Would You Do This?
01-31-2014, 07:03 AM
#21
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The more you two attempt to justify bypassing specific instructions put out by Ford engineers that designed the engine, the more you convince me to stay away from dealerships.
If it works so well and so many techs are doing this, then by all means up-channel it to Ford so they can review and change their instructions.
That aside, I think Steve does not understand simple mechanics. It's not about the electrode. Yeah we all know the sticking is caused by the space between the head and the electrode being filled with deposits. What is missing in this discussion is the fact that we are dealing with two different types of metal. The head is aluminum. The threads on the plug are a harder metal. If you two haven't figured out how this works when an impact wrench is thrown into the mix, then I seriously think you shouldn't be working at a dealership on cars. Or even dispensing this advice at all. In fact, where is Ford service rep that is on this forum? I'd like to see him/her chime in about their techs doing this.
I invite you to include them in this discussion. Not trying to come across as rude, as a Ford customer I simply want to be reassured that Ford is on the same page as their service techs and said techs know what they are doing.
If it works so well and so many techs are doing this, then by all means up-channel it to Ford so they can review and change their instructions.
That aside, I think Steve does not understand simple mechanics. It's not about the electrode. Yeah we all know the sticking is caused by the space between the head and the electrode being filled with deposits. What is missing in this discussion is the fact that we are dealing with two different types of metal. The head is aluminum. The threads on the plug are a harder metal. If you two haven't figured out how this works when an impact wrench is thrown into the mix, then I seriously think you shouldn't be working at a dealership on cars. Or even dispensing this advice at all. In fact, where is Ford service rep that is on this forum? I'd like to see him/her chime in about their techs doing this.
I invite you to include them in this discussion. Not trying to come across as rude, as a Ford customer I simply want to be reassured that Ford is on the same page as their service techs and said techs know what they are doing.
"I seriously think you shouldn't be working at a dealership on cars. Or even dispensing this advice at all." -from Ricardo's post quoted above-
I have re read my posts carefully and am unable to find ANYWHERE in my writings where I dispensed advice or stated that I work in a car dealership.
I am simply discussing the issue. It appears that Steve is doing the same, plus doing a little research and injecting additional information into the "discussion." That's what we do on "discussion" forums.
I am fully aware of the dissimilar metal issue. I am also aware that these two metals expand at different rates. This fact MIGHT indicate why those dealer techs are getting by with their shortcut. If the head expands more than the plug, it is LOOSENING the plug. Are YOU able to understand THIS concept?
I agree that Ford should research this issue and either approve the impact wrench procedure or make it clear that it is not authorized.
I too am not trying to be rude. I am simply having a "discussion" about this issue because I find it interesting.
Last edited by MBDiagMan; 01-31-2014 at 07:06 AM.
01-31-2014, 07:32 AM
#22
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BTW, IMHO the most important item to remember when changing 3 Valve plugs is not the issue of hot or cold, impact or ratchet. I think the most important key is decarbonization. Not necessarily decarbonizing with engine running and chemical being introduced, but decarbonizing by soaking the plug.
It is the natural tendency to soak something with your favorite penetrating oil, whether that be AeroKroil, PB Blaster, Liquid Wrench or whatever it might be.
In the case of these plugs, however, the key is breaking the carbon bond, not providing a lubricant. This means soaking with something that will dissolve the carbon. In the second video I posted, the guy used a particular Ford Motorcraft product. It looked like SeaFoam when he sprayed it in the spark plug well.
Since I had SeaFoam on hand I used it, let them soak about an hour, backed them off a 1/4 turn, let the SeaFoam soak another hour or so, and they screwed right out.
I am not proposing that you do this, I am only telling what worked for me.
Just to be clear though, the engine was cold and I never got an impact wrench anywhere near it.
It is the natural tendency to soak something with your favorite penetrating oil, whether that be AeroKroil, PB Blaster, Liquid Wrench or whatever it might be.
In the case of these plugs, however, the key is breaking the carbon bond, not providing a lubricant. This means soaking with something that will dissolve the carbon. In the second video I posted, the guy used a particular Ford Motorcraft product. It looked like SeaFoam when he sprayed it in the spark plug well.
