5.8l swap questions
07-11-2006, 03:05 PM
#1
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Join Date: Feb 2006
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Posts: 276
5.8l swap questions
hey all, im going to be putting a 351 in my 91lx soon and have a few questions. the motor in in now has a cobra intake, b cam, and y303 heads. i know i need the different lower for the intake, but are these parts ok for the 5.8 or are they gonna choke it too much? should i look for a different set of heads or cam? also, how big of a cam can you run on a 5.8 before i gotta worry about ptv clearance? this will be a street strip car with a little more on the strip side
07-11-2006, 03:19 PM
#3
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Prince Frederick, Maryland
Posts: 236
RE: 5.8l swap questions
The 302 parts would definately be a choke for the much larger 351. Yu would probably be better off selling the 302 stuff and buying more appropriate parts for the new engine. How big of a cam would have many determinig factors, such as cylinder head (combustion chamber size, valve size) , piston design (stock, aftermarket with larger valve reliefs, flat top, dome, etc), not to mention the lift, duration, and timing of the valve opening and closing plays a role in PTV clearance. The injectors would again depend on your combination but I wouldnt go with anything less than a 42lb injector myself.
07-11-2006, 04:30 PM
#4
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Join Date: Feb 2006
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Posts: 276
RE: 5.8l swap questions
i figured they would be a choke, but funds are low and i would like to just get it running and upgrade as money allows. will it at least run ok with these parts? the cam thing i was just wondering what the typical max lift is that you can get away with with stock pistons. this will not be a drag terror or anything, just looking for some descent power without killing driveability. i know that bigger motors can
take the same lift cam as a smaller motor and be alot tamer, i was just wondering how big i can go for the street and if i will have clearance issues. anyone wanna recommend a good setup?
take the same lift cam as a smaller motor and be alot tamer, i was just wondering how big i can go for the street and if i will have clearance issues. anyone wanna recommend a good setup?
07-12-2006, 01:41 AM
#7
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 1,375
RE: 5.8l swap questions
Sorry for the lack of formatting.
It is easier to read on my site.
http://www.freewebs.com/vristang/fox351wswapfaq.htm
I have some other references there as well.
302 to 351W Swap In A Fox Body Mustang
VRISTANG
Note: This FAQ was written for converting a T-5 5.0 efi Mustang to a T-5 351w efi Mustang. The conversion will be slightly different if starting with a 2.3l or carbureted Mustang OR converting to a carbureted 351w. Converting transmissions is beyond the scope of this document.
Background Info-
The major disadvantage of the 302 is its lack of strength at high power levels. Most will agree that at ~500hp the factory 302 block will try to split in half. For many the solution to this is an aftermarket 302 block.
Another alternative is to swap in a 351w block. There are 2 production blocks available; the 69-70 blocks had a deck height of 9.480â€, and the 71 up blocks had a deck height of 9.503.†This is compared to the 302 deck height of 8.200†The 69-70 blocks also had thicker main webs and higher nickel content, making them significantly stronger. From 70 to 74 the 351w maintained the higher nickel content, but lost some of the material in the main webs. Another small reduction in the main web thickness occurred in 75, along with another reduction in Nickel content (supposedly), but after that the block remained basically unchanged until it ended production. From 1994 on, all 351w blocks were equipped with roller cams/lifters.
Getting Into the Nitty Gritty
Firing Order-
A discussion on various firing orders will be included here, when I get time to compile some notes.
Camshaft-
The specs of the cam will depend mostly on what your goals are for the motor. Cam spec selection is way beyond the scope of this FAQ. What you want to watch out for is selecting the correct base circle for the deck height and lifter combination, and using the stock 302 HO firing order (since you are most likely reusing the stock 302 computer). Probably the best thing you can do is ask the company you plan on purchasing the cam from, what would be appropriate for your application. They will need to know what year the block is and what lifters you plan on running. Additionally it may be helpful to have your rocker ratio available, and what piston you will be using if not stock.
Here is some unverified info on Ford 302 & 351w firing orders.
early 289 & 302 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
302HO & 351w 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 (this is all 83-93 Mustangs, and all 5.0 Explorers)
Pushrods-
Again, there are far too many options available to cover here. Check with the cam manufacturer on what length pushrod you will need. Or even better, you can use a pushrod length checker and measure them yourself.
Roller Lifters-
The stock 302 lifters can be swapped over to the 351w with a little machining and grinding. First the spider will require 2 holes to be drilled in the main valley. These holes will be drilled over the cam bearings, so great care should be taken not to damage the camshaft or bearings. Risk can be minimized by removing the camshaft, and drilling the holes before the cam bearing is installed. Some grinding will need to be done to allow the factory 302 dogbones to sit flush on the 351w block as well. A dremel is adequate to get the job done. Be patient and work slow; it is easier to remove material than put it back. Of course it would be best to do this work before having the block cleaned and prepped for assy. Ford Hydraulic Roller lifter (for both the 302 and 351w) part number is M-6500-302.
