5.0 Mustang or 5.0 RX7? Help me decide...
10-08-2008, 06:46 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Idaho
Posts: 29
5.0 Mustang or 5.0 RX7? Help me decide...
***Warning: long post. Not for those who don't like to read.***
I'm going to be posting this on both www.mustangforums.com and www.v8rx7forum.com and see what wisdom I can eke out of both camps. Both are going to be biased in their own way, and I'm not swimming in money so I'm going to see what's best for my buck.
So, the question of the day is, do I build up the Mustang I have (an 89 5.0 Convertible with AOD trans, good paint, new top, and leather interior), or go for a second-gen RX7 and swap the 5.0 in?
Here's da facts:
I'm going to go manual with either car. No matter what, I'm not using a slushbox for performance. So in either case, I need a T5 and the requisite parts to make this trans work with whichever car I go with.
The Mustang has about 200k on it and it's about bone stock. An automatic, convertible, Fox Mustang wasn't my first choice for performance but hey, I got it off of a friend for 500 bones running and driving because he's scared of gas prices and doesn't know how to turn a wrench. To my knowledge, the car is bone stock, which is good and bad: good because no one has ravaged it yet (I've seem some ****in' dumbassed things done by people who didn't know what they were doing), but then again, nothing has been 'fixed' either, and there's lots to fix on a Mustang.
However, I have, with that purchase, gotten everything I need as far as the engine and fuel injection setup goes. No parts runs necessary, and I'm not swapping in a 'mystery engine' from the classifieds or junkyard. Plus, I get to drive it while I'm contemplating my next move.
The Mustang is going to take, likely, thousands of dollars worth of work to make it handle, brake, and steer like the RX7 will do right out of the box. However, there's the Maximum Motorsports Road Race Box, which while not exactly cheap, isn't expensive for what you get: a tuned package that, in a 90 LX 5.0, holds a very high place in the slalom records for Motor Trend. Like, third or fourth overall, right behind a couple of Viper ACRs. Obviously, there's more to this chassis than what came from the factory - although, one can't say much for the original 'engineering', if it can even be called that. (Mustang guys and gals, just remember all of the time you've spent fixing dumb **** on your own cars - my cousin is a 5.0/Mustang freak and I'm all too aware.)
However, the powerplant in the Mustang is a good piece, so long as you're not greedy for more than about 450 hp. (Let me get a car with that kind of power first and see if I need more, shall we?) It's a pretty easy path to making that kind of power, too, and the advantage of the 5.0 HO is that it's very easy to swap compared to, say, an LT1 - much simpler, less OEM bull**** that doesn't really need to be there. I just sold a 9C1 Caprice with the LT1 about six months ago, and the expense of things like the water pump and ignition systems doesn't thrill me, plus it's more complicated to swap.
I'm a dyed in the wool Chevy guy, and I'm going with the 5.0 motor because, simply, EFI'd SBCs are expensive if you want one that makes power above 5000 rpm (I'm looking at you, TPI). Plus, I hate to say it, but it's also expensive to find one attached to a manual trans that isn't going to shatter - the T5 is ok with the 5.0, but the retarded amount of torque that a 350/LT1/LS puts out will make a quick snack of a T5. Also, Chevy T5s go for stupid prices because they just weren't produced in the same volumes as the Ford version. T56s are a great way to go if you can find one that someone wants to get rid of and you don't mind dumping over a grand for a used tranny that might need a rebuild anyway.
The RX7 chassis is basically what I'd like the Fox chassis to be: rigid, good balance, good geometry from the factory, stout independent rear suspension setup. Also, with a hardtop RX7 I'd have some room to stow musical gear and stuff like that - the trunk of the Mustang might fit a briefcase. And I don't have a briefcase. I have guitar cases and a pedalboard so big I often get asked which keyboard I have when I'm traveling.
Also, I'm considering the resale value of the finished car - I took about a 3500 dollar bath when I sold my SE-R, and I was lucky enough to sell it to an enthusiast who was willing to shell out for what was there. 5.0s aren't exactly going for what they used to (although, really, I don't know why: the later Mustangs are big, heavy pigs in comparison and don't respond as well to mods. Ford added hundreds of pounds of weight to the same underpinnings and, in return, gave Mustang fans an engine that routinely gets bested by V6's, a trend that goes on to this day: the V6 version of the new Camaro has the same output as the Mustang GT. But I digress...). The flipside of that, though, is that the only people in the market for V8 RX7's are those who know what they are and dig the righteous blasphemy that they represent. I could end up getting more out of the RX7 further down the road, but I'd have to find the right buyer.
