daily driver in the 11s or 12s
03-02-2005, 02:31 AM
#41
5th Gear Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 2,129
RE: daily driver in the 11s or 12s
ORIGINAL: 2000GT4.6
You don't need an aftermarket block to handle that much power. Hell MM&FF was running
540 RWHP on the STOCK ROTATING ASSEMBLY! That was with a supercharger/heads setup. I don't think they have swapped out the block yet, and they are now well over 600 RWHP.
In any case, I see no reason to be forced to upgrade anything else other than the clutch on a 450 RWHP car. I only made the point about 600+ to show how close the car was to a total monster (and how far away the N/A setup is). MD isn't running different brakes. In fact, even with SLICKS he is still running the stock clutch (I admit he says its slipping). I think he said he spent about 100 bucks on his rearend to make it capable of handling his slicks, and he didn't bother till he pulled the D/Rs off. (in other words, 425 RWHP with a stock rear end and brakes). Sure, he has some supension work done, but it is only for launching with the slicks. On the street your not gonna need to pull the front tires off the ground anyway.
I cannot honestly beileve you are saying you would rather have a 301 RWHP car than a 400 RWHP car with a blower. Sure it would be nice to have some upgraded brakes etc, but the same thing can be said for the N/A car. The same for the suspension and rearend. Your gonna be forced to run slicks to make any good times with that N/A setup. And once again, in the end you are still gonna have all of this stuff done to a car that STILL wont outrun a blower car.
I don't have a blower either, but I can tell ya that if anyone let me have the chance to start over again with the money I have spent a ATI would be sitting atop the car, and my car would be a ton faster.
ORIGINAL: BCisme
what about the rest of the car? you don't honestly think your clutch will last with that much power do you? 600 rwhp on a factory block is suicide, you need an aftermarket shortblock. what about the rear end? brakes? suspension? i'd rather have my car over a bolt on blower car. that's why i have it. there's no point in having all that power if your car isnt built to handle it.
you need to take in the big picture before making comparisons like that.
ORIGINAL: 2000GT4.6
ATI Procharger Ps1c w/ intercooler kit (8-10-12 PSI) 4000
Stock PI heads/intake 700 (not sure on the price here once again, simply added 200 to above)
Camshafts: 500
Springs: 200
Exaust: 1200 (see above)
Tune with new chip: 500
Ok ok, so im 50 bucks above the other one. (grand total of 7100) I am also sitting on over 450 RWHP. This car is going to do a disapearing act on the above one in any race. (street/strip). Not to mention, we are a mere 1400 bucks away (a new bottom end) from looking at 600+ at the rear wheels.
Simply put, unless you are made of money or simply have a fetish for N/A cars, its just not worth it. And we are competely ignoring that even just the ATI procharger kit on a otherwise STOCK SN-95 will still make over 350 RWHP (you should be able to crank the boost to 10 psi and not worry about the bottom end with a good tune).
This is not even mentioning that the 7100 dollar car will be x2 as streetable, and make a crapton more torque down low (your gonna make jack for torque with the cam/headwork you need to make even 350 RWHP peak).
Life sucks. If you wanna go n/a, go for a 347, or better yet a stroked 351. 281 CI just isnt cutting it.
ATI Procharger Ps1c w/ intercooler kit (8-10-12 PSI) 4000
Stock PI heads/intake 700 (not sure on the price here once again, simply added 200 to above)
Camshafts: 500
Springs: 200
Exaust: 1200 (see above)
Tune with new chip: 500
Ok ok, so im 50 bucks above the other one. (grand total of 7100) I am also sitting on over 450 RWHP. This car is going to do a disapearing act on the above one in any race. (street/strip). Not to mention, we are a mere 1400 bucks away (a new bottom end) from looking at 600+ at the rear wheels.
Simply put, unless you are made of money or simply have a fetish for N/A cars, its just not worth it. And we are competely ignoring that even just the ATI procharger kit on a otherwise STOCK SN-95 will still make over 350 RWHP (you should be able to crank the boost to 10 psi and not worry about the bottom end with a good tune).
