The N/A WAY to reach 12s
07-26-2004, 05:24 PM
#11
1st Gear Member
Join Date: May 2004
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Posts: 52
RE: The N/A WAY to reach 12s
ORIGINAL: USAMuscle
If you want easy 12's N/A, dump a 351 in there. More cubes is the easiest way to go faster. My goal for my Pontiac is high 9's N/A at 3600 lbs. Easy to do with 461 cubes.
Anyway the 4.6 is fully capable of hitting 12's N/A, but I think you'd be pretty close to maxing out the engine's potential without a power adder. Get some slicks and every bolt-on under the sun, plus some internal modifications like cams and P&P heads, and you can do it.
If you want easy 12's N/A, dump a 351 in there. More cubes is the easiest way to go faster. My goal for my Pontiac is high 9's N/A at 3600 lbs. Easy to do with 461 cubes.
Anyway the 4.6 is fully capable of hitting 12's N/A, but I think you'd be pretty close to maxing out the engine's potential without a power adder. Get some slicks and every bolt-on under the sun, plus some internal modifications like cams and P&P heads, and you can do it.
I'm right on it's door step...the 12's are mine now. I ran the 13.08 about 6 months ago w no suspension mods, heads, cams, headers or tune..It will take the majority of all the bolt on's and some slicks or DR's... Drive it like you stole it....and keep your fingers crossed nothing lets loose....
07-26-2004, 05:30 PM
#13
I ♥ Acer
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: United States
Posts: 8,826
RE: The N/A WAY to reach 12s
But see thats my point nomo - you don't need a wild springy suspension and slicks to run 12's with a supercharger. WIth a supercharger the high trap speed will make up for the lack of traction and get you 12's. Im likely not gonna do anything more to my suspension and just live with my 13 second passes until fall comes - and then just hope and pray for a 12.9 - I just don't believe in bragging about times when you run slicks and no sway bar - since you can't run them on the street when that camero or vette pulls up next to you...
07-26-2004, 05:35 PM
#14
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location:
Posts: 351
RE: The N/A WAY to reach 12s
That's true. Hey MD, good job droppin the E.T. phone home. My piece of crap fisher price computer @ work sux. I will see that video when I get home. Congrats...........by the way I am getting steeda pullies this friday, do you think it will take off a tenth?
07-26-2004, 05:36 PM
#15
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,883
RE: The N/A WAY to reach 12s
ORIGINAL: mdvaldosta
But see thats my point nomo - you don't need a wild springy suspension and slicks to run 12's with a supercharger. WIth a supercharger the high trap speed will make up for the lack of traction and get you 12's. Im likely not gonna do anything more to my suspension and just live with my 13 second passes until fall comes - and then just hope and pray for a 12.9 - I just don't believe in bragging about times when you run slicks and no sway bar - since you can't run them on the street when that camero or vette pulls up next to you...
But see thats my point nomo - you don't need a wild springy suspension and slicks to run 12's with a supercharger. WIth a supercharger the high trap speed will make up for the lack of traction and get you 12's. Im likely not gonna do anything more to my suspension and just live with my 13 second passes until fall comes - and then just hope and pray for a 12.9 - I just don't believe in bragging about times when you run slicks and no sway bar - since you can't run them on the street when that camero or vette pulls up next to you...
07-26-2004, 05:39 PM
#16
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: United States
Posts: 1,404
RE: The N/A WAY to reach 12s
ORIGINAL: mdvaldosta
I just don't believe in bragging about times when you run slicks and no sway bar - since you can't run them on the street when that camero or vette pulls up next to you...
I just don't believe in bragging about times when you run slicks and no sway bar - since you can't run them on the street when that camero or vette pulls up next to you...
07-26-2004, 05:40 PM
#17
I ♥ Acer
Join Date: Sep 2003
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RE: The N/A WAY to reach 12s
Exactly nomo. While its easy for me to get discouraged when I post a 13.4 myself - I know that for less than $25 and a set of slicks I could easily post mid 12 second passes in cool weather - its just not the same. Im gonna run at the track however I run at the street. If its a track-only car then I would do everything possible for low e.t.'s - but because this is my daily driver - I don't wanna go bragging about 12 second passes and get beat by a 13 second camero at a stoplight.
07-26-2004, 05:46 PM
#18
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,883
RE: The N/A WAY to reach 12s
ORIGINAL: mdvaldosta
I don't wanna go bragging about 12 second passes and get beat by a 13 second camero at a stoplight.
I don't wanna go bragging about 12 second passes and get beat by a 13 second camero at a stoplight.
07-26-2004, 06:33 PM
#19
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Join Date: Feb 2004
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Posts: 335
RE: The N/A WAY to reach 12s
EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF INFO IN THIS POST ISN"T MINE>>>>>ALL STOLEN!!!!!!!!!!
Five Components to a 12 second NA GT
Before reading on I just want to say that this is basically geared towards drag racers not your average enthusiast looking for 12s on street tires with no real changes to the car. Not that it canāt be applied to someone looking for that but this is geared more towards the people out there looking for 12s and willing to work for it.
