Headers question...an still tryin to get answer to my other one
05-07-2005, 06:03 AM
#1
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Join Date: May 2005
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Headers question...an still tryin to get answer to my other one
Lookin for some headers, however, me being a noob to cars in general, dont know which kind to get? Dont know if I need to match them with the exhaust I have on? Which is flowmaster btw...i think. Came with car. Can anyone help?
Also, will a 1600 watt amp blow the stock speakers on the MACH 460 systeM?
Also, will a 1600 watt amp blow the stock speakers on the MACH 460 systeM?
05-07-2005, 10:14 AM
#2
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Join Date: Oct 2004
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Posts: 485
RE: Headers question...an still tryin to get answer to my other one
Question #2
There is no way you are talking 1600 watts RMS, if you are, than you will kill them. I have seen amps labeled as 1600 watts that were 4 channel amps but if you checked the specs they were under 200 watts per channel. Something like that might be alright if you adjust it properly and have a decent head unit. Distortion can blow speakers even if it's within the rated power levels, but you can overdrive a speaker a bit if it's a clean signal. Always compare amps based on RMS watts!!
Question #1
Shorty headers are the only ones that will bolt up to a stock (or stock style) mid pipe, so unless you want to change your mid pipe too you'll have to stick with shorties.
Now a word of caution...
You have not said what kind of mods you have, but .....
A few months ago in 5.0 Magazine they tested a set of the BBK short tubes and lost horsepower and torque below 4000RPM (where they admitted they can’t afford to lose any) but made more above.
I was wondering if headers would be worth the trouble, but after reading that article I'll wait until I have a few mods that will benefit from the headers, because we all know the 4.6 is can not afford to lose any more torque! I do 99.7% of my driving below 4000RPM, so I would have lost power 99.7% of the time [>:] How often do you cruise at over 4000RPM?
Here is what it did on the dyno after the header install
Peak HP before 237
after 242
Total peak gain 5
Peak TQ before 274
after 276
Total TQ gain 2
Hardly seems worth it on a basicly stock GT
But anyone that knows anything knows peak numbers mean nothing at all
so here is the curve.
RPM HP TQ
2400 -4 +2
2600 -3 +3
2800 -4 +1
3000 -5 +0
3200 -7 -4
3400 -8 -5
3600 -10 -7
3800 -7 -3
4000 -5 -0
4200 -3 +2
4400 -1 +5
4600 +2 +9
4800 +5 +11
5000 +5 +11
5200 +6 +11
5400 +6 +10
5600 +7 +10
5800 +7 +9
That's the problem, the HP is getting moved to were I will not use it, give me something to get some more grunt down low where the 2v needs it and I would be all over it, but you can see it hurt the car below 4000RPM which is where I do 99% of my driving.
All I am saying is I can't see dropping all that cash for headers, and going through the PITA that it is to install them just to lose power where I will use it..Even if I were to gain 10HP across the board, I'm not sure it's worth the hassle and cost ($399 plus labor) to do it, untill there was nothing left to do, 10HP is debatable whether or not it would be felt in the SOTP.
On a car with a few bolt ons I'm sure the numbers would look better, butthe car tested already had an X-pipe, Cat back, and CAI, and it looks like you'll need a bit more than that to get the most out of the headers. If you had some head work, cams, or forced induction, I'm sure it would help a lot. Just not for me at this point in time
If it was me I would throw some 4.10's in your car and have done something you can feel... and probably have some money left over.
There is no way you are talking 1600 watts RMS, if you are, than you will kill them. I have seen amps labeled as 1600 watts that were 4 channel amps but if you checked the specs they were under 200 watts per channel. Something like that might be alright if you adjust it properly and have a decent head unit. Distortion can blow speakers even if it's within the rated power levels, but you can overdrive a speaker a bit if it's a clean signal. Always compare amps based on RMS watts!!
Question #1
Shorty headers are the only ones that will bolt up to a stock (or stock style) mid pipe, so unless you want to change your mid pipe too you'll have to stick with shorties.
Now a word of caution...
You have not said what kind of mods you have, but .....
A few months ago in 5.0 Magazine they tested a set of the BBK short tubes and lost horsepower and torque below 4000RPM (where they admitted they can’t afford to lose any) but made more above.
I was wondering if headers would be worth the trouble, but after reading that article I'll wait until I have a few mods that will benefit from the headers, because we all know the 4.6 is can not afford to lose any more torque! I do 99.7% of my driving below 4000RPM, so I would have lost power 99.7% of the time [>:] How often do you cruise at over 4000RPM?