Since I had SeaFoam on hand I used it, let them soak about an hour, backed them off a 1/4 turn, let the SeaFoam soak another hour or so, and they screwed right out.
I am not proposing that you do this, I am only telling what worked for me.
Just to be clear though, the engine was cold and I never got an impact wrench anywhere near it.
02-02-2014, 02:55 PM
#23
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Join Date: Sep 2013
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The more you two attempt to justify bypassing specific instructions put out by Ford engineers that designed the engine, the more you convince me to stay away from dealerships.
If it works so well and so many techs are doing this, then by all means up-channel it to Ford so they can review and change their instructions.
That aside, I think Steve does not understand simple mechanics. It's not about the electrode. Yeah we all know the sticking is caused by the space between the head and the electrode being filled with deposits. What is missing in this discussion is the fact that we are dealing with two different types of metal. The head is aluminum. The threads on the plug are a harder metal. If you two haven't figured out how this works when an impact wrench is thrown into the mix, then I seriously think you shouldn't be working at a dealership on cars. Or even dispensing this advice at all. In fact, where is Ford service rep that is on this forum? I'd like to see him/her chime in about their techs doing this.
I invite you to include them in this discussion. Not trying to come across as rude, as a Ford customer I simply want to be reassured that Ford is on the same page as their service techs and said techs know what they are doing.
If it works so well and so many techs are doing this, then by all means up-channel it to Ford so they can review and change their instructions.
That aside, I think Steve does not understand simple mechanics. It's not about the electrode. Yeah we all know the sticking is caused by the space between the head and the electrode being filled with deposits. What is missing in this discussion is the fact that we are dealing with two different types of metal. The head is aluminum. The threads on the plug are a harder metal. If you two haven't figured out how this works when an impact wrench is thrown into the mix, then I seriously think you shouldn't be working at a dealership on cars. Or even dispensing this advice at all. In fact, where is Ford service rep that is on this forum? I'd like to see him/her chime in about their techs doing this.
I invite you to include them in this discussion. Not trying to come across as rude, as a Ford customer I simply want to be reassured that Ford is on the same page as their service techs and said techs know what they are doing.
The issue with these plugs sticking in the heads has nothing at all to do with the threads on the plug or in the head. They've been threading steel spark plugs into aluminum heads for decades and other than the odd design flaw like some of the earlier Ford modular four thread heads that would spit spark plugs it's really a non-issue.
The issue is the sleeve that extends beyond the threads.
The only way I can imagine any damage being done to the heads by using an impact would be if you put heavy pressure against the impact and continued spinning the plug long after it was unthreaded or if the threads were previously damaged or corroded in which case you'd cause damage by removing them by hand or with an impact.
If you don't want to use this method then don't but if you take your car somewhere to have the plugs changed you better specify that you do NOT want an impact used and even then I'd suggest that you also stand there and watch the tech do the job and I don't just mean at a dealership either, if there's one thing mechanics everywhere are exceptionally good at it's figuring out better ways to do things to make their hobs easier and more productive and they will use every short cut that they know.
I've worked in Ford dealerships for 24 years, I've seen hack mechanics and I've worked with some of the best mechanics in the business so when I have a question I'm lucky enough to have connections to get the best answer.
As for Ford (or any manufacturer) and their techs being on the same page, I promise that the techs do know the factory procedures but I can also promise that if they find a way that works better they'll use it. It's just a fact of the business.
Another unfortunate fact of this business is that you could have two techs working side by side and one could be the best ever while the other I wouldn't trust to put air in my tires, I know a guy at a dealership I used to work at years ago that was a Senior Master Tech and he was an absolute butcher.
-Steve
EDIT- This procedure is not endorsed or encouraged by Ford it's employees, techs or myself. Anyone using this procedure is doing so of their own free will with full knowledge that it contradicts the Ford service procedures and any damage caused is solely the responsibility of the person attempting it.
Last edited by Steve@Tasca; 02-03-2014 at 12:49 PM.
02-02-2014, 03:03 PM
#24
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BTW, IMHO the most important item to remember when changing 3 Valve plugs is not the issue of hot or cold, impact or ratchet. I think the most important key is decarbonization. Not necessarily decarbonizing with engine running and chemical being introduced, but decarbonizing by soaking the plug.
