New gears are howling.
04-13-2006, 08:40 AM
#1
5th Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location:
Posts: 3,768
New gears are howling.
As some know, I just got a set of Ford Racing 3.55s put in last week. From the time I left the shop, I have been getting this high pitched howl from 2000 to 2500 rpms in fourth gear. It's pretty noticeable. I talked to the mechanic at the shop, and he said that they will quite down after they wear in, and to bring it back in 500 miles if they don't. Well, it's been 500 miles, and they haven't quieted down. I'm going to take it back in tomorrow to have them open the diff, and see what's going on. My questions are:
1) Should my new gears be howling like this?
2) I've heard that my new gears may already be damaged from driving them with them howling. Is this true? Do I need to replace the new gears?
1) Should my new gears be howling like this?
2) I've heard that my new gears may already be damaged from driving them with them howling. Is this true? Do I need to replace the new gears?
04-13-2006, 11:17 AM
#4
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Laredo, TEXAS
Posts: 6,054
RE: New gears are howling.
ORIGINAL: Twisted
As some know, I just got a set of Ford Racing 3.55s put in last week. From the time I left the shop, I have been getting this high pitched howl from 2000 to 2500 rpms in fourth gear. It's pretty noticeable. I talked to the mechanic at the shop, and he said that they will quite down after they wear in, and to bring it back in 500 miles if they don't. Well, it's been 500 miles, and they haven't quieted down. I'm going to take it back in tomorrow to have them open the diff, and see what's going on. My questions are:
1) Should my new gears be howling like this?
2) I've heard that my new gears may already be damaged from driving them with them howling. Is this true? Do I need to replace the new gears?
As some know, I just got a set of Ford Racing 3.55s put in last week. From the time I left the shop, I have been getting this high pitched howl from 2000 to 2500 rpms in fourth gear. It's pretty noticeable. I talked to the mechanic at the shop, and he said that they will quite down after they wear in, and to bring it back in 500 miles if they don't. Well, it's been 500 miles, and they haven't quieted down. I'm going to take it back in tomorrow to have them open the diff, and see what's going on. My questions are:
1) Should my new gears be howling like this?
2) I've heard that my new gears may already be damaged from driving them with them howling. Is this true? Do I need to replace the new gears?
04-13-2006, 12:31 PM
#6
1st Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location:
Posts: 128
RE: New gears are howling.
They should not howl or make any noise. Read this
Diagnosing Drivetrain Noise
Why worry about that differential noise? Sooner or later, the cause will make itself obvious!
Many things can go wrong inside a differential. Although the hints are often subtle, most impending failures give fair warning in the form of noise.
Several situations can create ring-and-pinion noise. If the gears have been quiet and begin to howl, they are probably worn or wearing. If the gears howl during deceleration only, it’s possible that the pinion-bearing preload has loosened. Howling under acceleration at all speeds indicates that something in the differential -- gears, pinion or carrier bearings -- has worn or no longer keeps the gear alignment correct. If the gears howl while accelerating over a certain speed range, but not all speeds, it’s likely that the gears are worn due to lubrication failure or overloading. When a newly installed gear set howls, suspect the design or setup.
A common problem is worn carrier bearings, as indicated by a low-pitch rumble above 20 mph. On vehicles with C-clip axles the noise may vary while negotiating turns. Worn pinion bearings can cause whirring noises at all speeds, under deceleration and/or acceleration. Pinion bearings tend to whir, rather than rumble because the pinion is turning several times faster (depending on gear ratio) that the carrier. Badly worn bearings can also cause howl if they do not support the gears correctly.
Worn wheel bearings can be difficult to determine. A very bad wheel bearing typically makes itself heard with great clarity; it’s the bearing that is going bad, but not destroyed that is hard to find. Turning back and forth from hard right to hard left can identify the culprit; however, I’ve been fooled by right-front wheel bearings that make noise when turning right (which heavily loads the inside-left-front wheel bearing, but also loads the outside-right-front bearing).
