Engine combo
08-31-2007, 10:51 AM
#21
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Posts: 2,441
RE: Engine combo
ORIGINAL: Mustang9668
He's saying 420 hp at the flywheel which is definitely obtainable. I researched the SVO/FRPP heads and intake and they def. destroy PI heads.
I talked with Jim or Scott from VT Engines(I forgot which it was) and they told me that they had a big bore stroker car putting down 380 at the wheels with lightly ported svo heads, out of the box intake, and mild cams. And that car was daily drivable.PI heads and intake will never do this without some serious work.
He's saying 420 hp at the flywheel which is definitely obtainable. I researched the SVO/FRPP heads and intake and they def. destroy PI heads.
I talked with Jim or Scott from VT Engines(I forgot which it was) and they told me that they had a big bore stroker car putting down 380 at the wheels with lightly ported svo heads, out of the box intake, and mild cams. And that car was daily drivable.PI heads and intake will never do this without some serious work.
as for what Jim or Scott from VT told you.. that stroker must have had paper thin walls. and any aftermarket head will destroy a stock PI head.
08-31-2007, 01:35 PM
#22
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sarasota(941)
Posts: 623
RE: Engine combo
OMG this thread is endless.
look all people are trying to do is give you some descent advice on what they know,this site does not consist of Ford engineers and Roush racing engine builders.
IF your looking for real engine building specs, numbers, cost ect. go ask an engine builder or machinest.
look all people are trying to do is give you some descent advice on what they know,this site does not consist of Ford engineers and Roush racing engine builders.
IF your looking for real engine building specs, numbers, cost ect. go ask an engine builder or machinest.
08-31-2007, 03:24 PM
#23
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location:
Posts: 2,441
RE: Engine combo
ORIGINAL: xander0561
OMG this thread is endless.
look all people are trying to do is give you some descent advice on what they know,this site does not consist of Ford engineers and Roush racing engine builders.
IF your looking for real engine building specs, numbers, cost ect. go ask an engine builder or machinest.
OMG this thread is endless.
look all people are trying to do is give you some descent advice on what they know,this site does not consist of Ford engineers and Roush racing engine builders.
IF your looking for real engine building specs, numbers, cost ect. go ask an engine builder or machinest.
08-31-2007, 03:49 PM
#24
1st Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 77
RE: Engine combo
ORIGINAL: 2002GTAUTOVERT
actually alot of us on this site are tech/mechanics... thats what makes this site better than the rest. the fact remains.. for 9,000 you could be near 500 hp if you went with a built block, F/I and other stuff. i dunno why youd wanna stay N/A on a 2 valve?? the good old large displacement, long stroke motor days have been over (except the 5.7 which is still tiny in 60-70's specs) if you really want something making that much power.. id suggest restoring a classic car.
ORIGINAL: xander0561
OMG this thread is endless.
look all people are trying to do is give you some descent advice on what they know,this site does not consist of Ford engineers and Roush racing engine builders.
IF your looking for real engine building specs, numbers, cost ect. go ask an engine builder or machinest.
OMG this thread is endless.
look all people are trying to do is give you some descent advice on what they know,this site does not consist of Ford engineers and Roush racing engine builders.
IF your looking for real engine building specs, numbers, cost ect. go ask an engine builder or machinest.
I said nothing about stroking either. Stroking loses hp and gains a bit of torq. WHile putting ur stang at risk of piston slap worst then before. Big-Bores bring your 3.55 bore to a 3.70 inch bore. Unshrouding the heads to breath better for a gain of 60 hp easy on a motor with bolt ons.
Xander0561 just mentioned that VT and others have pasted 420 hp daily drivable. What gives?
08-31-2007, 04:11 PM
#25
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location:
Posts: 2,441
RE: Engine combo
ORIGINAL: paynecasey69
I must hang around to many GM boys that brag about NA power. And why can't the 2v handle 10.1:1 compression? If you slap on PI heads and intake. your 96-98 GT is now 10.3:1 compression. So I don't see your logic that it can't do 10.1:1.
