine running without the car moving, then the system assumes it is in neutral.
As for an e-brake sensor, any remote starter for manual transmissions should have this. My starter requires the e-brake to be on to start the shut-down procedure and the system will not start unless the e-brake is engaged. If this system didn't have an e-brake sensor, then it shouldn't have been installed on a manual transmission.
-TRB
I definitely agree that the dealer should fix the car since it sounds like the car wash person went to extreme measures to start the car (by pushing the start button several times), but I think you should investigate getting a different starter installed in your car to avoid future problems. Starters meant for manual transmissions are much safer. I'm very happy with mine and the extra steps to shut down the car are worth it for the peace of mind. Good luck getting this taken care of.
EDIT: I had some additional thoughts I wanted to add.
Prof, I don't know of any aftermarket starters that have a way to detect whether the car is in neutral or not. The way UltraStart knows if it is in neutral is based on the shut-down procedure. If you can close the door with the engine running without the car moving, then the system assumes it is in neutral.
As for an e-brake sensor, any remote starter for manual transmissions should have this. My starter requires the e-brake to be on to start the shut-down procedure and the system will not start unless the e-brake is engaged. If this system didn't have an e-brake sensor, then it shouldn't have been installed on a manual transmission.
-TRB
02-22-2006, 02:54 AM
#13
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location:
Posts: 22
RE: Dealer Beware (Long but need to get the word out)
Jason,
The things I'm reading from your fellow stangers make a lot of sence. Another avenue you should pursue is with your state's DMV. I'm not familiar with Texas law, but I had a problem with a dealership here in Connecticut years ago. To keep a long story short, I filed a complaint against the dealership with the DMV, they investigated and found the dealer to be in violation of state regulations (particularly in the area of proper documentation of performed maintenance which is one of your main issues). They provided me with an expert (state regulator level professional) witness in the court hearings which clearly sealed the dealership's fate in my case. I not only won, the GM lost his job and the dealership was placed on a special "off limits" list for military personnel due to their shady business practices (costing them big time in lost customers and revenue).
I would also get your insurance company involved (have the adjuster view your car and come up with a repair estimate and let them fix your car right) even though you may not want to and here is why:
1) They will have lawyers who will act on your behalf and recoupe their costs from the party(s) at fault. Looks to me to be several possibilities: The dealership (car was in their possession and on their property at the time of the accident. They also performed substandard repairs that will require rework for it to be done right), the car detailer (who is most and likely contracted by the dealership possibly releasing them from any liability. Detailers are usually young kids without any insurance so you may come up short with him), and finally the remote start manufacturer and/or installation company (faulty design and/or failure to properly install safety features).
2) The insurance company's repairs are with new parts (not the bondo repairs you got from the dealer), typically come with a 100% warranty meaning they'll repair faulty parts/workmanship and even repair problems that were associated with the accident but were initially missed and not noticed until later (good luck trying to get your dealer to fix any of those right?).
3) Your insurance company will not find you at fault and this will not effect your rates.
The way I see it (from experience) you come out one top with a much better repair using new parts, proper documentation and warranty for said work without it impacting your rates or going on your driving record. Plus you'll get to stick it to the dealership and their owners a little more than if you simply just sent your letter.
Good luck and let us all know how this turns out for you. Also if you want more info on the specifics of my situation e-mail me and I'll give you what I've got.
The things I'm reading from your fellow stangers make a lot of sence. Another avenue you should pursue is with your state's DMV. I'm not familiar with Texas law, but I had a problem with a dealership here in Connecticut years ago. To keep a long story short, I filed a complaint against the dealership with the DMV, they investigated and found the dealer to be in violation of state regulations (particularly in the area of proper documentation of performed maintenance which is one of your main issues). They provided me with an expert (state regulator level professional) witness in the court hearings which clearly sealed the dealership's fate in my case. I not only won, the GM lost his job and the dealership was placed on a special "off limits" list for military personnel due to their shady business practices (costing them big time in lost customers and revenue).
I would also get your insurance company involved (have the adjuster view your car and come up with a repair estimate and let them fix your car right) even though you may not want to and here is why:
1) They will have lawyers who will act on your behalf and recoupe their costs from the party(s) at fault. Looks to me to be several possibilities: The dealership (car was in their possession and on their property at the time of the accident. They also performed substandard repairs that will require rework for it to be done right), the car detailer (who is most and likely contracted by the dealership possibly releasing them from any liability. Detailers are usually young kids without any insurance so you may come up short with him), and finally the remote start manufacturer and/or installation company (faulty design and/or failure to properly install safety features).
2) The insurance company's repairs are with new parts (not the bondo repairs you got from the dealer), typically come with a 100% warranty meaning they'll repair faulty parts/workmanship and even repair problems that were associated with the accident but were initially missed and not noticed until later (good luck trying to get your dealer to fix any of those right?).