One common situation that may not make any noise: The pinion spins, but the tires don’t rotate. Broken spider gears can render the differential immobile, and usually make a loud, crunching sound as they make their final departure. A broken ring gear will allow the differential to propel the vehicle for about eight feet at a time, then bang or grind as the section with broken teeth tries to engage the pinion. Depending on ratio, a broken pinion tooth (or teeth) will clunk about every two or three feet.
A broken axle is easily determined. After it breaks, a C-clip design axle can be pulled out of the housing without unbolting anything -- or may even find it’s own way out. On many bolt-in-design axles, the wheel will give the broken axle shaft away by cambering in at an angle.
A high spot on a gear tooth may sound similar to a broken gear, but will only make noise while accelerating or decelerating, since the spot appears on just one side of the offending tooth. A high spot on the ring gear will make a heavy clicking sound about every eight feet; a high spot on the pinion makes noise every two or three feet and is much more pronounced due to its higher frequency.
Whether large or small, differential noise is telling you something. Listen carefully! If in doubt, pull off the cover or remove the third member for a closer look. Catching a bad part before is ruins others is definitely worth the effort.
gt0699b.jpg (7284 bytes)
Ring & Pinion Service can custom rebuild your posi to be smooth or aggressive
If you’ve been left hanging with a "mystery" differential noise that still refuses to make itself clearly understood, then hopefully this info will lend some more insight.
Anyone who has been involved with four-wheel-drive vehicles has probably heard of or experienced positraction (posi) "chatter". Posi chatter is noise that is very recognizable and happens when there is too much friction in the clutches. Some hardcore offroaders set up their posi this way intentionally. The noise sounds like someone is pounding on the rearend with a huge sledgehammer. It is most prevalent when backing up in a parking lot (when everyone around can stare), and gets worse as the differential heats up. It also tends to show up on freeway off-ramps and when turning while taking off from a stop sign.
Broken spider gears can sound similar to posi chatter, only more consistent, regardless of oil temperature. Broken spider gears will make a grinding or banging sound any time the vehicle is making a turn, and, if they are bad enough, even when going straight.
Driveline vibrations can be caused by several problems. Worn universal joints or a driveline that is out of balance are often the problem, but driveline angle can cause a balanced driveline with good U-joints to vibrate. If the U-joints are bad, they can cause several different noises from squeaking, to clunking, to grinding, to vibrations. If the driveline is out of balance, it will vibrate with a steady pitch that increases as the vehicle speed increases. If the pinion shaft is out of alignment and not parallel to the transmission yoke, the difference in the angles between the front and back U-joints can cause the driveline to vibrate. If the vibration is due to improper angles, it will create a cyclic sound that increases and decreases in intensity and is not steady. An out-of-alignment problem can also be identified by the change in the noise when accelerating or decelerating. As the pinion yoke torques up from acceleration or down from deceleration, the rear U-joint angle changes and causes the vibration to change.
A worn side-gear bore in the carrier case will usually cause a clicking sound as the vehicle is coasting down from speeds of about 20 miles per hour to a stop. If the bore that supports the side gear becomes too worn to hold the side gear in place the side gear will "roll over" the spider pinion gears and will make a clicking noise.
If your differential problem is still not clear and you don’t want to take the time to look inside for more data, you can always drive it until it breaks and the problem will be much clearer, although much more expensive.
Gear Talk is written by Randy Lyman, founder and President of Randy's Ring & Pinion.
Originally published in Jan/Feb 1998 issues of 4WD & Sport Utility Magazine.
4X4 BOOKS . com
World's Best Selection of 4X4, Jeep, & Offroad Handbooks, Trail Guides, Videos, Maps, GPS and More
4X4NOW Feature Page
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Diagnosing Drivetrain Noise
Why worry about that differential noise? Sooner or later, the cause will make itself obvious!
Many things can go wrong inside a differential. Although the hints are often subtle, most impending failures give fair warning in the form of noise.