So I'm looking at this from all angles, and yes, it's a long post - sorry, I like to write, as well as read, and I'm sorry if this is long for you. But I think it could open up a good discussion on both pages and let the research speak for itself.
I'm wondering if the difficulty of the swap - plus acquiring the RX7, the space to work on it, etc - is going to outweigh the difficulty of fixing the Fox chassis. I'd always written off the Fox Mustang as not worth my time because of the chassis problems, but it seems that the few people who road race these cars instead of turning them into boulevard cruisers or drag demons have fixed the problems, and the results...well, let's just say that if I had the money I'd go right out and buy a Corvette. That's the car I want, but can't afford, and unless Motor Trend are lying their asses off, the Maximum Motorsports package will make a Fox out handle a 99 Vette - good enough for me. The RX7 would certainly run with the modded Fox, I would think.
The question is also one of how deep the rabbit hole goes, in terms of cash: It's about $2300 for the Road Race Box from MM, although I can phase it in gradually if I like (first steps: subframe connectors and panhard bar). I can certainly buy an RX7 with a blown motor, and the swap kit from Granny's, for that much. Plus - and this is unusual - I might end up going carb. There's this thing an associate is working on that makes carbs less anathema than I used to think, and if it works, I'll be running a carb (another reason the LT/LS Chevy's are at a disadvantage to me: who wants to pay $400+ just to convert one of these motors to a carb?). So the swap might not be much more involved than swapping a carb'd V8 into basically anything else you can think of.
So there's my dilemma. Sorry for the long post, but it's a complex matter, even without getting into all of the aesthetic nonsense - I don't really care about the domestic vs. import thing so much as I care about having a lot of horsepower and the capability of handling it. To me, that means a V8 (I've looked into the 'high tech' route for years and I can't say I'm all too impressed - horsepower is horsepower) mated to a good, sorted chassis, and there's the rub. I'll turn this over to y'all and see what comes out of it.
Thanks,
CID
I'm going to be posting this on both www.mustangforums.com and www.v8rx7forum.com and see what wisdom I can eke out of both camps. Both are going to be biased in their own way, and I'm not swimming in money so I'm going to see what's best for my buck.
So, the question of the day is, do I build up the Mustang I have (an 89 5.0 Convertible with AOD trans, good paint, new top, and leather interior), or go for a second-gen RX7 and swap the 5.0 in?
Here's da facts:
I'm going to go manual with either car. No matter what, I'm not using a slushbox for performance. So in either case, I need a T5 and the requisite parts to make this trans work with whichever car I go with.
The Mustang has about 200k on it and it's about bone stock. An automatic, convertible, Fox Mustang wasn't my first choice for performance but hey, I got it off of a friend for 500 bones running and driving because he's scared of gas prices and doesn't know how to turn a wrench. To my knowledge, the car is bone stock, which is good and bad: good because no one has ravaged it yet (I've seem some ****in' dumbassed things done by people who didn't know what they were doing), but then again, nothing has been 'fixed' either, and there's lots to fix on a Mustang.
However, I have, with that purchase, gotten everything I need as far as the engine and fuel injection setup goes. No parts runs necessary, and I'm not swapping in a 'mystery engine' from the classifieds or junkyard. Plus, I get to drive it while I'm contemplating my next move.
The Mustang is going to take, likely, thousands of dollars worth of work to make it handle, brake, and steer like the RX7 will do right out of the box. However, there's the Maximum Motorsports Road Race Box, which while not exactly cheap, isn't expensive for what you get: a tuned package that, in a 90 LX 5.0, holds a very high place in the slalom records for Motor Trend. Like, third or fourth overall, right behind a couple of Viper ACRs. Obviously, there's more to this chassis than what came from the factory - although, one can't say much for the original 'engineering', if it can even be called that. (Mustang guys and gals, just remember all of the time you've spent fixing dumb **** on your own cars - my cousin is a 5.0/Mustang freak and I'm all too aware.)