3) Your insurance company will not find you at fault and this will not effect your rates.
The way I see it (from experience) you come out one top with a much better repair using new parts, proper documentation and warranty for said work without it impacting your rates or going on your driving record. Plus you'll get to stick it to the dealership and their owners a little more than if you simply just sent your letter.
Good luck and let us all know how this turns out for you. Also if you want more info on the specifics of my situation e-mail me and I'll give you what I've got.
02-22-2006, 11:26 AM
#14
MF Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Missouri
Posts: 3,441
RE: Dealer Beware (Long but need to get the word out)
I have a fealing it is going to be a sticky one.
Mind you I am taking the devils advocate approach here!
You knowling left a car with remote start on a manual transmission. You knew that the car could be started while in gear and yet you also left it in the dealerships posession, WITH the "Remote Star"t Control fob, instead of leaving the factory key fob.
In a sense - it was an accident waiting to happen.
The dealership can - and most likely will - counter that proper safety measures were not taken on your part to prevent the car from starting while in gear. They could and probably will bring counter suite against you for endangering their employees, customers and property by leaving your car with the remote start control and no safety features installed, and no notification of the possible runaway situation.
Did you explain to the dealership in writing that the car could be started while in gear? (Telling somebody verbally will not count in a court of law without witnesses to the statement!)
I have remote start on my car - - I NEVER leave them with that key fob, I always make it a point to give them the factory fob. That way if they lose or break it they didn't put me "out".
Mind you I am taking the devils advocate approach here!
You knowling left a car with remote start on a manual transmission. You knew that the car could be started while in gear and yet you also left it in the dealerships posession, WITH the "Remote Star"t Control fob, instead of leaving the factory key fob.
In a sense - it was an accident waiting to happen.
The dealership can - and most likely will - counter that proper safety measures were not taken on your part to prevent the car from starting while in gear. They could and probably will bring counter suite against you for endangering their employees, customers and property by leaving your car with the remote start control and no safety features installed, and no notification of the possible runaway situation.
Did you explain to the dealership in writing that the car could be started while in gear? (Telling somebody verbally will not count in a court of law without witnesses to the statement!)
I have remote start on my car - - I NEVER leave them with that key fob, I always make it a point to give them the factory fob. That way if they lose or break it they didn't put me "out".
02-22-2006, 03:39 PM
#15
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location:
Posts: 3,020
RE: Dealer Beware (Long but need to get the word out)
A few things here. When you drop off a car for service at a ford dealer, once Ford takes posession of the car, IT IS THEIR RESPONSIBILITY. The neglegance here is their failure to set the e brake. Period. They have no legal stance. If Ford corporate involved yet? They need to be. Obviously, they didn't send the correct paperwork because there was none. They probably had some amature employee step up and say "My dad's a tv repair man. He has an ultimate set of tools. I can fix it". When the guy threatened to have you removed from the dealer by police force, I would have lost it. I say get a lawyer and force then to return your carn to it's original condition.
02-22-2006, 07:15 PM
#16
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location:
Posts: 737
RE: Dealer Beware (Long but need to get the word out)
One other thing about non-interlocking remote start- even IF the remote fob was not in their posession, 'what if' another car on same freq was around? theres only so many frequencies/access codes available...what if somebody keyed up their nextel phone nearby (these seem to affect a lot of equipment if not shielded really well).
I for one would disable that remote starter until a hardwired interlock was secured. if anything can happen, eventually it will. I know you can 'what if' things to death, but theres a few things that just need to be failsafed- and I really think this is one of them. imagine if something failed in the (probably Chinese made, probably retail $50) remote start and it tried to crank while you were driving- you'd need to pull the tranny to replace flywheel and starter...Id expect ten times the cost of the remote, and a lot more than a $10 switch...a little failsafe redundancy can eliminate a LOT of 'what ifs'.
I for one would disable that remote starter until a hardwired interlock was secured. if anything can happen, eventually it will. I know you can 'what if' things to death, but theres a few things that just need to be failsafed- and I really think this is one of them. imagine if something failed in the (probably Chinese made, probably retail $50) remote start and it tried to crank while you were driving- you'd need to pull the tranny to replace flywheel and starter...Id expect ten times the cost of the remote, and a lot more than a $10 switch...a little failsafe redundancy can eliminate a LOT of 'what ifs'.
02-22-2006, 11:24 PM
#17
1st Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location:
Posts: 133
RE: Dealer Beware (Long but need to get the word out)
jskwarek
if you are talking about north central ford in Richardson/ Plano TX shoot me a pm, i have been having similar problems with them
basically my trunk has broken 6 times and they have repaired it 6 times, i am looking to take some sort of action, gimme a holler
if you are talking about north central ford in Richardson/ Plano TX shoot me a pm, i have been having similar problems with them
basically my trunk has broken 6 times and they have repaired it 6 times, i am looking to take some sort of action, gimme a holler
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