PATS issue? Fuel Flooding? WTH! Help!
03-26-2011, 04:12 PM
#1
4th Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,231
PATS issue? Fuel Flooding? WTH! Help!
ok... So last year, I went to put my mustang away in storage and ending up hearing a ticking sound from my motor while I was driving there, then the car died, wouldn't start. Had the car towed to my mom's garage, and the car ending up starting for a few minutes, no ticking, ran rough, then died. I noticed the tps had a screw missing, found out that the screw fell off. Put the screw back on... Forward to about a month ago, and had issues with the battery having dirty posts as I was getting a ticking coming from the trunk. Did some research and it showed the ccrm was possibly bad. Cleaned the battery, ticking went away in the trunk, still wouldn't start.
I hooked up my predator to the car and noticed the tps was set to .80, fixed the tps, car would start, then die right away. Then the car wouldn't start unless I WOT. Car would start, as soon as I took my foot off the gas the car would die. I did have a theft code (P1260 - Theft Detected, car immobilized). I cleared the code, the car wouldn't start. Checked the spark plugs and they were drenched in fuel. Replaced the plugs and thought the FPS was bad, replaced the FPS and rail, car started then died.
So for now, it looks like the car is flooding out with fuel. if I let the car sit for a day, the car will start the first try, then die. After that it won't start again without WOT.
Now, the theft code came up again (P1260), a buddy said the theft light would flash when starting if pats is bad, it flashed once, then didn't come on when starting. Car started, died, then wouldn't start again.
a buddy of mine thinks it's the PATS system but wouldn't the theft light blink of that's the case? I do have 2 sets of keys and tried both sets. Has anyone been through this as well? I've been doing searches up the ying yang and found people to have had problems with the temp sensor causing the fuel dumping, but the sensor I have is not even 2 years old. I'm so frustrated with the car right now, it's not even funny. if anyone can shed any light, I'd certainly appreciate it.
The car is a 98 gt auto with full bolt on's, with ported pi heads/comp cams, etc.
I hooked up my predator to the car and noticed the tps was set to .80, fixed the tps, car would start, then die right away. Then the car wouldn't start unless I WOT. Car would start, as soon as I took my foot off the gas the car would die. I did have a theft code (P1260 - Theft Detected, car immobilized). I cleared the code, the car wouldn't start. Checked the spark plugs and they were drenched in fuel. Replaced the plugs and thought the FPS was bad, replaced the FPS and rail, car started then died.
So for now, it looks like the car is flooding out with fuel. if I let the car sit for a day, the car will start the first try, then die. After that it won't start again without WOT.
Now, the theft code came up again (P1260), a buddy said the theft light would flash when starting if pats is bad, it flashed once, then didn't come on when starting. Car started, died, then wouldn't start again.
a buddy of mine thinks it's the PATS system but wouldn't the theft light blink of that's the case? I do have 2 sets of keys and tried both sets. Has anyone been through this as well? I've been doing searches up the ying yang and found people to have had problems with the temp sensor causing the fuel dumping, but the sensor I have is not even 2 years old. I'm so frustrated with the car right now, it's not even funny. if anyone can shed any light, I'd certainly appreciate it.
The car is a 98 gt auto with full bolt on's, with ported pi heads/comp cams, etc.
03-28-2011, 08:17 AM
#3
TECH SAVANT
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Saint Augustine, FL
Posts: 10,938
The start/stall on the first start, then no start, is typical of a PATS lockout.
Here are possible causes and diagnostic tips from the shop manual:
Here's how to perform the instrument cluster self test...
Here are possible causes and diagnostic tips from the shop manual:
Here's how to perform the instrument cluster self test...
03-28-2011, 10:39 AM
#5
TECH SAVANT
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Saint Augustine, FL
Posts: 10,938
The type A, B, C and D PATS will let the car run for 1-2 seconds at startup, before it shuts down the fuel delivery. That it seems flooded after repeated tries is odd, however the presence of the P1260 PATS DTC indicates a definite problem with that system.
You are of course correct that it could be an ignition problem, however that it will start and stall after sitting for a bit is typical of a PATS failure/lockout. The flooding could be because of the throttle position at startup, or some other problem.
The OP's '98 should have the type B PATS, which is a standalone module with the transceiver hardwired to the module. It was used on Mustangs only for the 1998 MY. Unfortunately I do not have any PATS schematics for the pre-2000 Mustangs.
Here is one "gotcha" sort of tip regarding the type B, C and D systems:
You are of course correct that it could be an ignition problem, however that it will start and stall after sitting for a bit is typical of a PATS failure/lockout. The flooding could be because of the throttle position at startup, or some other problem.