I said nothing about stroking either. Stroking loses hp and gains a bit of torq. WHile putting ur stang at risk of piston slap worst then before. Big-Bores bring your 3.55 bore to a 3.70 inch bore. Unshrouding the heads to breath better for a gain of 60 hp easy on a motor with bolt ons.
Xander0561 just mentioned that VT and others have pasted 420 hp daily drivable. What gives?
ORIGINAL: 2002GTAUTOVERT
actually alot of us on this site are tech/mechanics... thats what makes this site better than the rest. the fact remains.. for 9,000 you could be near 500 hp if you went with a built block, F/I and other stuff. i dunno why youd wanna stay N/A on a 2 valve?? the good old large displacement, long stroke motor days have been over (except the 5.7 which is still tiny in 60-70's specs) if you really want something making that much power.. id suggest restoring a classic car.
ORIGINAL: xander0561
OMG this thread is endless.
look all people are trying to do is give you some descent advice on what they know,this site does not consist of Ford engineers and Roush racing engine builders.
IF your looking for real engine building specs, numbers, cost ect. go ask an engine builder or machinest.
OMG this thread is endless.
look all people are trying to do is give you some descent advice on what they know,this site does not consist of Ford engineers and Roush racing engine builders.
IF your looking for real engine building specs, numbers, cost ect. go ask an engine builder or machinest.
I said nothing about stroking either. Stroking loses hp and gains a bit of torq. WHile putting ur stang at risk of piston slap worst then before. Big-Bores bring your 3.55 bore to a 3.70 inch bore. Unshrouding the heads to breath better for a gain of 60 hp easy on a motor with bolt ons.
Xander0561 just mentioned that VT and others have pasted 420 hp daily drivable. What gives?
Xander mentioned that others have pasted 420 HP N/A that are daily driveable.. as each of our definition of a DD varies, i highly doubt you can get to that level.. N/A on a 2 valve. you posted all your numbers in the first post on this thread (which was genorous at least) and came to the conclusion that you could hit that number. Ill tell you if we could.. most of us wouldnt be buying superchargers to even GET TO 400HP. at 420 HP N/A IF you get there.. will cost alot more than $9,000 and will cost more than to supercharger your 4.6 and get there under $9,000. alot of this should be common sense, i dunno why i have to post the same thing over and over??
EDIT: http://www.corral.net/forums/showthr...p;pagenumber=1
read that, thats a guy with a 4valve N/A with stage 2 heads and cam work. granted its with the 306ci
08-31-2007, 05:30 PM
#26
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 77
RE: Engine combo
2002GTAutoVert
Here is a link for you. Just have to wade through all the smack talk.
http://forums.modulardepot.com/4-6l-...-npi-data.html
The link has actual flow numbers of Npi vs PI heads. Also note that while in stock form PI heads flow more CFM but during a full race port the heads flow almost identical. And actually the Intake flow of PI have a slightly betterExhaust flow, while the NPI have a slightly better Intake flow then PI heads. Meaning npi are better for NA and PI are better for superchargers. But in the end FRPP heads fully ported eat both, while being part of the family of 96-98 GT head port matching.
Why go NA for more when for less you can be blown? Originality! Look a blown stang oh you don't see those, oh wait blown stangs are a dime a dozen. Oh look, 400+ NA stang 4.6 bored to 5.0, sick. I've been researching NA motor upgrade for some time now and well going blown would be to easy.
Here is a link for you. Just have to wade through all the smack talk.
http://forums.modulardepot.com/4-6l-...-npi-data.html
The link has actual flow numbers of Npi vs PI heads. Also note that while in stock form PI heads flow more CFM but during a full race port the heads flow almost identical. And actually the Intake flow of PI have a slightly betterExhaust flow, while the NPI have a slightly better Intake flow then PI heads. Meaning npi are better for NA and PI are better for superchargers. But in the end FRPP heads fully ported eat both, while being part of the family of 96-98 GT head port matching.
Why go NA for more when for less you can be blown? Originality! Look a blown stang oh you don't see those, oh wait blown stangs are a dime a dozen. Oh look, 400+ NA stang 4.6 bored to 5.0, sick. I've been researching NA motor upgrade for some time now and well going blown would be to easy.