It is the natural tendency to soak something with your favorite penetrating oil, whether that be AeroKroil, PB Blaster, Liquid Wrench or whatever it might be.
In the case of these plugs, however, the key is breaking the carbon bond, not providing a lubricant. This means soaking with something that will dissolve the carbon. In the second video I posted, the guy used a particular Ford Motorcraft product. It looked like SeaFoam when he sprayed it in the spark plug well.
Since I had SeaFoam on hand I used it, let them soak about an hour, backed them off a 1/4 turn, let the SeaFoam soak another hour or so, and they screwed right out.
I am not proposing that you do this, I am only telling what worked for me.
Just to be clear though, the engine was cold and I never got an impact wrench anywhere near it.
It is the natural tendency to soak something with your favorite penetrating oil, whether that be AeroKroil, PB Blaster, Liquid Wrench or whatever it might be.
In the case of these plugs, however, the key is breaking the carbon bond, not providing a lubricant. This means soaking with something that will dissolve the carbon. In the second video I posted, the guy used a particular Ford Motorcraft product. It looked like SeaFoam when he sprayed it in the spark plug well.
Since I had SeaFoam on hand I used it, let them soak about an hour, backed them off a 1/4 turn, let the SeaFoam soak another hour or so, and they screwed right out.
I am not proposing that you do this, I am only telling what worked for me.
Just to be clear though, the engine was cold and I never got an impact wrench anywhere near it.
-Steve
02-03-2014, 11:51 AM
#26
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: North East Texas on the Red River
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Ricardo,
Since I missed it, I wonder if you would please point out where anyone in this thread "encouraged" the use of an impact wrench. The subject was discussed, but I never saw it "encouraged."
Also, I hope you are not including me in your statement about Ford dealership guys. Although there's nothing at all wrong with working at a Ford dealership, I've never worked for one in my life.
Since I missed it, I wonder if you would please point out where anyone in this thread "encouraged" the use of an impact wrench. The subject was discussed, but I never saw it "encouraged."
Also, I hope you are not including me in your statement about Ford dealership guys. Although there's nothing at all wrong with working at a Ford dealership, I've never worked for one in my life.
02-03-2014, 12:29 PM
#27
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Ask yourself this, if you took your car in to have the plugs done would you be happy paying an extra 1-2 hours labor at $120+ an hour PER cylinder to have the broken off plugs removed by a tech that didn't use every trick he/she knew to get the job done quickly and efficiently?
EDIT- This procedure is not endorsed or encouraged by Ford it's employees, techs or myself. Anyone using this procedure is doing so of their own free will with full knowledge that it contradicts the Ford service procedures and any damage caused is solely the responsibility of the person attempting it.
Last edited by Steve@Tasca; 02-03-2014 at 12:53 PM.
02-03-2014, 12:51 PM
#28
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Join Date: Sep 2013
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"EDIT- This procedure is not endorsed or encouraged by Ford it's employees, techs or myself. Anyone using this procedure is doing so of their own free will with full knowledge that it contradicts the Ford service procedures and any damage caused is solely the responsibility of the person attempting it."
I'm not encouraging anything either, I'm here discussing it and using my connections with professional technicians to aid in the discussion.
I am still curious about how you feel about paying that extra labor to extract those broken spark plug sleeves.
.
Last edited by Steve@Tasca; 02-03-2014 at 12:55 PM.
02-04-2014, 10:40 AM
#29
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Last post for me in this thread, I asked my friend the tech if he had ever seen a head damaged by using an impact to remove plugs and this is a copy and paste of his response.
"No. I have however seen people push the broken part of the plug further into the cylinder using the aftermarket lyle extractor kit. then the head has to come off."
Again, I'm not encouraging anyone to do anything and if you do it you're doing it at your own risk with full knowledge that it's not a Ford approved method.
I'm just trying to make sure as much information about the procedure is made available since the subject has been brought up.
-Steve
"No. I have however seen people push the broken part of the plug further into the cylinder using the aftermarket lyle extractor kit. then the head has to come off."
Again, I'm not encouraging anyone to do anything and if you do it you're doing it at your own risk with full knowledge that it's not a Ford approved method.
I'm just trying to make sure as much information about the procedure is made available since the subject has been brought up.
-Steve