Here is what it did on the dyno after the header install
Peak HP before 237
after 242
Total peak gain 5
Peak TQ before 274
after 276
Total TQ gain 2
Hardly seems worth it on a basicly stock GT
But anyone that knows anything knows peak numbers mean nothing at all
so here is the curve.
RPM HP TQ
2400 -4 +2
2600 -3 +3
2800 -4 +1
3000 -5 +0
3200 -7 -4
3400 -8 -5
3600 -10 -7
3800 -7 -3
4000 -5 -0
4200 -3 +2
4400 -1 +5
4600 +2 +9
4800 +5 +11
5000 +5 +11
5200 +6 +11
5400 +6 +10
5600 +7 +10
5800 +7 +9
That's the problem, the HP is getting moved to were I will not use it, give me something to get some more grunt down low where the 2v needs it and I would be all over it, but you can see it hurt the car below 4000RPM which is where I do 99% of my driving.
All I am saying is I can't see dropping all that cash for headers, and going through the PITA that it is to install them just to lose power where I will use it..Even if I were to gain 10HP across the board, I'm not sure it's worth the hassle and cost ($399 plus labor) to do it, untill there was nothing left to do, 10HP is debatable whether or not it would be felt in the SOTP.
On a car with a few bolt ons I'm sure the numbers would look better, butthe car tested already had an X-pipe, Cat back, and CAI, and it looks like you'll need a bit more than that to get the most out of the headers. If you had some head work, cams, or forced induction, I'm sure it would help a lot. Just not for me at this point in time
If it was me I would throw some 4.10's in your car and have done something you can feel... and probably have some money left over.
05-07-2005, 10:38 AM
#3
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In between Your Mom's Titties, skeet skeet..
Posts: 2,045
RE: Headers question...an still tryin to get answer to my other one
I had asked a similar question a couple weeks ago about headers, and was basically told that L/T's are the best way to go...
In fact, someone had mentioned that you don't lose power w/ the Long tubes, but don't feel as much of a gain, unless you have a few other associated mods.. In fact, for all that it's worth, you might wanna check out the thread...
https://mustangforums.com/m_478044/m.../tm.htm#480680
This details the difficulties in installing, however, I truly believe the gains are worth it.. I had them on my 87 GT, and it was a "seat of the pants" kind of feel.. Not to mention the grunt..
My advice, go Long Tubes, and just finish building your car...
JT
95 Eagle Talon TSi AWD - 12.7 @ 103mph (R.I.P.)
00 Mustang GT - Too Slow to Race, so far....
In fact, someone had mentioned that you don't lose power w/ the Long tubes, but don't feel as much of a gain, unless you have a few other associated mods.. In fact, for all that it's worth, you might wanna check out the thread...
https://mustangforums.com/m_478044/m.../tm.htm#480680
This details the difficulties in installing, however, I truly believe the gains are worth it.. I had them on my 87 GT, and it was a "seat of the pants" kind of feel.. Not to mention the grunt..
My advice, go Long Tubes, and just finish building your car...
JT
95 Eagle Talon TSi AWD - 12.7 @ 103mph (R.I.P.)
00 Mustang GT - Too Slow to Race, so far....
05-07-2005, 05:05 PM
#4
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 289
RE: Headers question...an still tryin to get answer to my other one
I agree with blue. Even my highly modified engine would see little gain in HP to warrant the cost of a GOOD set of headers and the installation. If I had cash to throw around maybe, but I can think of better ways to spend a 1000 dollars on my car and see a lot more hp gain out of it. If you go with an inexpensive set and install yourself, then maybe its worth, maybe not. But you might hurt performance more then help. Just my $.02.
05-07-2005, 05:17 PM
#5
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In between Your Mom's Titties, skeet skeet..
Posts: 2,045
RE: Headers question...an still tryin to get answer to my other one
Well, I suppose it does make a HUGE difference between Long tube and short tube, but I can't imagine it costs $1000 for the Headers and shortened mid-pipe.. In fact, I thought I saw a set of L/T for a 99-04 that were like $450 on E-Bay, and they were Ceramic coated w/ 1 3/4in Flange and a 3in Collector.. Mid pipe would be like another $200..
Just have to look around.. And once you start really putting power to the ground, you don't want your exhaust to be the limiting factor...
JT
95 Eagle Talon TSi AWD - 12.7 @ 103mph (R.I.P.)
00 Mustang GT - Too Slow to Race, so far.....
Just have to look around.. And once you start really putting power to the ground, you don't want your exhaust to be the limiting factor...
