Bad Starter Acting Like Bad Battery
02-09-2014, 03:24 PM
#21
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I didn't realize an internal rectifier is the primary reason for the differentiation.
I thought they were still alternators because they created ac and converted it to usable dc energy.
Not that it makes any sense, but that's how I explained it to myself.
I'm going to kidnap you and stuff you into a bag to use at work. Your knowledge would certainly come in handy in the signal department of engineering that I work (and sometimes wonder why) in.
I thought they were still alternators because they created ac and converted it to usable dc energy.
Not that it makes any sense, but that's how I explained it to myself.
I'm going to kidnap you and stuff you into a bag to use at work. Your knowledge would certainly come in handy in the signal department of engineering that I work (and sometimes wonder why) in.
02-12-2014, 02:33 PM
#22
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Any corrosion/bad connection/other interference with electron flow will between the generator ground and + output will cause the battery to be overcharged and fail because the voltage regulator will not be seeing the actual voltage (state of charge) at the battery.
Posiive terminal is broken in one spot, but not convinced that is the issue...will be changing out this evening.
Measure the resistance between the generator body and the negative battery post (the post, not the terminal connector), and between the generator positive output and the battery's positive post. If either is greater that 0.5 Ω then you have a wiring problem that needs to be resolved.
Both measured 0
Next with the engine running measure the voltage between the generator body and the positive battery post--if it is more than 15.0 V then you have a wiring problem that needs to be resolved.
Reading around 14.7-14.8
Now measure the voltage across the battery terminals, and then the battery posts--if there is any difference, or if it is less than the above measurement (generator body to battery positive post) then you have a wiring problem that needs to be resolved.
Both reading same as above.
Once all of the above have been brought up to spec then worry about dark current...
Posiive terminal is broken in one spot, but not convinced that is the issue...will be changing out this evening.
Measure the resistance between the generator body and the negative battery post (the post, not the terminal connector), and between the generator positive output and the battery's positive post. If either is greater that 0.5 Ω then you have a wiring problem that needs to be resolved.
Both measured 0
Next with the engine running measure the voltage between the generator body and the positive battery post--if it is more than 15.0 V then you have a wiring problem that needs to be resolved.
Reading around 14.7-14.8
Now measure the voltage across the battery terminals, and then the battery posts--if there is any difference, or if it is less than the above measurement (generator body to battery positive post) then you have a wiring problem that needs to be resolved.
Both reading same as above.
Once all of the above have been brought up to spec then worry about dark current...
02-12-2014, 06:24 PM
#23
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"Positive terminal is broken in one spot."--is not good. At times (like just after starting) that puppy is being asked to conduct 50 to 75+A.
Have you checked the starter current draw--it could be a grounded armature (bad bearings), worn brushes or a bad commutator--simple electrical tests could nail this down in minutes...
Have you checked the starter current draw--it could be a grounded armature (bad bearings), worn brushes or a bad commutator--simple electrical tests could nail this down in minutes...
02-12-2014, 09:23 PM
#24
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Broken as in cracked but still creating a solid connection. When the negative one rusted through the year before last it simply wasn't acting as if the battery was even connected.
Question regarding the PCM... we've discussed that it times out/sleeps/times out around 40ish minutes...what reactivates it?
Any module activating? Or just turning the key into accessory position?
I ask because I had to open the door to get my meter before performing the test.
Let sit 55 minutes first time (several hours second time) Had jumper installed, got in series, removed jumper and measured +/- 150 mA.
IF the door ooening does not reactivate the PCM module/take it out of sleep, then it isnt sleeping at all.
If that does restart the process I still have that test to do.
Question regarding the PCM... we've discussed that it times out/sleeps/times out around 40ish minutes...what reactivates it?
Any module activating? Or just turning the key into accessory position?
I ask because I had to open the door to get my meter before performing the test.
Let sit 55 minutes first time (several hours second time) Had jumper installed, got in series, removed jumper and measured +/- 150 mA.
IF the door ooening does not reactivate the PCM module/take it out of sleep, then it isnt sleeping at all.
If that does restart the process I still have that test to do.
02-12-2014, 09:24 PM
#25
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"Positive terminal is broken in one spot."--is not good. At times (like just after starting) that puppy is being asked to conduct 50 to 75+A.
Have you checked the starter current draw--it could be a grounded armature (bad bearings), worn brushes or a bad commutator--simple electrical tests could nail this down in minutes...
Have you checked the starter current draw--it could be a grounded armature (bad bearings), worn brushes or a bad commutator--simple electrical tests could nail this down in minutes...
Get in series, set for 100-150A and give it s whirl?
02-12-2014, 09:35 PM
#26
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Question regarding the PCM... we've discussed that it times out/sleeps/times out around 40ish minutes...what reactivates it?
Any module activating? Or just turning the key into accessory position?
I ask because I had to open the door to get my meter before performing the test.
Let sit 55 minutes first time (several hours second time) Had jumper installed, got in series, removed jumper and measured +/- 150 mA.
IF the door ooening does not reactivate the PCM module/take it out of sleep, then it isnt sleeping at all.
If that does restart the process I still have that test to do.
IF the door ooening does not reactivate the PCM module/take it out of sleep, then it isnt sleeping at all.
If that does restart the process I still have that test to do.
Quite frankly if you do not have a shop manual, and a good understanding of modern automotive electric/electronic systems, you are wasting your time...
Last edited by cliffyk; 02-12-2014 at 09:37 PM.
02-12-2014, 09:46 PM
#27
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I get that you have to rule everything out (including the terminal connection) which is why I bought a new connector to install on the positive side.
When I say I don't believe it, im simply expressing my doubts, not ignoring. The other side did the same thing and I didn't experience any issues such as this one, and im not seeing any increased resistance on that side compared to the negative.
Again, no matter, im replacing that connection.
Next time I look for draw I'll be certain to have had everything off for about an hour before testing. That way I can be certain there is or is not a draw of 150mA when everything (figuratively) should be off.
I have a basic understanding of electrical systems which is the only reason I'm even attempting to trouble shoot me issues. Applying it to automotives shouldn't be that horrible.
If I'm wasting mine (or anyone elses time) then sorry. I just dont like bending over and taking it from repair shops anymore.
When I say I don't believe it, im simply expressing my doubts, not ignoring. The other side did the same thing and I didn't experience any issues such as this one, and im not seeing any increased resistance on that side compared to the negative.
Again, no matter, im replacing that connection.
Next time I look for draw I'll be certain to have had everything off for about an hour before testing. That way I can be certain there is or is not a draw of 150mA when everything (figuratively) should be off.
I have a basic understanding of electrical systems which is the only reason I'm even attempting to trouble shoot me issues. Applying it to automotives shouldn't be that horrible.
If I'm wasting mine (or anyone elses time) then sorry. I just dont like bending over and taking it from repair shops anymore.
02-13-2014, 06:11 PM
#28
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Alright, after having everything off for over an hour and not opening a door I have a draw of 34-35 mA.
I'll have to pull fuses from under the dash next time and see if one of them brings it back down. Then see what circuits rely on that fuse.
I'll have to pull fuses from under the dash next time and see if one of them brings it back down. Then see what circuits rely on that fuse.
02-13-2014, 07:44 PM
#30
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NOTE: No production vehicle should have more than a 50 mA (0.050 amp) continuous draw.