Car is very hard to start
10-22-2007, 11:42 AM
#21
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Cork, Ireland
Posts: 6,417
RE: Car is very hard to start
Hi all,
you say that the mechanic insists that it is the spark:
a) you say that it got worse since you changed the points. Did you check on the dwell when adding new points (if the period of the points is to short it won't charge the coil properly).
Did you change the condenser as well ? if not you'll get sparks flying between the points .... no good.
b) when changing points/adjusting dwell the ignition will always change to advance or retard. but you say yopu had it set to 6BDTC now.
c) if the battery is very low it might not produce enough power for the spark. But I believe if it starts up right away after only 1 minute off and gives you a very hard time after 30 mins, then I'd rather tend to carb issues (where the spacer is the most common fix)
what exactly do you mean with:
"I know when they had the coil off it was "sparking all over the place" according to the 2 guys working on the car. "
coil off is usually no spark. What exactly was off, and where exactly did it spark ? did the sparks fly to ground (engine block), or in around the distributor ?)
Kalli
you say that the mechanic insists that it is the spark:
a) you say that it got worse since you changed the points. Did you check on the dwell when adding new points (if the period of the points is to short it won't charge the coil properly).
Did you change the condenser as well ? if not you'll get sparks flying between the points .... no good.
b) when changing points/adjusting dwell the ignition will always change to advance or retard. but you say yopu had it set to 6BDTC now.
c) if the battery is very low it might not produce enough power for the spark. But I believe if it starts up right away after only 1 minute off and gives you a very hard time after 30 mins, then I'd rather tend to carb issues (where the spacer is the most common fix)
what exactly do you mean with:
"I know when they had the coil off it was "sparking all over the place" according to the 2 guys working on the car. "
coil off is usually no spark. What exactly was off, and where exactly did it spark ? did the sparks fly to ground (engine block), or in around the distributor ?)
Kalli
10-22-2007, 11:53 AM
#22
3rd Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Near Cape Cod, Mass.
Posts: 615
RE: Car is very hard to start
I was inside the car so did not see it. When they were at the coil and said to start it, they said it was sparking all over the place and grounding out. They said the electric choke was hooked up wrong but it was NOT. It was working fine and was hooked up the right way. Then they said the tach was hooked up wrong but the kid who installed it was with me and corrected them.
The minute he changed points, it got worse and went back to how it originally was .... that is it starts as if it is flooded, you cna hold the starter and nothing happens at all. That stopped doing that a while ago and it was just the 8-10 second hold.
I will be taking it out later to see how it's starting.
I called my mechanic today, told him I was buying a carb spacer, and he said not to, that it's not vapor lock. My other mechanic insists it's spark and not fuel. I know my wiring is screwed up.
The car ran badly when I first got it (always about to stall) but once the timing was set to factory specs, that stopped happening. So, for a very long time the timing was wrong and I don't believe there was detonation and the pistons seem to be fine.
I just want to kick the car to the curb and not deal with it at this point. Too many cooks, too many people not listening to me, too many people insisting it's this or that, too many people without the knowledge locally to fix it.
The minute he changed points, it got worse and went back to how it originally was .... that is it starts as if it is flooded, you cna hold the starter and nothing happens at all. That stopped doing that a while ago and it was just the 8-10 second hold.
I will be taking it out later to see how it's starting.
I called my mechanic today, told him I was buying a carb spacer, and he said not to, that it's not vapor lock. My other mechanic insists it's spark and not fuel. I know my wiring is screwed up.
The car ran badly when I first got it (always about to stall) but once the timing was set to factory specs, that stopped happening. So, for a very long time the timing was wrong and I don't believe there was detonation and the pistons seem to be fine.
I just want to kick the car to the curb and not deal with it at this point. Too many cooks, too many people not listening to me, too many people insisting it's this or that, too many people without the knowledge locally to fix it.
10-22-2007, 09:51 PM
#24
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Join Date: Sep 2005
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Posts: 512
RE: Car is very hard to start
ORIGINAL: MustangPammie
When trying to start the car, they said it was sparking all over the place. Maybe the coil was back on but I don't think so, at least the cap was off. I was inside starting it, not fully watching them.
The timing is perfectly set at 6 right now but something is wrong with my car and no one seems to be able to diagnose it and/or fix it and I'm really REALLY frustrated at this point.
My wiring is screwed up and the spark is the issue, and the fact it was sparking and grounding out over and over just shows that this is the problem.
When trying to start the car, they said it was sparking all over the place. Maybe the coil was back on but I don't think so, at least the cap was off. I was inside starting it, not fully watching them.
The timing is perfectly set at 6 right now but something is wrong with my car and no one seems to be able to diagnose it and/or fix it and I'm really REALLY frustrated at this point.
My wiring is screwed up and the spark is the issue, and the fact it was sparking and grounding out over and over just shows that this is the problem.