1.) Power ā If you listen to some old school drag racers they may say you need at least 300+RWHP to hit 12ās in most cars. In some heavier cars that may be true but fact is suspensions are more refined these days and cars donāt weight 4,000 lbs. Most PI headed cars will hit the 245-255RWHP mark with basic mods (Pulleys, Timing Adjuster or chip, O/R H or X, K&N or other type of high flow filter and although not a power modā¦gears 4.10s or 4.30s). For a bolt on GT this is enough power to get the car into the 12s after you follow the other steps. Keep in mind more power will make it easier to reach your goal or help offset more weight (see next section) but it can be done with less.
2.) Weight - You basic 5 speed coupe without driver weights 3250lbs. So with an average driver weighing about 180lbs that puts your race weight at 3430lbs. At that weight and a power to weight ratio of .075 you would need 258RWHP to hit 12ās. Power to weight is the power of your car (rear wheel) divided by race weight of the car. Using my car when I broke into the 12ās first time I was making 246RWHP and had a race weight of 3250lb, which worked out to a .075 power to weight ratio or .075RWHP per pound of the car. From what Iāve seen a car can get into the 12s with a .075 to .080 P/W ratio. So if your race weight is 3430lbs then 3430 * .075 = 257.25RWHP. As long as you keep this ratio in the .075 to .080 range you are fine plus keep in mind you can drop weight instead of adding power. An example of this is a car with a 3000lb race weight could break into the 12s with 225RWHP (close to stock power on a GT).
Now Iām sure some of you are asking about weight reduction. Basic weight reduction would be rear seat delete, removal of spare tire, jack, tire ironā¦these would knock a good 70-80lbs from the car. Add a set of welds or light weight race wheels and you are looking at another 60-80lbs. For more information about specific weights and more ideas look hereā¦ http://users.adelphia.net/~mustang-...20Reduction.htm
3.) Suspension - I feel that this component has the most leeway so to speak. Iāve seen near stock suspension cars get good weight transfer. I honestly believe a car that meets the other requirements could hit 12s on the stock suspension. However those of you that want to get an edge should read on. First thing I would do is look at springs since most of us want a better stance but still want weight transfer. For that look at fox body 4cyl front springs I usually look to the junkyards for these but most buy stock replacements at a local shop (avoid Moog brand though they are taller than stock specs). For the rear end I go with fox body v8 rear springs cut anywhere from a Ā¼ to 1 coil to level out the car. Just keep in mind that itās easier to cut too little than too much spring.
Next I would highly recommend a pair of sub-frame connectors welded in to tie the chassis together. Hard launches on slicks will twist the body and this will help keep it straight. Last piece to really help out is struts I went with Lakewoods because they are readily available and affordable but adjustables can be used as well if you have the budget for them. 70/30s and 90/10ās both work well and I stick with fox body specific struts since the car is lowered. Fox body specific springs are Ā¾ā shorter than stock SN-95 springs so the lower fox body specific struts are shorter.
4.) Traction ā Iāll cut to the chase here and just skip over street tires and drag radials and go right to slicks. Not that it canāt be done on these tires but it will take more power, more patience and much more writing on my part so weāll stick to slicks. Cars in this weight range and power level only need a 26x8.5x15 ET Drag for traction. Itās close to stock tire height and is more than enough to make our cars hook on the track. A better suspension will result in better 60 foot times but even on stock suspension a good burnout on slicks will not spin unless the track is poorly prepped or fluids are on the track. Some people opt for cheap steel wheels which I donāt necessarily recommend since you are keeping extra weight on the axles. This opens you up for possible breakage so I would go with a weld wheel instead even if itās a pair of used ones for track only purposes. Regardless a 15x8 with 5 on 4.5 bolt pattern and 5.5 backspacing will fit perfect, or if you insist on a wider tire like a 10ā then a 15x10 with 5 on 4.5 bolt pattern and 6.5 backspacing will also work on our cars.
5.) Practice ā This is one component that you canāt buy at any store, you can learn it from a text book and you canāt ask your friends about you simply have to get out there. Iām not saying everyone should be like me and hit every test and tune but donāt expect to make one trip and bingo your in the 12ās. I race on slicks for 3 months before hitting my first 12 second pass. Going to slicks alone was a big change that I had to adjust to before I got the hang of and learned to shift better, etcā¦ Take your time, get comfortable in the car and have fun with it. Do that and youāll achieve your goal.
Now that you know the key components to get into the 12ās you have to keep it all together. ļ In the above situation I would highly recommend an aftermarket shifter just to help keep the transmission alive longer. The biggest weakness in the above is the differential and axles. Not to say they canāt take some abuse because they can, mine went almost a full year of launches on slicks before breaking. I would look at a set of 31 spline axles and an Eaton or Ford 31 spline differential beefed up to keep the back end in one piece.