This is not even mentioning that the 7100 dollar car will be x2 as streetable, and make a crapton more torque down low (your gonna make jack for torque with the cam/headwork you need to make even 350 RWHP peak).
Life sucks. If you wanna go n/a, go for a 347, or better yet a stroked 351. 281 CI just isnt cutting it.
what about the rest of the car? you don't honestly think your clutch will last with that much power do you? 600 rwhp on a factory block is suicide, you need an aftermarket shortblock. what about the rear end? brakes? suspension? i'd rather have my car over a bolt on blower car. that's why i have it. there's no point in having all that power if your car isnt built to handle it.
you need to take in the big picture before making comparisons like that.
540 RWHP on the STOCK ROTATING ASSEMBLY! That was with a supercharger/heads setup. I don't think they have swapped out the block yet, and they are now well over 600 RWHP.
In any case, I see no reason to be forced to upgrade anything else other than the clutch on a 450 RWHP car. I only made the point about 600+ to show how close the car was to a total monster (and how far away the N/A setup is). MD isn't running different brakes. In fact, even with SLICKS he is still running the stock clutch (I admit he says its slipping). I think he said he spent about 100 bucks on his rearend to make it capable of handling his slicks, and he didn't bother till he pulled the D/Rs off. (in other words, 425 RWHP with a stock rear end and brakes). Sure, he has some supension work done, but it is only for launching with the slicks. On the street your not gonna need to pull the front tires off the ground anyway.
I cannot honestly beileve you are saying you would rather have a 301 RWHP car than a 400 RWHP car with a blower. Sure it would be nice to have some upgraded brakes etc, but the same thing can be said for the N/A car. The same for the suspension and rearend. Your gonna be forced to run slicks to make any good times with that N/A setup. And once again, in the end you are still gonna have all of this stuff done to a car that STILL wont outrun a blower car.
I don't have a blower either, but I can tell ya that if anyone let me have the chance to start over again with the money I have spent a ATI would be sitting atop the car, and my car would be a ton faster.
you can't just bolt on a blower and go. blower cars are a lot of maintenance, almost everyone i know who has one carries extra belts, has had many reliability problems with them etc. i'm sorry, but on a daily driver i'm just not taking that chance. some people go years without problems. some poeple don't make it a week. my car's been beat on for over 100K, and still runs well of the stock block. i deal wih high mielage issues, and thats about it. i'm yet to blow anything.
alot of people go with bolt on s/c cars. it's a great way to make good power. and it's not too pricey. my main point is, it's not as easy and trouble free as you are making it out to be.
ORIGINAL: dc_mann8
just slap on a turbo and call it a day.
just slap on a turbo and call it a day.
03-02-2005, 04:20 AM
#42
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12,575
RE: daily driver in the 11s or 12s
The point of this whole thing is that a N/A car that has much more done to it than yours (boltons/cams/portwork) isn't going to be increadibly reialble or streetable either. You have reached the point where the cost is rising incredilbly fast compared to the payback in performance.
The entire point of this thread was that he wanted to know how to approach a 11-12 second daily driver. You are not going to have an 11 second daily driver with a N/A car that is streetable, espcially without major modifications to the suspension and rearend. You cannot honstly tell me that if you had to have a 2V car running 11s with an acutal street radial tire (not a 75 mile "drag radial") that your going with an N/A setup. Its more expensive, it requires more work to the car overall, and its going to be about as streetable as a 1100 horsepower big block in a pinto.
I think someone has scared you away from blowers, but there is absolutly no reason that a 4.6 cannot live a long and healthy life with a 8psi 425 RWHP setup. All that is required is a proper tune and the proper maintence.
Sure, if you beat the crap outta the car every day its gonna start having problems with the drivetrain, but when is this not true? If I beat on my stock 88 thunderbird everyday I have no doubts about what will happen in the future. The same can be said for any car.
