3904life

and and remember to change the timing set so you can run straight up atleast, factory is set -4 for emisions on the 351m/400

67mustang302

It's not 302 logic, it's basic engine principles logic. Yes, a larger engine needs a larger cam/port etc. But here's the problem with the Cleve heads....they have like a 220cc intake port, and flow LESS volume than an AFR with a 165cc intake port, which means, not only can that AFR head flow more air, but since it does it with a smaller port, that means the air is flowing at a much higher velocity. Port size itself is really meaningless, what matters is flow VOLUME and flow VELOCITY, and this is true for ANY internal combustion engine. Velocity is determined by the flow volumethrough a givenport size, you want more volume with less port, Cleve's are backwards, they have less volume with more port. It's like a relationship between electrical flow and voltage, or water flow and pressure in a way. You need to be able to get a large enough volume of air into the engine to make power, but you need the velocity to move that air. The problem with Cleveland heads back in the day wasn't volume(though now there are smaller heads that flow even more volume) but velocity. Unless a Cleve starts turning some serious rpm, it never really generates the velocity in the portto be an efficient power maker. And most "normal" 5.0's aren't that much. But I can pretty much garuntee that if you built a 351Cleveland with stock 2V or 4V heads that turned less than 6,000rpm n/a like my lil 302 does, it won't make near the same power. A 400 will make slightly more peak hp, but have only medicore torque, and a crappy power band and get prolly not even half the mileage of my 302, and because of the increased weight from the larger engine, it's unlikely it will be able to turn out the same ET's. The problem isn't the general design of the cylinder head, it was the implementation. Those heads were designed back in the day when everyone(Ford especially) thought bigger was better, and that's why you had high HP cars that barely turned 14 second 1/4 miles. The ports are simply too big and shaped wrong. That's why CHI has come out with new Cleveland heads, they took the basic design, and shaped the port properly, sized it down, and now have a Cleveland head that again has a smaller port than even a stock 4V head but flows WAY more air and a WAY higher velocity. CHI heads on a 400 Cleveland vs stock 4V heads will literally be the difference between about 350hp and 550hp. And if you don't believe me on that look at the Engine Master's challenge on CHI's site.Dave Storlienbuilt a 366cidCleveland that with a 6,500rpm limit and a FLAT tappet cam, produced 605 peak hp at 6,500rpm and 532ft-lbs at 5,000rpm with an AVERAGE hp(between 2,500-6,500rpm)of 420hp and AVERAGE torque of 480ft-lbs. There's no way a 2V or a 4V head will make that kinda peak power, let alone have that kind of a power band. It's because the stock Cleveland heads are junk, and porting can't fix it, they're too open in all the wrong places. Clevelands are good if you use good heads, but using stock heads is a waste of time and money if you want performance.

2 kwik

WHY ARE YOU USING MY CAR FOR YOUR AVATAR?
there isn't alot of parts avl..yes it has some tq. HELL it was used to pull around the boat.. the LTD.

3904life

2v cleveland heads are nice for street cars, and they are cheaper than aftermarket heads, and yes they cleveland spun high but the 351M/400 is a bit different engine, go to ford-trucks.com and learn a thing or 2 about the modifieds they are pretty good engines once u get to know the tricks behind em

WhiteWindsor

I have alway read that the M engines were more prone to cracking than the W engines. Have read that the modified was lacking thickness somewhere (cant remember where). I have always been told that they are problems. But what do i know i dont have one.
Keith

http://s194.photobucket.com/albums/z112/keithswearingen/?action=view¤t=c3a71cc9.pbw

3904life

btw to the guy who said he could make a flater torque curve http://www.tmeyerinc.com/400stroker.html
there ya go look at that 400

67mustang302

Actually, thank you cuz you just proved my point. Look at the 3rd picture down on the left hand side...see the big "3V" stamped on the front of the head on the right and the "CHI" on the left? That's a CHI "3V" aluminum Cleve head, the one I was mentioning earlier. It's not a stock head, cuz if it were it'd have about 110-150hp less. Also note the 4th photo down on the right has the "CHI" and "3V" stamped on the manifold(you need their manifold in order to use their heads since the ports are located differently due to the reshaping). That's my point exactly, that with a small port and a well flowing head excellent power can be had from the Cleveland or Windsor, but it won't happen with a stock head. I have nothing against any performance engine, but it has to have good heads(among other things). Everyone who builds Clevelands pretty much uses stock heads and robs themselves of a crapload of horsepower and torque everywhere. That's prolly CHI's3V 185cc intake port head too, the smallest they make(as opposed to the stock Cleve heads that had anywhere from a 220-235cc intake port)

92civy

well guys i talked to the guy last night. he said the engie has pedistal mount 1.7 rockers. it has about >60k on it. it comes with the c6 tranny. it also has new chrom valve covers, and is complete minus the intake. i could get the engine and tranny with th enginem plate for 500-550 CAD. the headers he hasnt decided on a price but they are for the 400 in the fox chassis, as he was goign to do this but used a 351c instead.

do i really need the plate if i get some mounts? and what else is goignt o be needed to get this in the bay and running?

my77stang

is he giving you a distributor with it? what about accessories - your gonna need the right brackets for alternator, power steering pump, etc.

i still say get the plate and headers if you can, sounded like it was a good deal.

67, im not trying to say that stock C or M heads are the best things out there, but they DO outperform stock w based heads. the guy is getting a package deal for a hellofa price. i dont think you could wind up with the nut his motor will have (and a C6 tranny) for around 500 bucks.

92civy

he is also throwing in the oil pna to fit in the fox. this is for no charge, as he needs the stock one for his enigne.