Dyno number guesses anyone?
06-15-2014, 12:32 AM
#11
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Dam that's depressing...for the record I beleive my compression comes in around 9 to 1. The only advantage that I have is more aggressive higher rpm stuff mainly cams being a max effort street strip cam, degreed of course. On a different note mustang power source made a pull with their car, which is the 4.6 version of basically every part I have on my car I'm just 5.0. They had a d1sc though 3.2 upper same lower, compression bump was about 1 point. But on e 85 they made 686 through an auto cut out at 6100 not enough fueling. Now obviously more compression bigger sc, but over 700 capable
06-15-2014, 09:57 AM
#12
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Dam that's depressing...for the record I beleive my compression comes in around 9 to 1. The only advantage that I have is more aggressive higher rpm stuff mainly cams being a max effort street strip cam, degreed of course. On a different note mustang power source made a pull with their car, which is the 4.6 version of basically every part I have on my car I'm just 5.0. They had a d1sc though 3.2 upper same lower, compression bump was about 1 point. But on e 85 they made 686 through an auto cut out at 6100 not enough fueling. Now obviously more compression bigger sc, but over 700 capable
06-15-2014, 11:00 AM
#13
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Yea I knew it was bigger lol. Here's an interesting thought you saying a t trim would get me to 700, did you mean I different trim? Because a t trim is less efficent than the si and only out flows it by 50 cfm which is not worth 100 hp. On the e-85 what I have seen in the 600 range seems to be about 30-40 hp increase over running water meth, so a 680 on e85 should still be over 600 on water meth. All that aside I don't think that the si trim is good for much over 600. Jordan over at excessive told me they had a similar set up to mine running a s trim make 600. So he has me all hopeful lol. Although since every Dyno is different I can see a swing of 40 hp pretty easy, so for me if I made say 580 I'd still say that's what I was expecting, just because some dynos wouldake over 600. It would just be nice to have that paper that says it haha. And really all I want is to trap over 130mph in the quarter. If I can do that with 500 I don't care lol
Last edited by Bman2000; 06-15-2014 at 11:07 AM.
06-16-2014, 11:25 PM
#15
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Before I get into the details i'll just say this. In the case that you are not good with quantifying power/torque by looking at a spec list its always easier to just look at what similar setups make. The best way is to look at what a slightly better setup makes. Hard to have an inaccurate expectation when you look at it that way.
With that being said theres a few things here.
#1 Your setup simply wont come close to 600RWHP. I know what youve been told - but people are told a lot of things in this industry....especially by people working in shops. Around here i've never heard of an S trim setup making anywhere near 600RWHP on a 2V from any shop that i've spoken to about that topic. Of course DA/different dynos and other factors play in. But I have a feeling those 600RWHP S trim cars will be conveniently hard to actually find in person if you know what I mean.
#2 Your setup has a few issues right now even if it could see 600RWHP.
-Your 6 Rib setup may end up having slippage. But your cams/heads are actually going to help you here. As Kerns has mentioned your ported heads and improved cams are going to increase something called Volumetric Efficiency. This means your engine can move the same amount of air with less pressure(boost). Its actually ideal to make as much power on as little boost as possible. The lower boost will help with slippage. Do you have longtubes? These will also significantly increase volumetric efficiency and lower boost. Pray for lower boost lol!
-Your Si trim is going to have to work really hard on this setup. If this is a V2 or V3 you're going to be over-spinning it and if its a V1 youre going to be right on the brink. Its always a risky proposition to try to overspin a blower. Most of the time it just blows too hot. You might be ok but hopefully the tuner knows to keep an very close eye on the IATs.
-I honestly don't know a whole lot about returnless outside of the difference in how each system is setup. Heres what I do know. If this were a return style system your fuel system wouldn't support anything over 500RWHP safely. I'm not sure if going returnless increases the capabilities of the same pump setup but if it doesnt you have nowhere near enough fuel.