Several situations can create ring-and-pinion noise. If the gears have been quiet and begin to howl, they are probably worn or wearing. If the gears howl during deceleration only, it’s possible that the pinion-bearing preload has loosened. Howling under acceleration at all speeds indicates that something in the differential -- gears, pinion or carrier bearings -- has worn or no longer keeps the gear alignment correct. If the gears howl while accelerating over a certain speed range, but not all speeds, it’s likely that the gears are worn due to lubrication failure or overloading. When a newly installed gear set howls, suspect the design or setup.
A common problem is worn carrier bearings, as indicated by a low-pitch rumble above 20 mph. On vehicles with C-clip axles the noise may vary while negotiating turns. Worn pinion bearings can cause whirring noises at all speeds, under deceleration and/or acceleration. Pinion bearings tend to whir, rather than rumble because the pinion is turning several times faster (depending on gear ratio) that the carrier. Badly worn bearings can also cause howl if they do not support the gears correctly.
Worn wheel bearings can be difficult to determine. A very bad wheel bearing typically makes itself heard with great clarity; it’s the bearing that is going bad, but not destroyed that is hard to find. Turning back and forth from hard right to hard left can identify the culprit; however, I’ve been fooled by right-front wheel bearings that make noise when turning right (which heavily loads the inside-left-front wheel bearing, but also loads the outside-right-front bearing).
One common situation that may not make any noise: The pinion spins, but the tires don’t rotate. Broken spider gears can render the differential immobile, and usually make a loud, crunching sound as they make their final departure. A broken ring gear will allow the differential to propel the vehicle for about eight feet at a time, then bang or grind as the section with broken teeth tries to engage the pinion. Depending on ratio, a broken pinion tooth (or teeth) will clunk about every two or three feet.
A broken axle is easily determined. After it breaks, a C-clip design axle can be pulled out of the housing without unbolting anything -- or may even find it’s own way out. On many bolt-in-design axles, the wheel will give the broken axle shaft away by cambering in at an angle.
A high spot on a gear tooth may sound similar to a broken gear, but will only make noise while accelerating or decelerating, since the spot appears on just one side of the offending tooth. A high spot on the ring gear will make a heavy clicking sound about every eight feet; a high spot on the pinion makes noise every two or three feet and is much more pronounced due to its higher frequency.
Whether large or small, differential noise is telling you something. Listen carefully! If in doubt, pull off the cover or remove the third member for a closer look. Catching a bad part before is ruins others is definitely worth the effort.
gt0699b.jpg (7284 bytes)
Ring & Pinion Service can custom rebuild your posi to be smooth or aggressive
If you’ve been left hanging with a "mystery" differential noise that still refuses to make itself clearly understood, then hopefully this info will lend some more insight.
Anyone who has been involved with four-wheel-drive vehicles has probably heard of or experienced positraction (posi) "chatter". Posi chatter is noise that is very recognizable and happens when there is too much friction in the clutches. Some hardcore offroaders set up their posi this way intentionally. The noise sounds like someone is pounding on the rearend with a huge sledgehammer. It is most prevalent when backing up in a parking lot (when everyone around can stare), and gets worse as the differential heats up. It also tends to show up on freeway off-ramps and when turning while taking off from a stop sign.
Broken spider gears can sound similar to posi chatter, only more consistent, regardless of oil temperature. Broken spider gears will make a grinding or banging sound any time the vehicle is making a turn, and, if they are bad enough, even when going straight.
Driveline vibrations can be caused by several problems. Worn universal joints or a driveline that is out of balance are often the problem, but driveline angle can cause a balanced driveline with good U-joints to vibrate. If the U-joints are bad, they can cause several different noises from squeaking, to clunking, to grinding, to vibrations. If the driveline is out of balance, it will vibrate with a steady pitch that increases as the vehicle speed increases. If the pinion shaft is out of alignment and not parallel to the transmission yoke, the difference in the angles between the front and back U-joints can cause the driveline to vibrate. If the vibration is due to improper angles, it will create a cyclic sound that increases and decreases in intensity and is not steady. An out-of-alignment problem can also be identified by the change in the noise when accelerating or decelerating. As the pinion yoke torques up from acceleration or down from deceleration, the rear U-joint angle changes and causes the vibration to change.