08-31-2007, 06:30 PM
#27
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location:
Posts: 2,441
RE: Engine combo
ORIGINAL: paynecasey69
2002GTAutoVert
Here is a link for you. Just have to wade through all the smack talk.
http://forums.modulardepot.com/4-6l-...-npi-data.html
The link has actual flow numbers of Npi vs PI heads. Also note that while in stock form PI heads flow more CFM but during a full race port the heads flow almost identical. And actually the Intake flow of PI have a slightly betterExhaust flow, while the NPI have a slightly better Intake flow then PI heads. Meaning npi are better for NA and PI are better for superchargers. But in the end FRPP heads fully ported eat both, while being part of the family of 96-98 GT head port matching.
Why go NA for more when for less you can be blown? Originality! Look a blown stang oh you don't see those, oh wait blown stangs are a dime a dozen. Oh look, 400+ NA stang 4.6 bored to 5.0, sick. I've been researching NA motor upgrade for some time now and well going blown would be to easy.
2002GTAutoVert
Here is a link for you. Just have to wade through all the smack talk.
http://forums.modulardepot.com/4-6l-...-npi-data.html
The link has actual flow numbers of Npi vs PI heads. Also note that while in stock form PI heads flow more CFM but during a full race port the heads flow almost identical. And actually the Intake flow of PI have a slightly betterExhaust flow, while the NPI have a slightly better Intake flow then PI heads. Meaning npi are better for NA and PI are better for superchargers. But in the end FRPP heads fully ported eat both, while being part of the family of 96-98 GT head port matching.
Why go NA for more when for less you can be blown? Originality! Look a blown stang oh you don't see those, oh wait blown stangs are a dime a dozen. Oh look, 400+ NA stang 4.6 bored to 5.0, sick. I've been researching NA motor upgrade for some time now and well going blown would be to easy.
08-31-2007, 08:55 PM
#28
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12,575
RE: Engine combo
ORIGINAL: paynecasey69
By adding PI heads to a stock short block will result in 10.3:1 compression on a 96-98 GT.
Helpful links for you guys behind on SOHC heads.
http://www.sn95forums.com/forum/index.php?topic=116.0Edit < s n9 5 f o r u m s .com
Its not the heads on the 99-04 that make them better its the PI cam and intake. The heads just add compression.
Steeds sells the FRPP heads I'm talking about The heads alone keeping the stock npi cam are 35 hp more then on a stock 96-98. Add the FRPP intake which the Bullit intake in modeled after and you get another 35 hp. For a total of 70 hp.
http://www.steeda.com/products/ford_...nder_heads.php
PI heads for sale, notice they don't brag about a power increase. Because like the above article stated its the PI CAM and PI Intake that are the power difference for 96-98 GT to 99+.
http://www.steeda.com/products/ford_...inder_head.php
Notice at Livernois they sell the PI intake shaved with an adapter so the ports on the 98 tear drop match the 99+ square port design. And they promise 35rwhp. So lets see 35rwhp is like 42 fwhp. 42 + 225 = 267 hp. Which goes to show the 96-98 heads are not crap.
http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/product.phtml?p=457
So lets get this straight, PI heads can only had 10 hp by compression alone; however, FRPP heads can add 35 hp. So with that being said FRPP > PI heads. And if flat top pistons went in a new short block then FRPP 35 hp + 10 hp to a 45 hp gain.
Factory FRPP heads flow at the intake around 205 cfm too which is a PI head with a stage 1 port and polish from most places so it takes a minor port job on PI heads to even match FRPP heads.
Why would I want to hold my self back with PI, when with FRPP Heads, Intake, and a street cam I can net 100 hp while keeping the factory compression and with no port work. I could get a short block with flat top pistons and gain 10 hp that I would have gotten from the PI swap for a total of 110 hp. Port and polish the FRPP for maybe another 50 hp making it 160 gain, and get a big bore short block for another 50 hp. 210 hp gain over my 215 not including my bolt on's. I'm not intirely sure the max hp you can gain from ported and polished FRPP heads but i'm sure its much nicer then ported and polished PI heads. But will leave it at 50 hp.