You would have been much better off with a return style system with a single Stealth 340 + Kenne Bell BAP. It would have been cheaper and would support 30%-50% more power than a duel Stealth 340 setup with no BAP. Fuel delivery is extremely complex and involves a lot of variables but according to my math unless being returnless increases the capability of your pumps you were way better off staying returnless.
On a returnless setup...
Dual Stealth 340 = ~530LP/H
Single Stealth 340 + Kenne Bell BAP = ~600-689LP/H.
Dual Stealth 340 + Dual Kenne Bell BAP = More fuel than just about anybody needs.
I can lay all the math out but that would be very in depth and take a while. I'm willing to do it though. I spent 2.5 hours last night double checking the math that I came up with off the top of my head.
All in all your cams/heads/meth are going to help you towards your goals a lot. I would be surprised to see this setup make more than 520WHP. And it will naturally have around 50-100TQ less than HP. Truth is even if its capable of making 600RWHP the tuner is going to shut it down fast because your fuel system isnt even in the right county to be supporting 600RWHP.
Satisfaction starts with expectations in life. A few things i've learned about builds like this. Always mark your cost estimate up about 20% at the end. And always make very shallow goals for your setup - it will make you feel a lot better and smile at the dyno when it makes more. But youl always be disappointed if you dont hit your goals.
GL to ya. For the most part its a really good setup. The only two things are the supercharger is an underdog to this motor and I would have done my fuel system way differently.
Have fun and enjoy it. When I build my car it will be stroked to 5.0, low compression, meth injected and the KB will be swapped with a 2.6L or the 2.1L will be turnt the **** up. I plan on less aggressive heads and cams though for drivability. Very similar really.
With that being said theres a few things here.
#1 Your setup simply wont come close to 600RWHP. I know what youve been told - but people are told a lot of things in this industry....especially by people working in shops. Around here i've never heard of an S trim setup making anywhere near 600RWHP on a 2V from any shop that i've spoken to about that topic. Of course DA/different dynos and other factors play in. But I have a feeling those 600RWHP S trim cars will be conveniently hard to actually find in person if you know what I mean.
#2 Your setup has a few issues right now even if it could see 600RWHP.
-Your 6 Rib setup may end up having slippage. But your cams/heads are actually going to help you here. As Kerns has mentioned your ported heads and improved cams are going to increase something called Volumetric Efficiency. This means your engine can move the same amount of air with less pressure(boost). Its actually ideal to make as much power on as little boost as possible. The lower boost will help with slippage. Do you have longtubes? These will also significantly increase volumetric efficiency and lower boost. Pray for lower boost lol!
-Your Si trim is going to have to work really hard on this setup. If this is a V2 or V3 you're going to be over-spinning it and if its a V1 youre going to be right on the brink. Its always a risky proposition to try to overspin a blower. Most of the time it just blows too hot. You might be ok but hopefully the tuner knows to keep an very close eye on the IATs.
-I honestly don't know a whole lot about returnless outside of the difference in how each system is setup. Heres what I do know. If this were a return style system your fuel system wouldn't support anything over 500RWHP safely. I'm not sure if going returnless increases the capabilities of the same pump setup but if it doesnt you have nowhere near enough fuel.
You would have been much better off with a return style system with a single Stealth 340 + Kenne Bell BAP. It would have been cheaper and would support 30%-50% more power than a duel Stealth 340 setup with no BAP. Fuel delivery is extremely complex and involves a lot of variables but according to my math unless being returnless increases the capability of your pumps you were way better off staying returnless.
On a returnless setup...
Dual Stealth 340 = ~530LP/H
Single Stealth 340 + Kenne Bell BAP = ~600-689LP/H.
Dual Stealth 340 + Dual Kenne Bell BAP = More fuel than just about anybody needs.
I can lay all the math out but that would be very in depth and take a while. I'm willing to do it though. I spent 2.5 hours last night double checking the math that I came up with off the top of my head.
All in all your cams/heads/meth are going to help you towards your goals a lot. I would be surprised to see this setup make more than 520WHP. And it will naturally have around 50-100TQ less than HP. Truth is even if its capable of making 600RWHP the tuner is going to shut it down fast because your fuel system isnt even in the right county to be supporting 600RWHP.