A worn side-gear bore in the carrier case will usually cause a clicking sound as the vehicle is coasting down from speeds of about 20 miles per hour to a stop. If the bore that supports the side gear becomes too worn to hold the side gear in place the side gear will "roll over" the spider pinion gears and will make a clicking noise.
If your differential problem is still not clear and you don’t want to take the time to look inside for more data, you can always drive it until it breaks and the problem will be much clearer, although much more expensive.
Gear Talk is written by Randy Lyman, founder and President of Randy's Ring & Pinion.
Originally published in Jan/Feb 1998 issues of 4WD & Sport Utility Magazine.
4X4 BOOKS . com
World's Best Selection of 4X4, Jeep, & Offroad Handbooks, Trail Guides, Videos, Maps, GPS and More
4X4NOW Feature Page
4X4NOW Trail Reports | Moab 4WD Trails
4X4NOW "How-To" | 4X4NOW Buildups
GPSNOW | 4X4BOOKS | MAPNOW
04-13-2006, 03:18 PM
#9
5th Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location:
Posts: 3,768
RE: New gears are howling.
ORIGINAL: kevstang87
They should not howl or make any noise. Read this
Diagnosing Drivetrain Noise
Why worry about that differential noise? Sooner or later, the cause will make itself obvious!
Many things can go wrong inside a differential. Although the hints are often subtle, most impending failures give fair warning in the form of noise.
Several situations can create ring-and-pinion noise. If the gears have been quiet and begin to howl, they are probably worn or wearing. If the gears howl during deceleration only, it’s possible that the pinion-bearing preload has loosened. Howling under acceleration at all speeds indicates that something in the differential -- gears, pinion or carrier bearings -- has worn or no longer keeps the gear alignment correct. If the gears howl while accelerating over a certain speed range, but not all speeds, it’s likely that the gears are worn due to lubrication failure or overloading. When a newly installed gear set howls, suspect the design or setup.
A common problem is worn carrier bearings, as indicated by a low-pitch rumble above 20 mph. On vehicles with C-clip axles the noise may vary while negotiating turns. Worn pinion bearings can cause whirring noises at all speeds, under deceleration and/or acceleration. Pinion bearings tend to whir, rather than rumble because the pinion is turning several times faster (depending on gear ratio) that the carrier. Badly worn bearings can also cause howl if they do not support the gears correctly.
Worn wheel bearings can be difficult to determine. A very bad wheel bearing typically makes itself heard with great clarity; it’s the bearing that is going bad, but not destroyed that is hard to find. Turning back and forth from hard right to hard left can identify the culprit; however, I’ve been fooled by right-front wheel bearings that make noise when turning right (which heavily loads the inside-left-front wheel bearing, but also loads the outside-right-front bearing).
One common situation that may not make any noise: The pinion spins, but the tires don’t rotate. Broken spider gears can render the differential immobile, and usually make a loud, crunching sound as they make their final departure. A broken ring gear will allow the differential to propel the vehicle for about eight feet at a time, then bang or grind as the section with broken teeth tries to engage the pinion. Depending on ratio, a broken pinion tooth (or teeth) will clunk about every two or three feet.
A broken axle is easily determined. After it breaks, a C-clip design axle can be pulled out of the housing without unbolting anything -- or may even find it’s own way out. On many bolt-in-design axles, the wheel will give the broken axle shaft away by cambering in at an angle.
A high spot on a gear tooth may sound similar to a broken gear, but will only make noise while accelerating or decelerating, since the spot appears on just one side of the offending tooth. A high spot on the ring gear will make a heavy clicking sound about every eight feet; a high spot on the pinion makes noise every two or three feet and is much more pronounced due to its higher frequency.
Whether large or small, differential noise is telling you something. Listen carefully! If in doubt, pull off the cover or remove the third member for a closer look. Catching a bad part before is ruins others is definitely worth the effort.
gt0699b.jpg (7284 bytes)
Ring & Pinion Service can custom rebuild your posi to be smooth or aggressive
If you’ve been left hanging with a "mystery" differential noise that still refuses to make itself clearly understood, then hopefully this info will lend some more insight.
