My 2010 GT Project!
06-09-2010, 09:31 AM
#21
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 4,491
Wow lots of feedback, thanks guys!
I have to admit I'm a bit confused though.. everyone is saying forced induction, but that blows my whole wad on the engine. You can't just bolt on a blower and call it a day, right? You have to add a new fuel pump and higher flow injectors. And unless I'm totally in the dark here, doesn't that add a lot of strain to the engine? Wont I want to upgrade the heads and cams too to compensate for the extra muscle on top?
I have to admit I'm a bit confused though.. everyone is saying forced induction, but that blows my whole wad on the engine. You can't just bolt on a blower and call it a day, right? You have to add a new fuel pump and higher flow injectors. And unless I'm totally in the dark here, doesn't that add a lot of strain to the engine? Wont I want to upgrade the heads and cams too to compensate for the extra muscle on top?
06-09-2010, 09:33 AM
#22
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 4,491
Ok I'd like to take this thread in a new direction....
Hypothetically speaking for purposes of this thread... let's just say that forced induction is a concept that doesn't exist....
So for the remainder of this thread.. no superchargers or whipplechargers...
Natural aspiration is a beautiful thing guys.. trust me =0)
.......and continue.
Hypothetically speaking for purposes of this thread... let's just say that forced induction is a concept that doesn't exist....
So for the remainder of this thread.. no superchargers or whipplechargers...
Natural aspiration is a beautiful thing guys.. trust me =0)
.......and continue.
06-09-2010, 11:42 AM
#23
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Billings, MT
Posts: 462
OK, let's talk NA then. As I said before, on the 4.6, a tune will get you 10-15 hp, a cai won't do much because for 2010 they improved that already, but expect the tune/cai combo to net you 15-20 hp total. UDPs will get you another 5-10, as will CMDPs. At best, you can expect to do these basic bolt-ons for an increase in RWHP of about 30-35, taking you to around 290-315rwhp, depending on where you start. From there, a set of cams will get you another 20-35 hp if used in conjunction with the other mods. You might see a 3-5 hp gain from replacing your water pump with an electric, and after that you need to look at drivetrain loss. Aluminum flywheel and driveshaft will net you maybe 4-8 more rwhp, and going with a super light forged wheel will gain a couple more. At the very best, you can maybe top 350-360 rwhp with NA mods. I have heard of some people getting as high as 370 rwhp NA after porting the heads. In many cases, these people use LT headers as well, and regardless of my personal views on that subject, let's assume it's mandatory to get the most out of an NA combo.
All in, you will be in the $5000-$8000 range to get the most out of the NA, and the most would be in the ~360 rwhp range. OR you can get ~400rwhp for $5k and close to 500rwhp for $8k with FI. The bottom line is, unless you are only interested in a mild performance boost, FI should ALWAYS be on the table. Ford didn't leave a lot of room for improvement in the 4.6 for 2010, which is why they had to go to a different motor for 2011 to get the power to compete against the other pony cars on the market.
To clear up a few things about FI, here is a few answers to the questions posed above. Depending on the type of FI (ie turbo, twin screw, roots, centri) the parasitic power losses will determine the maximum rear wheel output you can safely get from the stock 4.6. Turbos will get you the most, and with 8-9 psi you can usually see 480-500rwhp. Twin screws and centrifugals will get you 440-460 rwhp on the same level of boost, and a roots will get you 420-440 for that boost level (except the new TVS ones which are in line with the twin screws for parasitic losses). 8-9 psi is perfectly safe with a good tune, and aside from maybe a Boost-a-pump, the fuel system can handle it with no problems. A GT500 dual pump is better, but will cost 3x more than a BAP. Nothing else needs to be done to the engine, and unless you stomp on it and get into boost, it drives identical to stock. The only real consideration you have to be aware of with FI is your choice of fuel. To get the most out of any FI setup, you will have to use 91-93 octane fuel. Poor fuel combined with pushing the spark advance or AF ratio is what leads to blown engines. Thing is, to get more power out of an NA engine, you either have to improve air flow, advance timing, or lean the fuel mixture. The first one is where mods like cams or a CAI come in, the last 2 are in the tune, and both require higher octance fuel anyway.
Quite frankly put, you need to decide where your priorities are - performance, styling, or stereo. Performance costs money, and the magic numbers tend to be $1k, $5k, and $8k. $1k will get you a tune, cai, and udp or delete plates. $5k will get you into a basic FI. $8k will get you the most out of the engine. Whatever you decide is going to revolve around those figures.