The entire point of this thread was that he wanted to know how to approach a 11-12 second daily driver. You are not going to have an 11 second daily driver with a N/A car that is streetable, espcially without major modifications to the suspension and rearend. You cannot honstly tell me that if you had to have a 2V car running 11s with an acutal street radial tire (not a 75 mile "drag radial") that your going with an N/A setup. Its more expensive, it requires more work to the car overall, and its going to be about as streetable as a 1100 horsepower big block in a pinto.
I think someone has scared you away from blowers, but there is absolutly no reason that a 4.6 cannot live a long and healthy life with a 8psi 425 RWHP setup. All that is required is a proper tune and the proper maintence.
Sure, if you beat the crap outta the car every day its gonna start having problems with the drivetrain, but when is this not true? If I beat on my stock 88 thunderbird everyday I have no doubts about what will happen in the future. The same can be said for any car.
03-02-2005, 04:59 AM
#43
5th Gear Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 2,129
RE: daily driver in the 11s or 12s
ORIGINAL: 2000GT4.6
The point of this whole thing is that a N/A car that has much more done to it than yours (boltons/cams/portwork) isn't going to be increadibly reialble or streetable either. You have reached the point where the cost is rising incredilbly fast compared to the payback in performance.
The entire point of this thread was that he wanted to know how to approach a 11-12 second daily driver. You are not going to have an 11 second daily driver with a N/A car that is streetable, espcially without major modifications to the suspension and rearend. You cannot honstly tell me that if you had to have a 2V car running 11s with an acutal street radial tire (not a 75 mile "drag radial") that your going with an N/A setup. Its more expensive, it requires more work to the car overall, and its going to be about as streetable as a 1100 horsepower big block in a pinto.
I think someone has scared you away from blowers, but there is absolutly no reason that a 4.6 cannot live a long and healthy life with a 8psi 425 RWHP setup. All that is required is a proper tune and the proper maintence.
Sure, if you beat the crap outta the car every day its gonna start having problems with the drivetrain, but when is this not true? If I beat on my stock 88 thunderbird everyday I have no doubts about what will happen in the future. The same can be said for any car.
The point of this whole thing is that a N/A car that has much more done to it than yours (boltons/cams/portwork) isn't going to be increadibly reialble or streetable either. You have reached the point where the cost is rising incredilbly fast compared to the payback in performance.
The entire point of this thread was that he wanted to know how to approach a 11-12 second daily driver. You are not going to have an 11 second daily driver with a N/A car that is streetable, espcially without major modifications to the suspension and rearend. You cannot honstly tell me that if you had to have a 2V car running 11s with an acutal street radial tire (not a 75 mile "drag radial") that your going with an N/A setup. Its more expensive, it requires more work to the car overall, and its going to be about as streetable as a 1100 horsepower big block in a pinto.
I think someone has scared you away from blowers, but there is absolutly no reason that a 4.6 cannot live a long and healthy life with a 8psi 425 RWHP setup. All that is required is a proper tune and the proper maintence.
Sure, if you beat the crap outta the car every day its gonna start having problems with the drivetrain, but when is this not true? If I beat on my stock 88 thunderbird everyday I have no doubts about what will happen in the future. The same can be said for any car.
and if you'd read my post you'd see that i stated many cars last for years, and some less than a week. just dont expect to bolt on and go. it takes proper tuning and maintenance, something you failed to mention until after i did.
this is not a flame war, you have made many good points. just don't forget to tell people to be prepared to spend money above and beyond the cost of the s/c kit after the fact to keep it on the road.
unless of course, you sell them for a living.
03-02-2005, 01:54 PM
#44
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12,575
RE: daily driver in the 11s or 12s
ORIGINAL: BCisme
first of all, no one has scared me away from blowers. you say that to me like i don't know anything about them first hand. i told you before i'm building this car n/a for now. i'll probably build my shortblock for boost (when i do it) but for now i want to get it down into the low 12's N/A.
and if you'd read my post you'd see that i stated many cars last for years, and some less than a week. just dont expect to bolt on and go. it takes proper tuning and maintenance, something you failed to mention until after i did.
this is not a flame war, you have made many good points. just don't forget to tell people to be prepared to spend money above and beyond the cost of the s/c kit after the fact to keep it on the road.
unless of course, you sell them for a living.