Along with numerous other very experienced people, I have suggested that you may be experiencing vapour lock, given that you only see this starting problem when the car is hot. Its likely that if this was solely an electrical/ignition problem, then your hard starting would occur when the car is both hot or cold.
Heat affects fuel far more readily than basic electrics.
With regard to the spark grounding, it should be absolute childs play for your mechanic to simply look at where it is grounding as it would be throwing a blue spark. Where it is grounding would directly indicate where the problem is. ie grounding from near the plugs, wouldindicate spark leads in poor condition or not fitted correctly.
If your mechanic cant tell if the choke is wired correctly, or the tach is wired correctly, they have no business snooping around under you bonnet. Get a new mechanic, or go and do a basic shop course yourself.
BTW, setting the gap on the points is only a basic setup procedure to get it in the ball park. The correct way to "set points" is to use a dwell meter. When you adjust the gap, it affects timing. I tend to do the dwell, then set the idle speed then adjuest the timing,......... then again the dwell, the idle speed,and then the timing again.
One other thing to check is that you have the correct coil fitted, ballast resistor type, or non ballast type. using the wrong one can burn out points very quickly.
It would also be nice to know what car we are talking about here.
10-22-2007, 10:07 PM
#25
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location:
Posts: 306
RE: Car is very hard to start
I dont want to chime in and cause you more frustration, but IMO, it sounds like an ignition problem. Adjust your timing and see what happens. This is why i use a dizzy, to hell with that "point" $hit.
10-23-2007, 03:44 AM
#26
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Cork, Ireland
Posts: 6,417
RE: Car is very hard to start
the sparking all over the palce sounds frightening, but we need an exact description from where to where the sparks went.
You say that the car starts cold easy. Issues only when hot.
So if it's sparking all over the place it should never start. neityher hot nor cold. And all your problems seem to be gone when the engine is cold.
So from that it might be a coil who doesn't like warm starts, but you say you have that one switched already.
Check
a) engine grounding. take one lead of a jumplead and connect it from battery minus to a blank spot at engine. So you're sure the engine has ground
if that doesn't help check spark in general:
b) take proper electrical plyers, disconnect the lead from coil to distributor on distributor side.
hold it close to a blank spot at the jump lead. It should spark there when starting the engine (between the jumplead and the lead from distributor holding close to it).
if it does spark regular there, try holding it next to another blank spot at engine. should work as well
This way we tested most of your ignition. everything apart from rotor, cap and how strong the spark actually is.
c) if all above is good,
- put the lead from coil to distributor back
- pull out a spark plug (any easy accessible cylinder). plug the spark plug back into the lead which was connected to it.
- again with electrical isolated plyers hold the spark plug with its thread against the engine block (blank spot maybe at threads).
- start engine. there should be spark across the gap
if that's good as well I'd rather check for carb issues and probably go for the spacer as well. I don't know much about carbs, but the lads do ;-)
Kalli
You say that the car starts cold easy. Issues only when hot.
So if it's sparking all over the place it should never start. neityher hot nor cold. And all your problems seem to be gone when the engine is cold.
So from that it might be a coil who doesn't like warm starts, but you say you have that one switched already.
Check
a) engine grounding. take one lead of a jumplead and connect it from battery minus to a blank spot at engine. So you're sure the engine has ground
if that doesn't help check spark in general:
b) take proper electrical plyers, disconnect the lead from coil to distributor on distributor side.
hold it close to a blank spot at the jump lead. It should spark there when starting the engine (between the jumplead and the lead from distributor holding close to it).
if it does spark regular there, try holding it next to another blank spot at engine. should work as well
This way we tested most of your ignition. everything apart from rotor, cap and how strong the spark actually is.
c) if all above is good,
- put the lead from coil to distributor back
- pull out a spark plug (any easy accessible cylinder). plug the spark plug back into the lead which was connected to it.
- again with electrical isolated plyers hold the spark plug with its thread against the engine block (blank spot maybe at threads).
- start engine. there should be spark across the gap
if that's good as well I'd rather check for carb issues and probably go for the spacer as well. I don't know much about carbs, but the lads do ;-)
Kalli
10-23-2007, 04:58 AM
#27
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Near Cape Cod, Mass.
Posts: 615
RE: Car is very hard to start
Yes, it would be child's play if my mechanics looked at it when sparking, but since neither of my mechanics were there when it happened, then they can't really comment on it nor fix it.
It's not fuel, it's spark. The wiring system has been bad since day one and I have felt the shocks to prove it.
I'll know more on Thursday when the electrical wiring guy goes through it and fixes it.
The timing is fine, it had a timing gun on it yesterday after the new alternator was put on.
Kalli, I was inside starting it, so did not see the sparking, nor did my friend who works on my car. They said something kept grounding out, but that doesn't surprise me as Christine -- as I call this car -- tends to do that. The electrical system has been bad since the day I bought it and I've had quite a bit fixed already.