You mentioned that 2010 FI kits were more expensive, and I caution that it will continue to get worse in the near future with it being a unique model year with declining demand, so if you plan to do something, I would get it done now before prices start to rise.
Of course, you can ignore all this, take the $8k as suggested and trade in for a 2011 with the 5.0. It's the only way you will see over 400 bhp with an NA setup in a mustang.
All in, you will be in the $5000-$8000 range to get the most out of the NA, and the most would be in the ~360 rwhp range. OR you can get ~400rwhp for $5k and close to 500rwhp for $8k with FI. The bottom line is, unless you are only interested in a mild performance boost, FI should ALWAYS be on the table. Ford didn't leave a lot of room for improvement in the 4.6 for 2010, which is why they had to go to a different motor for 2011 to get the power to compete against the other pony cars on the market.
To clear up a few things about FI, here is a few answers to the questions posed above. Depending on the type of FI (ie turbo, twin screw, roots, centri) the parasitic power losses will determine the maximum rear wheel output you can safely get from the stock 4.6. Turbos will get you the most, and with 8-9 psi you can usually see 480-500rwhp. Twin screws and centrifugals will get you 440-460 rwhp on the same level of boost, and a roots will get you 420-440 for that boost level (except the new TVS ones which are in line with the twin screws for parasitic losses). 8-9 psi is perfectly safe with a good tune, and aside from maybe a Boost-a-pump, the fuel system can handle it with no problems. A GT500 dual pump is better, but will cost 3x more than a BAP. Nothing else needs to be done to the engine, and unless you stomp on it and get into boost, it drives identical to stock. The only real consideration you have to be aware of with FI is your choice of fuel. To get the most out of any FI setup, you will have to use 91-93 octane fuel. Poor fuel combined with pushing the spark advance or AF ratio is what leads to blown engines. Thing is, to get more power out of an NA engine, you either have to improve air flow, advance timing, or lean the fuel mixture. The first one is where mods like cams or a CAI come in, the last 2 are in the tune, and both require higher octance fuel anyway.
Quite frankly put, you need to decide where your priorities are - performance, styling, or stereo. Performance costs money, and the magic numbers tend to be $1k, $5k, and $8k. $1k will get you a tune, cai, and udp or delete plates. $5k will get you into a basic FI. $8k will get you the most out of the engine. Whatever you decide is going to revolve around those figures.
You mentioned that 2010 FI kits were more expensive, and I caution that it will continue to get worse in the near future with it being a unique model year with declining demand, so if you plan to do something, I would get it done now before prices start to rise.
Of course, you can ignore all this, take the $8k as suggested and trade in for a 2011 with the 5.0. It's the only way you will see over 400 bhp with an NA setup in a mustang.
06-09-2010, 09:17 PM
#25
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 10
OK, let's talk NA then. As I said before, on the 4.6, a tune will get you 10-15 hp, a cai won't do much because for 2010 they improved that already, but expect the tune/cai combo to net you 15-20 hp total. UDPs will get you another 5-10, as will CMDPs. At best, you can expect to do these basic bolt-ons for an increase in RWHP of about 30-35, taking you to around 290-315rwhp, depending on where you start. From there, a set of cams will get you another 20-35 hp if used in conjunction with the other mods. You might see a 3-5 hp gain from replacing your water pump with an electric, and after that you need to look at drivetrain loss. Aluminum flywheel and driveshaft will net you maybe 4-8 more rwhp, and going with a super light forged wheel will gain a couple more. At the very best, you can maybe top 350-360 rwhp with NA mods. I have heard of some people getting as high as 370 rwhp NA after porting the heads. In many cases, these people use LT headers as well, and regardless of my personal views on that subject, let's assume it's mandatory to get the most out of an NA combo.
All in, you will be in the $5000-$8000 range to get the most out of the NA, and the most would be in the ~360 rwhp range. OR you can get ~400rwhp for $5k and close to 500rwhp for $8k with FI. The bottom line is, unless you are only interested in a mild performance boost, FI should ALWAYS be on the table. Ford didn't leave a lot of room for improvement in the 4.6 for 2010, which is why they had to go to a different motor for 2011 to get the power to compete against the other pony cars on the market.