JT
95 Eagle Talon TSi AWD - 12.7 @ 103mph (R.I.P.)
00 Mustang GT - Too Slow to Race, so far.....
05-08-2005, 02:58 AM
#6
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Nashville/Knoxville, Tennessee
Posts: 4,687
RE: Headers question...an still tryin to get answer to my other one
ive heard that LT's give like 10 or so rwhp... thats what ive been told. and i heard a new mid pipe gives like 15 rwhp. and my car is pretty well modified. LT headers and a new midpipe are gonna be my next mods.
05-08-2005, 11:03 AM
#7
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location:
Posts: 485
RE: Headers question...an still tryin to get answer to my other one
ORIGINAL: racer02GTstang
ive heard that LT's give like 10 or so rwhp... thats what ive been told. and i heard a new mid pipe gives like 15 rwhp. and my car is pretty well modified. LT headers and a new midpipe are gonna be my next mods.
ive heard that LT's give like 10 or so rwhp... thats what ive been told. and i heard a new mid pipe gives like 15 rwhp. and my car is pretty well modified. LT headers and a new midpipe are gonna be my next mods.
In the new Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords they tested a set of Kooks 1-5/8" LT's and gained 11 HP, and gains were from 2500 up. Much better than shorties, but worth the cost and effort, only you can decide.
They also tested a set of FFRP shorty headers and confirmed my thoughts. They only made 3-4 HP over stock headers on a stock 4.6 and about the same results as the modified 4.6 with BBK's, the gains were only from 4000RPM's up to 4800RPM's and again from 5500RPM's to 5700RPM's
Not worth the time or money unless you have touched cams, or added forced induction.
The sad thing with shorty headers is that, yes the new sound is great, but between the new powerful sound and the few Hp above 4000 RPM people think it helped a bunch when really it feels like they gained more than they did because they lost HP & TQ below 4000. The loss down low and the gain up high will create the feeling you have gained more than you have. [>:]
05-09-2005, 12:11 AM
#8
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Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2005
Location:
Posts: 133
RE: Headers question...an still tryin to get answer to my other one
In response to Blue70, I have a K&N cool air, flowmaster exhaust, and hyperprogrammer chip. Just kind of stuck on what to do next? I heard gears, but im a noob, so dunno what they do or what to get lol.
Now, on my speakers question, 100w x 4 RMS wattage, would that be allright? Want something to give me some bass power, without adding a sub. If any thoughts let me know...
Thanks alot, sorry for being a pest.
Brad
Now, on my speakers question, 100w x 4 RMS wattage, would that be allright? Want something to give me some bass power, without adding a sub. If any thoughts let me know...
Thanks alot, sorry for being a pest.
Brad
05-09-2005, 04:10 AM
#9
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12,575
RE: Headers question...an still tryin to get answer to my other one
ORIGINAL: Blue70
The only things you have performance wise that the car tested above don't have are a Accufab 75mm TB and C&L upper plenum, but I have some good news for you.
In the new Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords they tested a set of Kooks 1-5/8" LT's and gained 11 HP, and gains were from 2500 up. Much better than shorties, but worth the cost and effort, only you can decide.
They also tested a set of FFRP shorty headers and confirmed my thoughts. They only made 3-4 HP over stock headers on a stock 4.6 and about the same results as the modified 4.6 with BBK's, the gains were only from 4000RPM's up to 4800RPM's and again from 5500RPM's to 5700RPM's
Not worth the time or money unless you have touched cams, or added forced induction.
The sad thing with shorty headers is that, yes the new sound is great, but between the new powerful sound and the few Hp above 4000 RPM people think it helped a bunch when really it feels like they gained more than they did because they lost HP & TQ below 4000. The loss down low and the gain up high will create the feeling you have gained more than you have. [>:]
ORIGINAL: racer02GTstang
ive heard that LT's give like 10 or so rwhp... thats what ive been told. and i heard a new mid pipe gives like 15 rwhp. and my car is pretty well modified. LT headers and a new midpipe are gonna be my next mods.
ive heard that LT's give like 10 or so rwhp... thats what ive been told. and i heard a new mid pipe gives like 15 rwhp. and my car is pretty well modified. LT headers and a new midpipe are gonna be my next mods.
In the new Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords they tested a set of Kooks 1-5/8" LT's and gained 11 HP, and gains were from 2500 up. Much better than shorties, but worth the cost and effort, only you can decide.
They also tested a set of FFRP shorty headers and confirmed my thoughts. They only made 3-4 HP over stock headers on a stock 4.6 and about the same results as the modified 4.6 with BBK's, the gains were only from 4000RPM's up to 4800RPM's and again from 5500RPM's to 5700RPM's
Not worth the time or money unless you have touched cams, or added forced induction.