ORIGINAL: 2000GT4.6
The point of this whole thing is that a N/A car that has much more done to it than yours (boltons/cams/portwork) isn't going to be increadibly reialble or streetable either. You have reached the point where the cost is rising incredilbly fast compared to the payback in performance.
The entire point of this thread was that he wanted to know how to approach a 11-12 second daily driver. You are not going to have an 11 second daily driver with a N/A car that is streetable, espcially without major modifications to the suspension and rearend. You cannot honstly tell me that if you had to have a 2V car running 11s with an acutal street radial tire (not a 75 mile "drag radial") that your going with an N/A setup. Its more expensive, it requires more work to the car overall, and its going to be about as streetable as a 1100 horsepower big block in a pinto.
I think someone has scared you away from blowers, but there is absolutly no reason that a 4.6 cannot live a long and healthy life with a 8psi 425 RWHP setup. All that is required is a proper tune and the proper maintence.
Sure, if you beat the crap outta the car every day its gonna start having problems with the drivetrain, but when is this not true? If I beat on my stock 88 thunderbird everyday I have no doubts about what will happen in the future. The same can be said for any car.
The point of this whole thing is that a N/A car that has much more done to it than yours (boltons/cams/portwork) isn't going to be increadibly reialble or streetable either. You have reached the point where the cost is rising incredilbly fast compared to the payback in performance.
The entire point of this thread was that he wanted to know how to approach a 11-12 second daily driver. You are not going to have an 11 second daily driver with a N/A car that is streetable, espcially without major modifications to the suspension and rearend. You cannot honstly tell me that if you had to have a 2V car running 11s with an acutal street radial tire (not a 75 mile "drag radial") that your going with an N/A setup. Its more expensive, it requires more work to the car overall, and its going to be about as streetable as a 1100 horsepower big block in a pinto.
I think someone has scared you away from blowers, but there is absolutly no reason that a 4.6 cannot live a long and healthy life with a 8psi 425 RWHP setup. All that is required is a proper tune and the proper maintence.
Sure, if you beat the crap outta the car every day its gonna start having problems with the drivetrain, but when is this not true? If I beat on my stock 88 thunderbird everyday I have no doubts about what will happen in the future. The same can be said for any car.
and if you'd read my post you'd see that i stated many cars last for years, and some less than a week. just dont expect to bolt on and go. it takes proper tuning and maintenance, something you failed to mention until after i did.
this is not a flame war, you have made many good points. just don't forget to tell people to be prepared to spend money above and beyond the cost of the s/c kit after the fact to keep it on the road.
unless of course, you sell them for a living.
Im only saying that a N/A setup on a 2v is really only practical until about 300 RWHP, and then its time for some boost of some type.
03-03-2005, 12:40 AM
#46
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Anaheim, CA
Posts: 616
RE: daily driver in the 11s or 12s
Kenne Bell s/c will get the power. DRs and suspension will get the power down the road. 8-9 psi will work on the stock block. More requires a built motor. Head work makes good power too.
Speed co$t$ money, how fast do you want to go?
Speed co$t$ money, how fast do you want to go?
03-03-2005, 02:51 AM
#47
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12,575
RE: daily driver in the 11s or 12s
I just wanted to say that I didn't mean any of this to sound like a flame or a personal attack. I was just debating my position with my usual agressiveness. I hope I didnt **** ya off BC, as that was not my intention.
On the forums I honestly want to help people, because I have recived bad advice before, and it has cost me quite a bit of money and time. I honestly beileve the best way to go is FI, but I respect N/A cars as well. I would love to see my dyno numbers hit 300 RWHP.
On the forums I honestly want to help people, because I have recived bad advice before, and it has cost me quite a bit of money and time. I honestly beileve the best way to go is FI, but I respect N/A cars as well. I would love to see my dyno numbers hit 300 RWHP.
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