215 hp 96 GT
210 hp block (big bore, flat top pistons, FRPP heads ported way past 240 cfm's, FRPP intake, nice street cam)
35 hp in the mods I already have
460 hp 1996 Mustang GT, with a 15 loss to the wheels 391 rwhp.
So please don't toss PI is better at me. I'm not new in the Ford World, no offence.
By adding PI heads to a stock short block will result in 10.3:1 compression on a 96-98 GT.
Helpful links for you guys behind on SOHC heads.
http://www.sn95forums.com/forum/index.php?topic=116.0Edit < s n9 5 f o r u m s .com
Its not the heads on the 99-04 that make them better its the PI cam and intake. The heads just add compression.
Steeds sells the FRPP heads I'm talking about The heads alone keeping the stock npi cam are 35 hp more then on a stock 96-98. Add the FRPP intake which the Bullit intake in modeled after and you get another 35 hp. For a total of 70 hp.
http://www.steeda.com/products/ford_...nder_heads.php
PI heads for sale, notice they don't brag about a power increase. Because like the above article stated its the PI CAM and PI Intake that are the power difference for 96-98 GT to 99+.
http://www.steeda.com/products/ford_...inder_head.php
Notice at Livernois they sell the PI intake shaved with an adapter so the ports on the 98 tear drop match the 99+ square port design. And they promise 35rwhp. So lets see 35rwhp is like 42 fwhp. 42 + 225 = 267 hp. Which goes to show the 96-98 heads are not crap.
http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/product.phtml?p=457
So lets get this straight, PI heads can only had 10 hp by compression alone; however, FRPP heads can add 35 hp. So with that being said FRPP > PI heads. And if flat top pistons went in a new short block then FRPP 35 hp + 10 hp to a 45 hp gain.
Factory FRPP heads flow at the intake around 205 cfm too which is a PI head with a stage 1 port and polish from most places so it takes a minor port job on PI heads to even match FRPP heads.
Why would I want to hold my self back with PI, when with FRPP Heads, Intake, and a street cam I can net 100 hp while keeping the factory compression and with no port work. I could get a short block with flat top pistons and gain 10 hp that I would have gotten from the PI swap for a total of 110 hp. Port and polish the FRPP for maybe another 50 hp making it 160 gain, and get a big bore short block for another 50 hp. 210 hp gain over my 215 not including my bolt on's. I'm not intirely sure the max hp you can gain from ported and polished FRPP heads but i'm sure its much nicer then ported and polished PI heads. But will leave it at 50 hp.
215 hp 96 GT
210 hp block (big bore, flat top pistons, FRPP heads ported way past 240 cfm's, FRPP intake, nice street cam)
35 hp in the mods I already have
460 hp 1996 Mustang GT, with a 15 loss to the wheels 391 rwhp.
So please don't toss PI is better at me. I'm not new in the Ford World, no offence.
In any case, take a stock PI shortblock, add NPI heads, and a PI cam and intake and it will make less power than a stock PI motor. The compression in the 99-04 GTs is no greater stock than the NPI stuff. You will see some gains on a PI swapped car from the compression, but its nothing to write home about.
Put it this way, put a NPI motor with a PI Swap into a car, and then setup another car exactly the same but with a stock PI motor, and you won't be able to tell any real difference.
Edit: Ported PI heads also flow as good/better than ported NPI heads.
09-01-2007, 03:35 AM
#29
1st Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 77
RE: Engine combo
At least we agree on costs. It will cost alot.
$4500 Big-Bore short block
$1800 FRPP heads
$1000 Port & Polish work
$500 to $2000 Intakes to choose from
But with a supeer charger you still have to buy a nice block and most superchargers are around 4 to 5,000 dollars. So really its not much more expensive.
$4500 Big-Bore short block
$1800 FRPP heads
$1000 Port & Polish work
$500 to $2000 Intakes to choose from
But with a supeer charger you still have to buy a nice block and most superchargers are around 4 to 5,000 dollars. So really its not much more expensive.