Satisfaction starts with expectations in life. A few things i've learned about builds like this. Always mark your cost estimate up about 20% at the end. And always make very shallow goals for your setup - it will make you feel a lot better and smile at the dyno when it makes more. But youl always be disappointed if you dont hit your goals.
GL to ya. For the most part its a really good setup. The only two things are the supercharger is an underdog to this motor and I would have done my fuel system way differently.
Have fun and enjoy it. When I build my car it will be stroked to 5.0, low compression, meth injected and the KB will be swapped with a 2.6L or the 2.1L will be turnt the **** up. I plan on less aggressive heads and cams though for drivability. Very similar really.
Last edited by Hangwire; 06-16-2014 at 11:41 PM.
06-17-2014, 12:58 AM
#16
Holy mother of god hangwire. That's a lot to digest. Bman, I hope you get as close as you can to your goal. Just sounds like fuel and that 6 rib set up will be holding you back. Hopefully, if that is all that's preventing you from reaching your target, it'll be an easy fix.
06-17-2014, 02:04 PM
#17
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I understand the concepts of volumetric efficency, and I agree less boost is better, I'm also pretty positive I would need 18 with my set up to make the power I want, if I only make 14, obviously won't hit my power. And I do take all the hopes and dreams with a grain of salt. So far I have found a few similar set ups, but none close enough imo to make an acurate guess, but all of them over 550. Now on to the issues I have with your statement hangwire.
While I do not disagree that I may not make my power, I need to correct a few misunderstandings, either by how I wrote my spec list or you not reading it right. I do indeed have long tubes, 1 5/8 to 2.5 coulda gone with 1 3/4 to 3 but it's still a street car. The exhaust also has no cats and will be mandrel bent tail pipes. Pretty sure I just didn't include that info. The bigger issue I have is the confusion between return less and return style. Return less system is what our cars come with, and a stealth 340 is not a variable voltage pump, meaning not designed to run in return less systems. What I have is a return style system, so both of my 340s are running 100% all the time and I have a boost reference regulator that dumps the unused fuel back to the tank. I know for a fact those pumps are plenty big enough in this set up to handle more power than I will be able to make with this super charger. A friend of mine is running 1 of those pumps and had fuel left over at 540rwhp 620tq. That's why I chose those pumps. The only limiting factor of that fuel system Making probably close to 1200rwhp is the fact that I am runnig factory lines up to the rails. But near as I can tell that won't really be much of and issue until somewhere over 700rwhp.
So all in all I have 3 limiting factors imo for not making my power. Sc not big enough, too much belt slip, or my 3 core Fmic not flowing well enough. I miss anything?
While I do not disagree that I may not make my power, I need to correct a few misunderstandings, either by how I wrote my spec list or you not reading it right. I do indeed have long tubes, 1 5/8 to 2.5 coulda gone with 1 3/4 to 3 but it's still a street car. The exhaust also has no cats and will be mandrel bent tail pipes. Pretty sure I just didn't include that info. The bigger issue I have is the confusion between return less and return style. Return less system is what our cars come with, and a stealth 340 is not a variable voltage pump, meaning not designed to run in return less systems. What I have is a return style system, so both of my 340s are running 100% all the time and I have a boost reference regulator that dumps the unused fuel back to the tank. I know for a fact those pumps are plenty big enough in this set up to handle more power than I will be able to make with this super charger. A friend of mine is running 1 of those pumps and had fuel left over at 540rwhp 620tq. That's why I chose those pumps. The only limiting factor of that fuel system Making probably close to 1200rwhp is the fact that I am runnig factory lines up to the rails. But near as I can tell that won't really be much of and issue until somewhere over 700rwhp.
So all in all I have 3 limiting factors imo for not making my power. Sc not big enough, too much belt slip, or my 3 core Fmic not flowing well enough. I miss anything?