Anyone who has been involved with four-wheel-drive vehicles has probably heard of or experienced positraction (posi) "chatter". Posi chatter is noise that is very recognizable and happens when there is too much friction in the clutches. Some hardcore offroaders set up their posi this way intentionally. The noise sounds like someone is pounding on the rearend with a huge sledgehammer. It is most prevalent when backing up in a parking lot (when everyone around can stare), and gets worse as the differential heats up. It also tends to show up on freeway off-ramps and when turning while taking off from a stop sign.
Broken spider gears can sound similar to posi chatter, only more consistent, regardless of oil temperature. Broken spider gears will make a grinding or banging sound any time the vehicle is making a turn, and, if they are bad enough, even when going straight.
Driveline vibrations can be caused by several problems. Worn universal joints or a driveline that is out of balance are often the problem, but driveline angle can cause a balanced driveline with good U-joints to vibrate. If the U-joints are bad, they can cause several different noises from squeaking, to clunking, to grinding, to vibrations. If the driveline is out of balance, it will vibrate with a steady pitch that increases as the vehicle speed increases. If the pinion shaft is out of alignment and not parallel to the transmission yoke, the difference in the angles between the front and back U-joints can cause the driveline to vibrate. If the vibration is due to improper angles, it will create a cyclic sound that increases and decreases in intensity and is not steady. An out-of-alignment problem can also be identified by the change in the noise when accelerating or decelerating. As the pinion yoke torques up from acceleration or down from deceleration, the rear U-joint angle changes and causes the vibration to change.
A worn side-gear bore in the carrier case will usually cause a clicking sound as the vehicle is coasting down from speeds of about 20 miles per hour to a stop. If the bore that supports the side gear becomes too worn to hold the side gear in place the side gear will "roll over" the spider pinion gears and will make a clicking noise.
If your differential problem is still not clear and you don’t want to take the time to look inside for more data, you can always drive it until it breaks and the problem will be much clearer, although much more expensive.
Gear Talk is written by Randy Lyman, founder and President of Randy's Ring & Pinion.
Originally published in Jan/Feb 1998 issues of 4WD & Sport Utility Magazine.
4X4 BOOKS . com
World's Best Selection of 4X4, Jeep, & Offroad Handbooks, Trail Guides, Videos, Maps, GPS and More
4X4NOW Feature Page
4X4NOW Trail Reports | Moab 4WD Trails
4X4NOW "How-To" | 4X4NOW Buildups
GPSNOW | 4X4BOOKS | MAPNOW
They should not howl or make any noise. Read this
Diagnosing Drivetrain Noise
Why worry about that differential noise? Sooner or later, the cause will make itself obvious!
Many things can go wrong inside a differential. Although the hints are often subtle, most impending failures give fair warning in the form of noise.
Several situations can create ring-and-pinion noise. If the gears have been quiet and begin to howl, they are probably worn or wearing. If the gears howl during deceleration only, it’s possible that the pinion-bearing preload has loosened. Howling under acceleration at all speeds indicates that something in the differential -- gears, pinion or carrier bearings -- has worn or no longer keeps the gear alignment correct. If the gears howl while accelerating over a certain speed range, but not all speeds, it’s likely that the gears are worn due to lubrication failure or overloading. When a newly installed gear set howls, suspect the design or setup.
A common problem is worn carrier bearings, as indicated by a low-pitch rumble above 20 mph. On vehicles with C-clip axles the noise may vary while negotiating turns. Worn pinion bearings can cause whirring noises at all speeds, under deceleration and/or acceleration. Pinion bearings tend to whir, rather than rumble because the pinion is turning several times faster (depending on gear ratio) that the carrier. Badly worn bearings can also cause howl if they do not support the gears correctly.
Worn wheel bearings can be difficult to determine. A very bad wheel bearing typically makes itself heard with great clarity; it’s the bearing that is going bad, but not destroyed that is hard to find. Turning back and forth from hard right to hard left can identify the culprit; however, I’ve been fooled by right-front wheel bearings that make noise when turning right (which heavily loads the inside-left-front wheel bearing, but also loads the outside-right-front bearing).