09-01-2007, 03:53 AM
#30
1st Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 77
RE: Engine combo
ORIGINAL: 2000GT4.6
Stock PI heads flow much better than stock NPI heads. The increase in compression when swapping from NPI to PI is not THAT great to increase the power that much.
In any case, take a stock PI shortblock, add NPI heads, and a PI cam and intake and it will make less power than a stock PI motor. The compression in the 99-04 GTs is no greater stock than the NPI stuff. You will see some gains on a PI swapped car from the compression, but its nothing to write home about.
Put it this way, put a NPI motor with a PI Swap into a car, and then setup another car exactly the same but with a stock PI motor, and you won't be able to tell any real difference.
Edit: Ported PI heads also flow as good/better than ported NPI heads.
ORIGINAL: paynecasey69
By adding PI heads to a stock short block will result in 10.3:1 compression on a 96-98 GT.
Helpful links for you guys behind on SOHC heads.
http://www.sn95forums.com/forum/index.php?topic=116.0Edit < s n9 5 f o r u m s .com
Its not the heads on the 99-04 that make them better its the PI cam and intake. The heads just add compression.
Steeds sells the FRPP heads I'm talking about The heads alone keeping the stock npi cam are 35 hp more then on a stock 96-98. Add the FRPP intake which the Bullit intake in modeled after and you get another 35 hp. For a total of 70 hp.
http://www.steeda.com/products/ford_...nder_heads.php
PI heads for sale, notice they don't brag about a power increase. Because like the above article stated its the PI CAM and PI Intake that are the power difference for 96-98 GT to 99+.
http://www.steeda.com/products/ford_...inder_head.php
Notice at Livernois they sell the PI intake shaved with an adapter so the ports on the 98 tear drop match the 99+ square port design. And they promise 35rwhp. So lets see 35rwhp is like 42 fwhp. 42 + 225 = 267 hp. Which goes to show the 96-98 heads are not crap.
http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/product.phtml?p=457
So lets get this straight, PI heads can only had 10 hp by compression alone; however, FRPP heads can add 35 hp. So with that being said FRPP > PI heads. And if flat top pistons went in a new short block then FRPP 35 hp + 10 hp to a 45 hp gain.
Factory FRPP heads flow at the intake around 205 cfm too which is a PI head with a stage 1 port and polish from most places so it takes a minor port job on PI heads to even match FRPP heads.
Why would I want to hold my self back with PI, when with FRPP Heads, Intake, and a street cam I can net 100 hp while keeping the factory compression and with no port work. I could get a short block with flat top pistons and gain 10 hp that I would have gotten from the PI swap for a total of 110 hp. Port and polish the FRPP for maybe another 50 hp making it 160 gain, and get a big bore short block for another 50 hp. 210 hp gain over my 215 not including my bolt on's. I'm not intirely sure the max hp you can gain from ported and polished FRPP heads but i'm sure its much nicer then ported and polished PI heads. But will leave it at 50 hp.
215 hp 96 GT
210 hp block (big bore, flat top pistons, FRPP heads ported way past 240 cfm's, FRPP intake, nice street cam)
35 hp in the mods I already have
460 hp 1996 Mustang GT, with a 15 loss to the wheels 391 rwhp.
So please don't toss PI is better at me. I'm not new in the Ford World, no offence.
By adding PI heads to a stock short block will result in 10.3:1 compression on a 96-98 GT.
Helpful links for you guys behind on SOHC heads.
http://www.sn95forums.com/forum/index.php?topic=116.0Edit < s n9 5 f o r u m s .com
Its not the heads on the 99-04 that make them better its the PI cam and intake. The heads just add compression.