The OP's '98 should have the type B PATS, which is a standalone module with the transceiver hardwired to the module. It was used on Mustangs only for the 1998 MY. Unfortunately I do not have any PATS schematics for the pre-2000 Mustangs.
Here is one "gotcha" sort of tip regarding the type B, C and D systems:
Systems B, C and E have an anti-scan function. If you attempt to start the vehicle with an unprogrammed key, the theft indicator will flash rapidly and the vehicle will not start. Leave the key in the RUN position for 30 seconds for the anti-scan feature to time out. The vehicle will fail to start during this 30-second time period even if a correctly programmed key is used.
Last edited by cliffyk; 03-28-2011 at 10:42 AM.
03-28-2011, 10:14 PM
#6
4th Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,231
Cliffy - Just tested PATS tonight, Turn key to on position - Theft light on for a few sec's then off. No flashing. Looks like PATS is fine... Why the code (twice), no fricking clue. Tested a few of the plugs for spark, and spark was present. I'm assuming the coil packs are fine as I wouldn't get any spark, and all 8 plugs were fouled out and soaked in fuel...
So basically... Let the car sit for a day or two, car starts for a few seconds (up to 8 seconds one day), then dies. Try to start again, no start. Try to start with WOT, half/most of the time it will start then die once my foot is off the pedal. Am I going in the wrong direction with the fuel soaked plugs since I keep trying to restart the car so many times? If so, what is causing the car to start after sitting for a day (yes, a whole day or longer), then will not restart without WOT.
I know WOT = cutting off fuel at startup... I just don't get it. The fuel pump primes as usual (and we know I'm getting fuel, hehe). I'm about to take the car somewhere, I'm getting tired of this bs.
I did read about a problem with the alternator having a bad diode, causing some sensors to go nuts and having a similar issue as my car. I was going to unplug the wires to the alt (unhooking battery first of course), and try starting the car. I know this is a shot in the dark, but I'm almost there.
My buddy said it's real hard for these cars to just jump timing, and I don't want to tear down the car (just yet). Any other idea's? Thanks for the help guys!
So basically... Let the car sit for a day or two, car starts for a few seconds (up to 8 seconds one day), then dies. Try to start again, no start. Try to start with WOT, half/most of the time it will start then die once my foot is off the pedal. Am I going in the wrong direction with the fuel soaked plugs since I keep trying to restart the car so many times? If so, what is causing the car to start after sitting for a day (yes, a whole day or longer), then will not restart without WOT.
I know WOT = cutting off fuel at startup... I just don't get it. The fuel pump primes as usual (and we know I'm getting fuel, hehe). I'm about to take the car somewhere, I'm getting tired of this bs.
I did read about a problem with the alternator having a bad diode, causing some sensors to go nuts and having a similar issue as my car. I was going to unplug the wires to the alt (unhooking battery first of course), and try starting the car. I know this is a shot in the dark, but I'm almost there.
My buddy said it's real hard for these cars to just jump timing, and I don't want to tear down the car (just yet). Any other idea's? Thanks for the help guys!
03-31-2011, 08:48 PM
#7
4th Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,231
Sooo... Update:
Tried a new cam position sensor, same issue... Tried used (borrowed from a working stang) coil packs, same issue. Tried unplugging the power and plugs to the alternator in case it was a bad diode, same issue.
The only thing left is to find a fuel pressure gauge and make sure the pressure is where it should be, though, I know I'm getting fuel.
I'm about to take it somewhere. I'm pretty frustrated with this thing, and don't know what else to look for. Oh yeah, I also discovered that when the car eventually starts at WOT, it idles around 1000-1100 rpms, if I let off half way, or even at 1/4 throttle, the rpm's go up slightly (1-200 rpms). When i'm almost totally off the gas, it'll die.
I really don't want to take the car somewhere as my wife just lost her job. This is our "summer" car, but my mom's car died and has my other car, so we are down to 1 car, which sucks. Any further help would be greatly appreciated.
Tried a new cam position sensor, same issue... Tried used (borrowed from a working stang) coil packs, same issue. Tried unplugging the power and plugs to the alternator in case it was a bad diode, same issue.
The only thing left is to find a fuel pressure gauge and make sure the pressure is where it should be, though, I know I'm getting fuel.
I'm about to take it somewhere. I'm pretty frustrated with this thing, and don't know what else to look for. Oh yeah, I also discovered that when the car eventually starts at WOT, it idles around 1000-1100 rpms, if I let off half way, or even at 1/4 throttle, the rpm's go up slightly (1-200 rpms). When i'm almost totally off the gas, it'll die.
I really don't want to take the car somewhere as my wife just lost her job. This is our "summer" car, but my mom's car died and has my other car, so we are down to 1 car, which sucks. Any further help would be greatly appreciated.