One common situation that may not make any noise: The pinion spins, but the tires don’t rotate. Broken spider gears can render the differential immobile, and usually make a loud, crunching sound as they make their final departure. A broken ring gear will allow the differential to propel the vehicle for about eight feet at a time, then bang or grind as the section with broken teeth tries to engage the pinion. Depending on ratio, a broken pinion tooth (or teeth) will clunk about every two or three feet.
A broken axle is easily determined. After it breaks, a C-clip design axle can be pulled out of the housing without unbolting anything -- or may even find it’s own way out. On many bolt-in-design axles, the wheel will give the broken axle shaft away by cambering in at an angle.
A high spot on a gear tooth may sound similar to a broken gear, but will only make noise while accelerating or decelerating, since the spot appears on just one side of the offending tooth. A high spot on the ring gear will make a heavy clicking sound about every eight feet; a high spot on the pinion makes noise every two or three feet and is much more pronounced due to its higher frequency.
Whether large or small, differential noise is telling you something. Listen carefully! If in doubt, pull off the cover or remove the third member for a closer look. Catching a bad part before is ruins others is definitely worth the effort.
gt0699b.jpg (7284 bytes)
Ring & Pinion Service can custom rebuild your posi to be smooth or aggressive
If you’ve been left hanging with a "mystery" differential noise that still refuses to make itself clearly understood, then hopefully this info will lend some more insight.
Anyone who has been involved with four-wheel-drive vehicles has probably heard of or experienced positraction (posi) "chatter". Posi chatter is noise that is very recognizable and happens when there is too much friction in the clutches. Some hardcore offroaders set up their posi this way intentionally. The noise sounds like someone is pounding on the rearend with a huge sledgehammer. It is most prevalent when backing up in a parking lot (when everyone around can stare), and gets worse as the differential heats up. It also tends to show up on freeway off-ramps and when turning while taking off from a stop sign.
Broken spider gears can sound similar to posi chatter, only more consistent, regardless of oil temperature. Broken spider gears will make a grinding or banging sound any time the vehicle is making a turn, and, if they are bad enough, even when going straight.
Driveline vibrations can be caused by several problems. Worn universal joints or a driveline that is out of balance are often the problem, but driveline angle can cause a balanced driveline with good U-joints to vibrate. If the U-joints are bad, they can cause several different noises from squeaking, to clunking, to grinding, to vibrations. If the driveline is out of balance, it will vibrate with a steady pitch that increases as the vehicle speed increases. If the pinion shaft is out of alignment and not parallel to the transmission yoke, the difference in the angles between the front and back U-joints can cause the driveline to vibrate. If the vibration is due to improper angles, it will create a cyclic sound that increases and decreases in intensity and is not steady. An out-of-alignment problem can also be identified by the change in the noise when accelerating or decelerating. As the pinion yoke torques up from acceleration or down from deceleration, the rear U-joint angle changes and causes the vibration to change.
A worn side-gear bore in the carrier case will usually cause a clicking sound as the vehicle is coasting down from speeds of about 20 miles per hour to a stop. If the bore that supports the side gear becomes too worn to hold the side gear in place the side gear will "roll over" the spider pinion gears and will make a clicking noise.
If your differential problem is still not clear and you don’t want to take the time to look inside for more data, you can always drive it until it breaks and the problem will be much clearer, although much more expensive.
Gear Talk is written by Randy Lyman, founder and President of Randy's Ring & Pinion.
Originally published in Jan/Feb 1998 issues of 4WD & Sport Utility Magazine.
4X4 BOOKS . com
World's Best Selection of 4X4, Jeep, & Offroad Handbooks, Trail Guides, Videos, Maps, GPS and More
4X4NOW Feature Page
4X4NOW Trail Reports | Moab 4WD Trails
4X4NOW "How-To" | 4X4NOW Buildups
GPSNOW | 4X4BOOKS | MAPNOW