The sad thing with shorty headers is that, yes the new sound is great, but between the new powerful sound and the few Hp above 4000 RPM people think it helped a bunch when really it feels like they gained more than they did because they lost HP & TQ below 4000. The loss down low and the gain up high will create the feeling you have gained more than you have. [>:]
LTs are the only way to go. If you get LTs, you have to get a different midpipe. BBK makes a set of affordable LTs, but if I had it to do over again I would go with a different midpipe.
BTW, Magnaflow>Flowmaster. I was not convinced of the straight thru theory at all until I heard it on a GT. Healthy but unobtrusive at idle, roudy as hell at WOT, whats not to like.
05-09-2005, 10:57 PM
#10
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Nashville/Knoxville, Tennessee
Posts: 4,687
RE: Headers question...an still tryin to get answer to my other one
ORIGINAL: 2000GT4.6
Yeah shorties are totally **** worthless. Most people on the forum have been saying this for awile, I am glad that MM&FF finally did a back to back test to prove it.
LTs are the only way to go. If you get LTs, you have to get a different midpipe. BBK makes a set of affordable LTs, but if I had it to do over again I would go with a different midpipe.
BTW, Magnaflow>Flowmaster. I was not convinced of the straight thru theory at all until I heard it on a GT. Healthy but unobtrusive at idle, roudy as hell at WOT, whats not to like.
ORIGINAL: Blue70
The only things you have performance wise that the car tested above don't have are a Accufab 75mm TB and C&L upper plenum, but I have some good news for you.
In the new Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords they tested a set of Kooks 1-5/8" LT's and gained 11 HP, and gains were from 2500 up. Much better than shorties, but worth the cost and effort, only you can decide.
They also tested a set of FFRP shorty headers and confirmed my thoughts. They only made 3-4 HP over stock headers on a stock 4.6 and about the same results as the modified 4.6 with BBK's, the gains were only from 4000RPM's up to 4800RPM's and again from 5500RPM's to 5700RPM's
Not worth the time or money unless you have touched cams, or added forced induction.
The sad thing with shorty headers is that, yes the new sound is great, but between the new powerful sound and the few Hp above 4000 RPM people think it helped a bunch when really it feels like they gained more than they did because they lost HP & TQ below 4000. The loss down low and the gain up high will create the feeling you have gained more than you have. [>:]
ORIGINAL: racer02GTstang
ive heard that LT's give like 10 or so rwhp... thats what ive been told. and i heard a new mid pipe gives like 15 rwhp. and my car is pretty well modified. LT headers and a new midpipe are gonna be my next mods.
ive heard that LT's give like 10 or so rwhp... thats what ive been told. and i heard a new mid pipe gives like 15 rwhp. and my car is pretty well modified. LT headers and a new midpipe are gonna be my next mods.
In the new Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords they tested a set of Kooks 1-5/8" LT's and gained 11 HP, and gains were from 2500 up. Much better than shorties, but worth the cost and effort, only you can decide.
They also tested a set of FFRP shorty headers and confirmed my thoughts. They only made 3-4 HP over stock headers on a stock 4.6 and about the same results as the modified 4.6 with BBK's, the gains were only from 4000RPM's up to 4800RPM's and again from 5500RPM's to 5700RPM's
Not worth the time or money unless you have touched cams, or added forced induction.
The sad thing with shorty headers is that, yes the new sound is great, but between the new powerful sound and the few Hp above 4000 RPM people think it helped a bunch when really it feels like they gained more than they did because they lost HP & TQ below 4000. The loss down low and the gain up high will create the feeling you have gained more than you have. [>:]
LTs are the only way to go. If you get LTs, you have to get a different midpipe. BBK makes a set of affordable LTs, but if I had it to do over again I would go with a different midpipe.
BTW, Magnaflow>Flowmaster. I was not convinced of the straight thru theory at all until I heard it on a GT. Healthy but unobtrusive at idle, roudy as hell at WOT, whats not to like.
yea, i think the borla's are straight through too... really deep loud tone about 3500 rpm and up. love the sound from them.. i cant wait till i get long tubes and a shorter mid pipe for my car. i really want more power!!!
what all will i need for the header/mid pipe set up... im going with a high flow cat X pipe for the mid pipe.... what is the most affordable brand that is a good price and good gains? i want ceramic coated headers. are the BBK headers and BBK high flow X pipe the best set up for me probably since i want to stay with cats? what other stuff am i gonna need for my 02 sensors? do i need like extensions or anything... and can you show me a set so i can find them on ebay or something?
sheino, do either gears or finish the exhuast. exhuast will sound good, gears will give you good pull. i love my new gears, i get in the power range much easier than before. just much better overall... and the gears will be cheaper than the headers/mid pipe.