If all of this does not sound appealing to you then maybe some of the aftermarket roller lifters will be a better option. These tend to be fairly expensive however. Look for lifter pairs that have a link bar, connecting each pair of lifters.
Rocker Arms-
This will depend on the heads you select. All of the same rules that apply to selecting rockers for a 302 still apply to the 351w. Options to consider are Pedestal vs. Stud Mount, Roller vs. Non-Roller, and Brand.
Engine Mounts-
Stock 5.0 mounts will bolt up to the 351w. Aftermarket alternatives include solid mounts and polyurethane mounts. Convertible Engine mounts are supposedly reinforced & stronger. Another alternative is lowering engine mounts from HP Motorsports. These are solid and lower the motor ~¾â€. Lowering engine mounts are useful for gaining hood clearance, but will also reduce clearance between the oil pan and stock k-member. This presents clearance issues with some aftermarket pans and stock k-members, but should be ok for the FRPP pan. The use of an aftermarket tubular k-member may help improve clearance.
Heads-
302 heads are the same as the 351w heads with the exception of the head bolt diameter. 302 heads have a 7/16†head bolt hole and the 351w has a ½†head bolt. Opening the holes can be done by hand, if done with care. It would be best to send this work to a machine shop however.
Exhaust Headers-
Stock 302 headers will bolt up the head of a 351w (since the heads are basically the same), but will not mate up to the factory 302 mid-pipe due to the extra width of the 351w. There are many aftermarket suppliers of 351w Fox Body headers including MAC, FRPP, Kooks, Hooker, and Hedman. The Ford shorty headers are p/n M-9430-A58.
Intake Manifold-
Since the lifter valley of the taller 351w is wider than the 302, a new lower intake is required. Aftermarket suppliers of 351w intakes are numerous. Most of these companies offer a 351w lower intake that will bolt up to the 302 upper intakes, which many Mustang owners may already have. Being able to reuse your current upper intake can present a significant $ savings.
Be cautious with intake height if you are trying to clear a stock hood. If the above mentioned drop motor mounts are not used then, another option is to cut down the upper intake. This is easier on the plastic box upper from Comp Cams, as the aluminum intakes will require cutting/welding followed my machining to square up the mating surface.
Shortening the upper intake will cause clearance issues between the TB and valve cover if the upper is trimmed more than ~¾â€. Keep in mind that TrickFlow and many other aftermarket head companies have raised the valve cover flange up to .300†which will limit how much you can trim from the upper intake. Of course the use of tall aftermarket valve covers will be somewhat restricted as well. If you do plan on cutting the upper intake, be sure to do a full mock up with all parts that will be installed later. The part numbers for the Ford 351w Cobra manifold are as follows; Upper M-9424-D50 / Lower M-9461-D58.
Oil Pan-
The 351w is wider so a new oil pan is required. The lowest cost option is probably the FRPP 351w pan for Fox Body applications (M-6675-A58). Aftermarket companies have standard volume, high volume, drag race, and road race pans available. A pan specific pickup tube and dipstick will also be necessary. If using a main girdle and/or windage tray, be sure to select an oil pan that will clear these added components. If you can find them 351w equipped Crown Victoria and Grand Marquis had an oil pan that will fit in your Fox Body Mustang.
Oil pump-
The 351w oil pump is different from the 302 (mostly external). These are readily available in standard volume, high volume, and high pressure models. If a high volume oil pump is to be used, it is recommended that a high volume oil pan be used as well (most aftermarket HV pans seem to be 7qt).
Distributor-
The taller 351w does require a longer distributor. This can found from several stock Ford factory efi applications, mostly pickup trucks/vans. Some afterma
It is easier to read on my site.
http://www.freewebs.com/vristang/fox351wswapfaq.htm
I have some other references there as well.
302 to 351W Swap In A Fox Body Mustang
VRISTANG
Note: This FAQ was written for converting a T-5 5.0 efi Mustang to a T-5 351w efi Mustang. The conversion will be slightly different if starting with a 2.3l or carbureted Mustang OR converting to a carbureted 351w. Converting transmissions is beyond the scope of this document.
Background Info-
The major disadvantage of the 302 is its lack of strength at high power levels. Most will agree that at ~500hp the factory 302 block will try to split in half. For many the solution to this is an aftermarket 302 block.
Another alternative is to swap in a 351w block. There are 2 production blocks available; the 69-70 blocks had a deck height of 9.480â€, and the 71 up blocks had a deck height of 9.503.†This is compared to the 302 deck height of 8.200†The 69-70 blocks also had thicker main webs and higher nickel content, making them significantly stronger. From 70 to 74 the 351w maintained the higher nickel content, but lost some of the material in the main webs. Another small reduction in the main web thickness occurred in 75, along with another reduction in Nickel content (supposedly), but after that the block remained basically unchanged until it ended production. From 1994 on, all 351w blocks were equipped with roller cams/lifters.
Getting Into the Nitty Gritty
Firing Order-
A discussion on various firing orders will be included here, when I get time to compile some notes.