To clear up a few things about FI, here is a few answers to the questions posed above. Depending on the type of FI (ie turbo, twin screw, roots, centri) the parasitic power losses will determine the maximum rear wheel output you can safely get from the stock 4.6. Turbos will get you the most, and with 8-9 psi you can usually see 480-500rwhp. Twin screws and centrifugals will get you 440-460 rwhp on the same level of boost, and a roots will get you 420-440 for that boost level (except the new TVS ones which are in line with the twin screws for parasitic losses). 8-9 psi is perfectly safe with a good tune, and aside from maybe a Boost-a-pump, the fuel system can handle it with no problems. A GT500 dual pump is better, but will cost 3x more than a BAP. Nothing else needs to be done to the engine, and unless you stomp on it and get into boost, it drives identical to stock. The only real consideration you have to be aware of with FI is your choice of fuel. To get the most out of any FI setup, you will have to use 91-93 octane fuel. Poor fuel combined with pushing the spark advance or AF ratio is what leads to blown engines. Thing is, to get more power out of an NA engine, you either have to improve air flow, advance timing, or lean the fuel mixture. The first one is where mods like cams or a CAI come in, the last 2 are in the tune, and both require higher octance fuel anyway.
Quite frankly put, you need to decide where your priorities are - performance, styling, or stereo. Performance costs money, and the magic numbers tend to be $1k, $5k, and $8k. $1k will get you a tune, cai, and udp or delete plates. $5k will get you into a basic FI. $8k will get you the most out of the engine. Whatever you decide is going to revolve around those figures.
You mentioned that 2010 FI kits were more expensive, and I caution that it will continue to get worse in the near future with it being a unique model year with declining demand, so if you plan to do something, I would get it done now before prices start to rise.
Of course, you can ignore all this, take the $8k as suggested and trade in for a 2011 with the 5.0. It's the only way you will see over 400 bhp with an NA setup in a mustang.
All in, you will be in the $5000-$8000 range to get the most out of the NA, and the most would be in the ~360 rwhp range. OR you can get ~400rwhp for $5k and close to 500rwhp for $8k with FI. The bottom line is, unless you are only interested in a mild performance boost, FI should ALWAYS be on the table. Ford didn't leave a lot of room for improvement in the 4.6 for 2010, which is why they had to go to a different motor for 2011 to get the power to compete against the other pony cars on the market.
To clear up a few things about FI, here is a few answers to the questions posed above. Depending on the type of FI (ie turbo, twin screw, roots, centri) the parasitic power losses will determine the maximum rear wheel output you can safely get from the stock 4.6. Turbos will get you the most, and with 8-9 psi you can usually see 480-500rwhp. Twin screws and centrifugals will get you 440-460 rwhp on the same level of boost, and a roots will get you 420-440 for that boost level (except the new TVS ones which are in line with the twin screws for parasitic losses). 8-9 psi is perfectly safe with a good tune, and aside from maybe a Boost-a-pump, the fuel system can handle it with no problems. A GT500 dual pump is better, but will cost 3x more than a BAP. Nothing else needs to be done to the engine, and unless you stomp on it and get into boost, it drives identical to stock. The only real consideration you have to be aware of with FI is your choice of fuel. To get the most out of any FI setup, you will have to use 91-93 octane fuel. Poor fuel combined with pushing the spark advance or AF ratio is what leads to blown engines. Thing is, to get more power out of an NA engine, you either have to improve air flow, advance timing, or lean the fuel mixture. The first one is where mods like cams or a CAI come in, the last 2 are in the tune, and both require higher octance fuel anyway.
Quite frankly put, you need to decide where your priorities are - performance, styling, or stereo. Performance costs money, and the magic numbers tend to be $1k, $5k, and $8k. $1k will get you a tune, cai, and udp or delete plates. $5k will get you into a basic FI. $8k will get you the most out of the engine. Whatever you decide is going to revolve around those figures.
You mentioned that 2010 FI kits were more expensive, and I caution that it will continue to get worse in the near future with it being a unique model year with declining demand, so if you plan to do something, I would get it done now before prices start to rise.
Of course, you can ignore all this, take the $8k as suggested and trade in for a 2011 with the 5.0. It's the only way you will see over 400 bhp with an NA setup in a mustang.
Now I'm smack-dab in the middle of a dilemma... sigh. I've been sitting here for the last 5 minutes while I have the window open to reply to this post and pretty much banging my head on the desk trying to decide. I hate all of you now lol.
I want a supercharger, really I do... it's just I want all these other things too. And I know if I put a supercharger on it right now, that's it. No exhaust system or suspension pak. I'd have to wait to put those on sometime in the future. And I really want to get a balance of all the things that I want in the car for the first go-round.