06-18-2014, 02:18 AM
#18
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I understand the concepts of volumetric efficency, and I agree less boost is better, I'm also pretty positive I would need 18 with my set up to make the power I want, if I only make 14, obviously won't hit my power. And I do take all the hopes and dreams with a grain of salt. So far I have found a few similar set ups, but none close enough imo to make an acurate guess, but all of them over 550. Now on to the issues I have with your statement hangwire.
While I do not disagree that I may not make my power, I need to correct a few misunderstandings, either by how I wrote my spec list or you not reading it right. I do indeed have long tubes, 1 5/8 to 2.5 coulda gone with 1 3/4 to 3 but it's still a street car. The exhaust also has no cats and will be mandrel bent tail pipes. Pretty sure I just didn't include that info. The bigger issue I have is the confusion between return less and return style. Return less system is what our cars come with, and a stealth 340 is not a variable voltage pump, meaning not designed to run in return less systems. What I have is a return style system, so both of my 340s are running 100% all the time and I have a boost reference regulator that dumps the unused fuel back to the tank. I know for a fact those pumps are plenty big enough in this set up to handle more power than I will be able to make with this super charger. A friend of mine is running 1 of those pumps and had fuel left over at 540rwhp 620tq. That's why I chose those pumps. The only limiting factor of that fuel system Making probably close to 1200rwhp is the fact that I am runnig factory lines up to the rails. But near as I can tell that won't really be much of and issue until somewhere over 700rwhp.
So all in all I have 3 limiting factors imo for not making my power. Sc not big enough, too much belt slip, or my 3 core Fmic not flowing well enough. I miss anything?
While I do not disagree that I may not make my power, I need to correct a few misunderstandings, either by how I wrote my spec list or you not reading it right. I do indeed have long tubes, 1 5/8 to 2.5 coulda gone with 1 3/4 to 3 but it's still a street car. The exhaust also has no cats and will be mandrel bent tail pipes. Pretty sure I just didn't include that info. The bigger issue I have is the confusion between return less and return style. Return less system is what our cars come with, and a stealth 340 is not a variable voltage pump, meaning not designed to run in return less systems. What I have is a return style system, so both of my 340s are running 100% all the time and I have a boost reference regulator that dumps the unused fuel back to the tank. I know for a fact those pumps are plenty big enough in this set up to handle more power than I will be able to make with this super charger. A friend of mine is running 1 of those pumps and had fuel left over at 540rwhp 620tq. That's why I chose those pumps. The only limiting factor of that fuel system Making probably close to 1200rwhp is the fact that I am runnig factory lines up to the rails. But near as I can tell that won't really be much of and issue until somewhere over 700rwhp.
So all in all I have 3 limiting factors imo for not making my power. Sc not big enough, too much belt slip, or my 3 core Fmic not flowing well enough. I miss anything?
According to my knowledge this makes absolutely no difference on your fuel.
On returnless systems fuel is electronically controlled and cannot be rerouted to the fuel tank. On Return systems fuel is mechanically controlled and is rerouted to the fuel tank.
Returnless fuel systems have no way of returning fuel that leaves the fuel tank. This means fuel supply must be very close to what the engine needs. The PCM makes sure fuel commanded is accurate by monitoring the Fuel Pressure Regulator Sensor and Fuel Pump Driver Module. Fuel pump voltage is variable but still 80-100% at WOT depending on how maxed out the fuel system is.
Return fuel systems supply constant 90-100% fuel pump duty cycle and all excess fuel is bled off and returned to the fuel tank by a mechanical valve.
Nothing about a return style fuel system increases the total fuel flow capability of the fuel pump. LP/H is a spec that is determined regardless of fuel pump voltage. 340 LP/H is 340LP/H regardless of the fuel system style.
The purpose of a return style fuel system is to ease tuning issues at higher HP levels. But this isnt needed until extremely high HP levels. A quality tuner will have 0 issues tuning your car as returnless at your HP level.