However, the powerplant in the Mustang is a good piece, so long as you're not greedy for more than about 450 hp. (Let me get a car with that kind of power first and see if I need more, shall we?) It's a pretty easy path to making that kind of power, too, and the advantage of the 5.0 HO is that it's very easy to swap compared to, say, an LT1 - much simpler, less OEM bull**** that doesn't really need to be there. I just sold a 9C1 Caprice with the LT1 about six months ago, and the expense of things like the water pump and ignition systems doesn't thrill me, plus it's more complicated to swap.
I'm a dyed in the wool Chevy guy, and I'm going with the 5.0 motor because, simply, EFI'd SBCs are expensive if you want one that makes power above 5000 rpm (I'm looking at you, TPI). Plus, I hate to say it, but it's also expensive to find one attached to a manual trans that isn't going to shatter - the T5 is ok with the 5.0, but the retarded amount of torque that a 350/LT1/LS puts out will make a quick snack of a T5. Also, Chevy T5s go for stupid prices because they just weren't produced in the same volumes as the Ford version. T56s are a great way to go if you can find one that someone wants to get rid of and you don't mind dumping over a grand for a used tranny that might need a rebuild anyway.
The RX7 chassis is basically what I'd like the Fox chassis to be: rigid, good balance, good geometry from the factory, stout independent rear suspension setup. Also, with a hardtop RX7 I'd have some room to stow musical gear and stuff like that - the trunk of the Mustang might fit a briefcase. And I don't have a briefcase. I have guitar cases and a pedalboard so big I often get asked which keyboard I have when I'm traveling.
Also, I'm considering the resale value of the finished car - I took about a 3500 dollar bath when I sold my SE-R, and I was lucky enough to sell it to an enthusiast who was willing to shell out for what was there. 5.0s aren't exactly going for what they used to (although, really, I don't know why: the later Mustangs are big, heavy pigs in comparison and don't respond as well to mods. Ford added hundreds of pounds of weight to the same underpinnings and, in return, gave Mustang fans an engine that routinely gets bested by V6's, a trend that goes on to this day: the V6 version of the new Camaro has the same output as the Mustang GT. But I digress...). The flipside of that, though, is that the only people in the market for V8 RX7's are those who know what they are and dig the righteous blasphemy that they represent. I could end up getting more out of the RX7 further down the road, but I'd have to find the right buyer.
So I'm looking at this from all angles, and yes, it's a long post - sorry, I like to write, as well as read, and I'm sorry if this is long for you. But I think it could open up a good discussion on both pages and let the research speak for itself.
I'm wondering if the difficulty of the swap - plus acquiring the RX7, the space to work on it, etc - is going to outweigh the difficulty of fixing the Fox chassis. I'd always written off the Fox Mustang as not worth my time because of the chassis problems, but it seems that the few people who road race these cars instead of turning them into boulevard cruisers or drag demons have fixed the problems, and the results...well, let's just say that if I had the money I'd go right out and buy a Corvette. That's the car I want, but can't afford, and unless Motor Trend are lying their asses off, the Maximum Motorsports package will make a Fox out handle a 99 Vette - good enough for me. The RX7 would certainly run with the modded Fox, I would think.
The question is also one of how deep the rabbit hole goes, in terms of cash: It's about $2300 for the Road Race Box from MM, although I can phase it in gradually if I like (first steps: subframe connectors and panhard bar). I can certainly buy an RX7 with a blown motor, and the swap kit from Granny's, for that much. Plus - and this is unusual - I might end up going carb. There's this thing an associate is working on that makes carbs less anathema than I used to think, and if it works, I'll be running a carb (another reason the LT/LS Chevy's are at a disadvantage to me: who wants to pay $400+ just to convert one of these motors to a carb?). So the swap might not be much more involved than swapping a carb'd V8 into basically anything else you can think of.
So there's my dilemma. Sorry for the long post, but it's a complex matter, even without getting into all of the aesthetic nonsense - I don't really care about the domestic vs. import thing so much as I care about having a lot of horsepower and the capability of handling it. To me, that means a V8 (I've looked into the 'high tech' route for years and I can't say I'm all too impressed - horsepower is horsepower) mated to a good, sorted chassis, and there's the rub. I'll turn this over to y'all and see what comes out of it.
Thanks,
CID
Last edited by CID Vicious; 10-09-2008 at 08:11 PM.