Ok don't laugh at me... what if I put an older supercharger on it? There's a guy near me selling a Vortech V1 for $1000... that's doable for me. I know I'd have to buy the intercooler and other things, but I might still be able to work that into my budget. Could I find the brackets and hoses to work with my car?
Don't give up on me guys lol.
06-10-2010, 01:31 PM
#26
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,397
If FI is on the table again, I point back a page at eh link to yates I gave you, $4300 is the best price you will find on that kit. You would have a lot of scratch left over for geekery. If you go FI you can pretty much scratch out all of those other go fast parts you mention. FI, $1300 will get you a great suspension so ~$6300 there with the blower leaving you with $1400 for your carputer.
FTR, if i were to do a carputer i would be looking for a small nettop with a SSD, wire in an inverter, use your after market radio for a screen and you would have WiFi, windows, and better performance than that other gear you are talking for maybe $400 for the nettop plus the radio. Hit ebay and you can probably find something even cheaper. There was a new nettop HTPC launched recently that is tiny, like a deck of cards or two tiny, but i forget the brand. I'll post it up if i find it.
06-11-2010, 02:30 AM
#27
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 4,491
Ok don't laugh at me... what if I put an older supercharger on it? There's a guy near me selling a Vortech V1 for $1000... that's doable for me. I know I'd have to buy the intercooler and other things, but I might still be able to work that into my budget. Could I find the brackets and hoses to work with my car?
Don't give up on me guys lol.
Don't give up on me guys lol.
And thanks for the compliment.
06-11-2010, 01:46 PM
#28
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Billings, MT
Posts: 462
Wow... you and Diabolical are pretty much the only people in this thread who have actually been informative when talking about the FI options. Thanks a lot for going into detail about all this.
Now I'm smack-dab in the middle of a dilemma... sigh. I've been sitting here for the last 5 minutes while I have the window open to reply to this post and pretty much banging my head on the desk trying to decide. I hate all of you now lol.
I want a supercharger, really I do... it's just I want all these other things too. And I know if I put a supercharger on it right now, that's it. No exhaust system or suspension pak. I'd have to wait to put those on sometime in the future. And I really want to get a balance of all the things that I want in the car for the first go-round.
Ok don't laugh at me... what if I put an older supercharger on it? There's a guy near me selling a Vortech V1 for $1000... that's doable for me. I know I'd have to buy the intercooler and other things, but I might still be able to work that into my budget. Could I find the brackets and hoses to work with my car?
Don't give up on me guys lol.
Now I'm smack-dab in the middle of a dilemma... sigh. I've been sitting here for the last 5 minutes while I have the window open to reply to this post and pretty much banging my head on the desk trying to decide. I hate all of you now lol.
I want a supercharger, really I do... it's just I want all these other things too. And I know if I put a supercharger on it right now, that's it. No exhaust system or suspension pak. I'd have to wait to put those on sometime in the future. And I really want to get a balance of all the things that I want in the car for the first go-round.
Ok don't laugh at me... what if I put an older supercharger on it? There's a guy near me selling a Vortech V1 for $1000... that's doable for me. I know I'd have to buy the intercooler and other things, but I might still be able to work that into my budget. Could I find the brackets and hoses to work with my car?
Don't give up on me guys lol.
There are 2 things to consider with a used FI setup.. first off, if you buy an incomplete kit (or a tuner kit), there are going to be a LOT of hidden expenses, particularly if you are just taking it to a shop and telling them to make it work. Second, being a 2010, finding a used setup that is still built specifically to fit in your car is going to be difficult. Theoretically any kit for the 2005-2009 4.6 3v should work given that there will be some things that need to change, like maybe the cooling system issues, and possibly some wiring issues, and in any case like that, a custom tune is going to be mandatory.
I wouldn't rule it out, but the chances of coming across a complete enough setup for the 2010 at a reasonable price is going to be tough.. the 5.0 coming out in 2011 model is really limiting your options.
If the other stuff (stereo, computer, interior mods, etc) are that important, you will have to settle for some basic performance upgrades and call it good.. Throw in a UDP, CMDPs, and get a tuner/cai combo with a good email tune from Brenspeed or someone, and you will see a respectable gain in performance. At that point you need to convince yourself it is enough.. at least for now.. Suspension mods and the such can then be afforded, and the rest of your plans put into play.
On an $8k budget, you really end up having to choose between FI and everything else, because even a $5k FI setup will cost you another $2-3k in supporting mods before you are satisfied.. gauges, gauge pod, suspension, tires, etc.. it all adds up pretty fast.
Good luck on your decision!