Steeds sells the FRPP heads I'm talking about The heads alone keeping the stock npi cam are 35 hp more then on a stock 96-98. Add the FRPP intake which the Bullit intake in modeled after and you get another 35 hp. For a total of 70 hp.
http://www.steeda.com/products/ford_...nder_heads.php
PI heads for sale, notice they don't brag about a power increase. Because like the above article stated its the PI CAM and PI Intake that are the power difference for 96-98 GT to 99+.
http://www.steeda.com/products/ford_...inder_head.php
Notice at Livernois they sell the PI intake shaved with an adapter so the ports on the 98 tear drop match the 99+ square port design. And they promise 35rwhp. So lets see 35rwhp is like 42 fwhp. 42 + 225 = 267 hp. Which goes to show the 96-98 heads are not crap.
http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/product.phtml?p=457
So lets get this straight, PI heads can only had 10 hp by compression alone; however, FRPP heads can add 35 hp. So with that being said FRPP > PI heads. And if flat top pistons went in a new short block then FRPP 35 hp + 10 hp to a 45 hp gain.
Factory FRPP heads flow at the intake around 205 cfm too which is a PI head with a stage 1 port and polish from most places so it takes a minor port job on PI heads to even match FRPP heads.
Why would I want to hold my self back with PI, when with FRPP Heads, Intake, and a street cam I can net 100 hp while keeping the factory compression and with no port work. I could get a short block with flat top pistons and gain 10 hp that I would have gotten from the PI swap for a total of 110 hp. Port and polish the FRPP for maybe another 50 hp making it 160 gain, and get a big bore short block for another 50 hp. 210 hp gain over my 215 not including my bolt on's. I'm not intirely sure the max hp you can gain from ported and polished FRPP heads but i'm sure its much nicer then ported and polished PI heads. But will leave it at 50 hp.
215 hp 96 GT
210 hp block (big bore, flat top pistons, FRPP heads ported way past 240 cfm's, FRPP intake, nice street cam)
35 hp in the mods I already have
460 hp 1996 Mustang GT, with a 15 loss to the wheels 391 rwhp.
So please don't toss PI is better at me. I'm not new in the Ford World, no offence.
In any case, take a stock PI shortblock, add NPI heads, and a PI cam and intake and it will make less power than a stock PI motor. The compression in the 99-04 GTs is no greater stock than the NPI stuff. You will see some gains on a PI swapped car from the compression, but its nothing to write home about.
Put it this way, put a NPI motor with a PI Swap into a car, and then setup another car exactly the same but with a stock PI motor, and you won't be able to tell any real difference.
Edit: Ported PI heads also flow as good/better than ported NPI heads.
http://forums.modulardepot.com/4-6l-...-npi-data.html
Here's the flow numbers(averaged at the lift points)for the last 3 sets of NPI's that Renegade ported:
[ul][*]Lift..............Intake................Exhaust
.100"--------- 67----------------62
.200"---------120----------------97
.300----------165---------------137
.400----------193---------------152
.500----------210---------------164
.600----------222---------------175 [/ul]
and from his last 3 or 4 sets of PI's(averaged again)
[ul][*]Lift..............Intake................Exhaust
.100"--------- 64----------------52
.200"---------116----------------94
.300----------162---------------130
.400----------192---------------160
.500----------213---------------178
.600----------217---------------185[/ul]
As we see here NPI beats PI in intake flow when fully ported. But the PI's do have better exhaust flow. Now, correct me if I'm wrong but this thread was about FRPP heads that fit 96-98 GT's. FRPP heads flow around 205 intake at .500 lift. So it takes tons of port work on both NPI and PI to even barely beat a FRPP head. Hmm, I can't image the flow chart on a fully ported FRPP head. Haven't seen one in a while but I remember results like 250 intake cfm etc or 260.
95% of the gain from swapping from npi to pi heads with no modifications is compression increase resulting in 8 to 12 hp. The real gains are in the Intake and Cams.
When it comes to compression 96-98 GT's are night and day to 99-04 GT's in head piston diameter. 96-98 GT pistons are much flater then 99-04 GT pistons. Yet, both cars carry in stock form about the same compression. How is this possible? The heads are also different. 96-98 GT heads have a bigger chamber to help lower the compression on their flatter pistons. 99-04 GT heads have a smaller chamber to makeup for the dish in the 99-04 GT pistons. Now take a flatter piston setup from the 96-98 GT, and mate it with the smaller chamber of the 99-04 GT's and whame o 10.3:1 Compression.
But to back up your statement on flow, I'd like to see some charts. And yes I know in stock form they flow better.