10-09-2008, 07:47 PM
#5
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Idaho
Posts: 29
I'm fixing the link for the V8 RX7 Forum.
I did some number crunching yesterday - it's about the same amount of moolah either way. Even budgeting a grand for the RX7 and the kit.
However, I'm dissecting that Road & Track kit to see what really needs to be done. Like, for instance, I found a Summit coil over kit for what the Bilstein shocks alone go for from MM. Things like that. I'm wondering if the the steering shaft is really all that important, too.
It seems that the MM R&T box basically gives you the strut tower brace for free - in other words, you save about 250 and the additional shipping vs buying the parts separately.
I'm thinking the full length subframe connectors, Panhard bar, and steering rack bushings should get me a much more drivable car for about 500 bucks, then I can look at the next step. Phase it in gradually, although really I'd think that doing the entire rear at once with the Panhard bar would be easiest - LCRs, springs, etc.
One thing I'm looking at is, supposedly, the Granny's Speed Shop kit doesn't require welding. Although I can probably get someone to do it for me - I've got a few leads on stuff like that - I'd rather not.
I'm actually going to get to see the car in a few days, so I'll be able to see how smitten I really am with it. I might just trade it off - although it's heavy, a 9C1 Caprice is fast, has the biggest goddamn back seat I've ever seen in a car, and a huge trunk, comes with big assed brakes and heavy duty everything. It also tows - with steel wheels that car is rated to tow about 5000 lbs. with the proper hitch. It would all depend if I can find someone to trade for.
Speaking of which, I'm also thinking of swapping this car for a fastback with a stick, if anyone between Los Angeles and Oregon/Idaho is interested. I figure the fastback 5.0 Mustang and the RX7 probably hold about the same amount of crap, and I've seen guys stuff a drum kit - cases and all - in one, so it would solve a bit of my practicality problem.
Sorry for all of the waffling but I'm trying to guess the future as far as what kind of money I can expect to see - that's one thing in the Mustang's favor, it's at least a functioning car right now. The RX7, even in my hands right now unless it was running and driving, wouldn't count for much until I'm done with the swap.
I did some number crunching yesterday - it's about the same amount of moolah either way. Even budgeting a grand for the RX7 and the kit.
However, I'm dissecting that Road & Track kit to see what really needs to be done. Like, for instance, I found a Summit coil over kit for what the Bilstein shocks alone go for from MM. Things like that. I'm wondering if the the steering shaft is really all that important, too.
It seems that the MM R&T box basically gives you the strut tower brace for free - in other words, you save about 250 and the additional shipping vs buying the parts separately.
I'm thinking the full length subframe connectors, Panhard bar, and steering rack bushings should get me a much more drivable car for about 500 bucks, then I can look at the next step. Phase it in gradually, although really I'd think that doing the entire rear at once with the Panhard bar would be easiest - LCRs, springs, etc.
One thing I'm looking at is, supposedly, the Granny's Speed Shop kit doesn't require welding. Although I can probably get someone to do it for me - I've got a few leads on stuff like that - I'd rather not.
I'm actually going to get to see the car in a few days, so I'll be able to see how smitten I really am with it. I might just trade it off - although it's heavy, a 9C1 Caprice is fast, has the biggest goddamn back seat I've ever seen in a car, and a huge trunk, comes with big assed brakes and heavy duty everything. It also tows - with steel wheels that car is rated to tow about 5000 lbs. with the proper hitch. It would all depend if I can find someone to trade for.
Speaking of which, I'm also thinking of swapping this car for a fastback with a stick, if anyone between Los Angeles and Oregon/Idaho is interested. I figure the fastback 5.0 Mustang and the RX7 probably hold about the same amount of crap, and I've seen guys stuff a drum kit - cases and all - in one, so it would solve a bit of my practicality problem.
Sorry for all of the waffling but I'm trying to guess the future as far as what kind of money I can expect to see - that's one thing in the Mustang's favor, it's at least a functioning car right now. The RX7, even in my hands right now unless it was running and driving, wouldn't count for much until I'm done with the swap.
10-09-2008, 08:15 PM
#6
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Idaho
Posts: 29
Link fixed, and here's the link to the discussion on the V8 RX7 Forum:
http://www.v8rx7forum.com/v8-rx7-tec...tml#post506019
http://www.v8rx7forum.com/v8-rx7-tec...tml#post506019
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