Camshaft-
The specs of the cam will depend mostly on what your goals are for the motor. Cam spec selection is way beyond the scope of this FAQ. What you want to watch out for is selecting the correct base circle for the deck height and lifter combination, and using the stock 302 HO firing order (since you are most likely reusing the stock 302 computer). Probably the best thing you can do is ask the company you plan on purchasing the cam from, what would be appropriate for your application. They will need to know what year the block is and what lifters you plan on running. Additionally it may be helpful to have your rocker ratio available, and what piston you will be using if not stock.
Here is some unverified info on Ford 302 & 351w firing orders.
early 289 & 302 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
302HO & 351w 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 (this is all 83-93 Mustangs, and all 5.0 Explorers)
Pushrods-
Again, there are far too many options available to cover here. Check with the cam manufacturer on what length pushrod you will need. Or even better, you can use a pushrod length checker and measure them yourself.
Roller Lifters-
The stock 302 lifters can be swapped over to the 351w with a little machining and grinding. First the spider will require 2 holes to be drilled in the main valley. These holes will be drilled over the cam bearings, so great care should be taken not to damage the camshaft or bearings. Risk can be minimized by removing the camshaft, and drilling the holes before the cam bearing is installed. Some grinding will need to be done to allow the factory 302 dogbones to sit flush on the 351w block as well. A dremel is adequate to get the job done. Be patient and work slow; it is easier to remove material than put it back. Of course it would be best to do this work before having the block cleaned and prepped for assy. Ford Hydraulic Roller lifter (for both the 302 and 351w) part number is M-6500-302.
If all of this does not sound appealing to you then maybe some of the aftermarket roller lifters will be a better option. These tend to be fairly expensive however. Look for lifter pairs that have a link bar, connecting each pair of lifters.
Rocker Arms-
This will depend on the heads you select. All of the same rules that apply to selecting rockers for a 302 still apply to the 351w. Options to consider are Pedestal vs. Stud Mount, Roller vs. Non-Roller, and Brand.
Engine Mounts-
Stock 5.0 mounts will bolt up to the 351w. Aftermarket alternatives include solid mounts and polyurethane mounts. Convertible Engine mounts are supposedly reinforced & stronger. Another alternative is lowering engine mounts from HP Motorsports. These are solid and lower the motor ~¾â€. Lowering engine mounts are useful for gaining hood clearance, but will also reduce clearance between the oil pan and stock k-member. This presents clearance issues with some aftermarket pans and stock k-members, but should be ok for the FRPP pan. The use of an aftermarket tubular k-member may help improve clearance.
Heads-
302 heads are the same as the 351w heads with the exception of the head bolt diameter. 302 heads have a 7/16†head bolt hole and the 351w has a ½†head bolt. Opening the holes can be done by hand, if done with care. It would be best to send this work to a machine shop however.
Exhaust Headers-
Stock 302 headers will bolt up the head of a 351w (since the heads are basically the same), but will not mate up to the factory 302 mid-pipe due to the extra width of the 351w. There are many aftermarket suppliers of 351w Fox Body headers including MAC, FRPP, Kooks, Hooker, and Hedman. The Ford shorty headers are p/n M-9430-A58.
Intake Manifold-
Since the lifter valley of the taller 351w is wider than the 302, a new lower intake is required. Aftermarket suppliers of 351w intakes are numerous. Most of these companies offer a 351w lower intake that will bolt up to the 302 upper intakes, which many Mustang owners may already have. Being able to reuse your current upper intake can present a significant $ savings.
Be cautious with intake height if you are trying to clear a stock hood. If the above mentioned drop motor mounts are not used then, another option is to cut down the upper intake. This is easier on the plastic box upper from Comp Cams, as the aluminum intakes will require cutting/welding followed my machining to square up the mating surface.
Shortening the upper intake will cause clearance issues between the TB and valve cover if the upper is trimmed more than ~¾â€. Keep in mind that TrickFlow and many other aftermarket head companies have raised the valve cover flange up to .300†which will limit how much you can trim from the upper intake. Of course the use of tall aftermarket valve covers will be somewhat restricted as well. If you do plan on cutting the upper intake, be sure to do a full mock up with all parts that will be installed later. The part numbers for the Ford 351w Cobra manifold are as follows; Upper M-9424-D50 / Lower M-9461-D58.
Oil Pan-
The 351w is wider so a new oil pan is required. The lowest cost option is probably the FRPP 351w pan for Fox Body applications (M-6675-A58). Aftermarket companies have standard volume, high volume, drag race, and road race pans available. A pan specific pickup tube and dipstick will also be necessary. If using a main girdle and/or windage tray, be sure to select an oil pan that will clear these added components. If you can find them 351w equipped Crown Victoria and Grand Marquis had an oil pan that will fit in your Fox Body Mustang.
Oil pump-
The 351w oil pump is different from the 302 (mostly external). These are readily available in standard volume, high volume, and high pressure models. If a high volume oil pump is to be used, it is recommended that a high volume oil pan be used as well (most aftermarket HV pans seem to be 7qt).
Distributor-
The taller 351w does require a longer distributor. This can found from several stock Ford factory efi applications, mostly pickup trucks/vans. Some afterma
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