The only thing I can think of that would make a difference is if return style fuel systems see a lot less fuel pump capability loss via lines/fittings/etc. In our cars with stock fuel rails and lines we see a 20-25% loss in total fuel flow capability of the fuel pump due to this on returnless systems. So lets say the fuel pump itself can pump 100LP/H. On our car it could only effectively supply 75-80LP/H to the motor itself because of pressure loses in lines and fittings. Similar to how we lose power HP/TQ in our drivetrain.
Until i'm further corrected/educated i'm staying firm on this. Two 340LP/H fuel pumps will simply not supply 600RWHP. Unless what I have said is incorrect somewhere your friend is lying or you are mistaking/confused on his setup. A single 340 LP/H pump has a snow ***** chance in an inferno of safely supplying almost 600RWTQ, return style or not. If small simple systems like that supplied that much fuel there would be A LOT less competition in the fuel market.
I've been wrong before. I just wanna make sure i'm telling people the correct things.
06-18-2014, 09:26 AM
#19
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Maybe we are both missing something then. Because I've been in my friends car, seen the Dyno sheet and watched it run 11.01@127 in full street trim ac and all. Powered by 1 areomotive stealth 340, and 0 fuel issues. I can go a little further, this part is obviously flawed because manufacturers will say anything to sell stuff, but aeromotive claims 700rwhp na 600 forced induction with appropriate fuel line sizes, which I don't have, on one pump. Lethal performance sells this kit that I am running in my car as 1000+ rwhp(obviously with upgraded feed and return lines). While I am not doubting your math, I have seen a car make almost what I was shooting for with 1 of these pumps, and if I remember correctly he didn't have huge after market fuel lines. So unless something is totally different between my return style system and his, I'm not worried, unless you can explain why his car is so damn fast?
On to another note. I'm sure this is a matter of opinion but I want to say something about the theory of running a boost a pump in a return less system, I know there are a lot of places that do it and recommend it. But here's my issue with it. In our stock fuel system the line pressure is controlled by varying the voltage to the pump, thus creating the correct amount of fuel in at rails to maintain say 40psi. The system is very finicky, if your fpdm isn't working right or your charging system isn't outputting full voltage or you have a small draw somewhere the pump is unable to preform. Which I'm sure you know this. So my issue after dealing with all of those problems trying to get a ford gt fuel pump to supply enough power to handle 360rwhp is that everyone's suggestion was you need a boost a pump. When I started looking into it I realized this. If you are running a boost a pump you are extending the range in which the fuel pump was designed to run so that you make up for flow that is otherwise not there. It's a bandaid, plain and simple. If your electrical system isn't up to par, you bandaid it with a boost a pump, if your pump is too small you bandaid it with a boost a pump. And sacrifice the longevity of the pump in the process. This is why I went return, and this is also why I wouldn't personally trust my 15k to a boost a pump....even if everyone else seems to be doing it.
On to another note. I'm sure this is a matter of opinion but I want to say something about the theory of running a boost a pump in a return less system, I know there are a lot of places that do it and recommend it. But here's my issue with it. In our stock fuel system the line pressure is controlled by varying the voltage to the pump, thus creating the correct amount of fuel in at rails to maintain say 40psi. The system is very finicky, if your fpdm isn't working right or your charging system isn't outputting full voltage or you have a small draw somewhere the pump is unable to preform. Which I'm sure you know this. So my issue after dealing with all of those problems trying to get a ford gt fuel pump to supply enough power to handle 360rwhp is that everyone's suggestion was you need a boost a pump. When I started looking into it I realized this. If you are running a boost a pump you are extending the range in which the fuel pump was designed to run so that you make up for flow that is otherwise not there. It's a bandaid, plain and simple. If your electrical system isn't up to par, you bandaid it with a boost a pump, if your pump is too small you bandaid it with a boost a pump. And sacrifice the longevity of the pump in the process. This is why I went return, and this is also why I wouldn't personally trust my 15k to a boost a pump....even if everyone else seems to be doing it.
but that's the walboro 400 pumps and 1400rwhp for the walboro440? 465? Something like that lol.