Bill
Five Components to a 12 second NA GT
Before reading on I just want to say that this is basically geared towards drag racers not your average enthusiast looking for 12s on street tires with no real changes to the car. Not that it canāt be applied to someone looking for that but this is geared more towards the people out there looking for 12s and willing to work for it.
1.) Power ā If you listen to some old school drag racers they may say you need at least 300+RWHP to hit 12ās in most cars. In some heavier cars that may be true but fact is suspensions are more refined these days and cars donāt weight 4,000 lbs. Most PI headed cars will hit the 245-255RWHP mark with basic mods (Pulleys, Timing Adjuster or chip, O/R H or X, K&N or other type of high flow filter and although not a power modā¦gears 4.10s or 4.30s). For a bolt on GT this is enough power to get the car into the 12s after you follow the other steps. Keep in mind more power will make it easier to reach your goal or help offset more weight (see next section) but it can be done with less.
2.) Weight - You basic 5 speed coupe without driver weights 3250lbs. So with an average driver weighing about 180lbs that puts your race weight at 3430lbs. At that weight and a power to weight ratio of .075 you would need 258RWHP to hit 12ās. Power to weight is the power of your car (rear wheel) divided by race weight of the car. Using my car when I broke into the 12ās first time I was making 246RWHP and had a race weight of 3250lb, which worked out to a .075 power to weight ratio or .075RWHP per pound of the car. From what Iāve seen a car can get into the 12s with a .075 to .080 P/W ratio. So if your race weight is 3430lbs then 3430 * .075 = 257.25RWHP. As long as you keep this ratio in the .075 to .080 range you are fine plus keep in mind you can drop weight instead of adding power. An example of this is a car with a 3000lb race weight could break into the 12s with 225RWHP (close to stock power on a GT).
Now Iām sure some of you are asking about weight reduction. Basic weight reduction would be rear seat delete, removal of spare tire, jack, tire ironā¦these would knock a good 70-80lbs from the car. Add a set of welds or light weight race wheels and you are looking at another 60-80lbs. For more information about specific weights and more ideas look hereā¦ http://users.adelphia.net/~mustang-...20Reduction.htm
3.) Suspension - I feel that this component has the most leeway so to speak. Iāve seen near stock suspension cars get good weight transfer. I honestly believe a car that meets the other requirements could hit 12s on the stock suspension. However those of you that want to get an edge should read on. First thing I would do is look at springs since most of us want a better stance but still want weight transfer. For that look at fox body 4cyl front springs I usually look to the junkyards for these but most buy stock replacements at a local shop (avoid Moog brand though they are taller than stock specs). For the rear end I go with fox body v8 rear springs cut anywhere from a Ā¼ to 1 coil to level out the car. Just keep in mind that itās easier to cut too little than too much spring.
Next I would highly recommend a pair of sub-frame connectors welded in to tie the chassis together. Hard launches on slicks will twist the body and this will help keep it straight. Last piece to really help out is struts I went with Lakewoods because they are readily available and affordable but adjustables can be used as well if you have the budget for them. 70/30s and 90/10ās both work well and I stick with fox body specific struts since the car is lowered. Fox body specific springs are Ā¾ā shorter than stock SN-95 springs so the lower fox body specific struts are shorter.
4.) Traction ā Iāll cut to the chase here and just skip over street tires and drag radials and go right to slicks. Not that it canāt be done on these tires but it will take more power, more patience and much more writing on my part so weāll stick to slicks. Cars in this weight range and power level only need a 26x8.5x15 ET Drag for traction. Itās close to stock tire height and is more than enough to make our cars hook on the track. A better suspension will result in better 60 foot times but even on stock suspension a good burnout on slicks will not spin unless the track is poorly prepped or fluids are on the track. Some people opt for cheap steel wheels which I donāt necessarily recommend since you are keeping extra weight on the axles. This opens you up for possible breakage so I would go with a weld wheel instead even if itās a pair of used ones for track only purposes. Regardless a 15x8 with 5 on 4.5 bolt pattern and 5.5 backspacing will fit perfect, or if you insist on a wider tire like a 10ā then a 15x10 with 5 on 4.5 bolt pattern and 6.5 backspacing will also work on our cars.
5.) Practice ā This is one component that you canāt buy at any store, you can learn it from a text book and you canāt ask your friends about you simply have to get out there. Iām not saying everyone should be like me and hit every test and tune but donāt expect to make one trip and bingo your in the 12ās. I race on slicks for 3 months before hitting my first 12 second pass. Going to slicks alone was a big change that I had to adjust to before I got the hang of and learned to shift better, etcā¦ Take your time, get comfortable in the car and have fun with it. Do that and youāll achieve your goal.
Now that you know the key components to get into the 12ās you have to keep it all together. ļ In the above situation I would highly recommend an aftermarket shifter just to help keep the transmission alive longer. The biggest weakness in the above is the differential and axles. Not to say they canāt take some abuse because they can, mine went almost a full year of launches on slicks before breaking. I would look at a set of 31 spline axles and an Eaton or Ford 31 spline differential beefed up to keep the back end in one piece.
Bill