And yes, the coil was brand new even though the guy working on the car (not a mechanic, the auto parts guy who does mechanics) changed it to another new one.
It's not fuel, it's spark. The wiring system has been bad since day one and I have felt the shocks to prove it.
I'll know more on Thursday when the electrical wiring guy goes through it and fixes it.
The timing is fine, it had a timing gun on it yesterday after the new alternator was put on.
Kalli, I was inside starting it, so did not see the sparking, nor did my friend who works on my car. They said something kept grounding out, but that doesn't surprise me as Christine -- as I call this car -- tends to do that. The electrical system has been bad since the day I bought it and I've had quite a bit fixed already.
And yes, the coil was brand new even though the guy working on the car (not a mechanic, the auto parts guy who does mechanics) changed it to another new one.
10-23-2007, 05:00 AM
#28
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Near Cape Cod, Mass.
Posts: 615
RE: Car is very hard to start
ORIGINAL: JamesW
If it's the 'bird...sell it to me.*S* I'll EFI it..
If it's the 'bird...sell it to me.*S* I'll EFI it..
10-24-2007, 10:17 AM
#29
1st Gear Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: FTW, TX
Posts: 106
RE: Car is very hard to start
Pammie & All,
I am having similar issues with my car, '69 Remanufactured 302, Holley 600cfm 4bbl, Eldebrock intake, 1" alluminum spacer.K&N airfilter.Petronix ignitor vice points. Ran this setup for 80,000 miles,12yrs (88-2000) as daily driver with only standard maintainance. Started with one pump of gas right away. Car sat as barely a weekend driver for next 4 yrs. Been chasing gremlins ever since. Started out being only hot start problem, then later on cold starts as well. Once it starts, it runs perfect. Comes and goes also with no apparant care for outside temp range. Almost gave the care away once. Bad idea!!!
Here's what I'veswapped outso far:
Optima Red Top Batt and new cables. Cap, rotor, wires and plugs and coil.New Duralast Starter (old one was getting weak), Starter solenoid, new voltage regulator (rewired its connector because the wires were lose and coming off often). Fuel Pump and filter, New Holley Carb with elec choke, replaced accel cable and springs. Checked and cleaned all grounds (found several partially corroded). Each step would seem to fix but then... you know the story.Now I'm chasing wires. I'm thinking its got to be electrical.
New ignition switch and light switch went in last week. Starting is still a bit hard but seems to be a little better, so Ijust pulled out entire instrument panel to check for wiring/corrosion issues. One ground was a bit loose, some minor surface rust, but rest looks ok. Once I get it back together today, I'll see if it works and keep you posted. Next stepis a MR Amp alternator one wire mod. After that the entire elec system gets replaced.
Good luck,
F14Chuck
I am having similar issues with my car, '69 Remanufactured 302, Holley 600cfm 4bbl, Eldebrock intake, 1" alluminum spacer.K&N airfilter.Petronix ignitor vice points. Ran this setup for 80,000 miles,12yrs (88-2000) as daily driver with only standard maintainance. Started with one pump of gas right away. Car sat as barely a weekend driver for next 4 yrs. Been chasing gremlins ever since. Started out being only hot start problem, then later on cold starts as well. Once it starts, it runs perfect. Comes and goes also with no apparant care for outside temp range. Almost gave the care away once. Bad idea!!!
Here's what I'veswapped outso far:
Optima Red Top Batt and new cables. Cap, rotor, wires and plugs and coil.New Duralast Starter (old one was getting weak), Starter solenoid, new voltage regulator (rewired its connector because the wires were lose and coming off often). Fuel Pump and filter, New Holley Carb with elec choke, replaced accel cable and springs. Checked and cleaned all grounds (found several partially corroded). Each step would seem to fix but then... you know the story.Now I'm chasing wires. I'm thinking its got to be electrical.
New ignition switch and light switch went in last week. Starting is still a bit hard but seems to be a little better, so Ijust pulled out entire instrument panel to check for wiring/corrosion issues. One ground was a bit loose, some minor surface rust, but rest looks ok. Once I get it back together today, I'll see if it works and keep you posted. Next stepis a MR Amp alternator one wire mod. After that the entire elec system gets replaced.
Good luck,
F14Chuck
10-24-2007, 10:39 AM
#30
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Near Cape Cod, Mass.
Posts: 615
RE: Car is very hard to start
Frustrating, isn't it? You keep replacing and replacing and it still acts up!
I drove mine for 2+ hours yesterday and it was humid. Temp never went over 200 degrees as usual, and I stopped 3 times and each time it started with no issue.
In the morning, after a 15 minute drive and a 15 minute rest, it was hard to start.
People who have looked at the car (4 guys) say it's not vapor lock.
I guess I'll know tomorrow when the electrical guy -- whose expertise is car electrics on classics -- has fun with it. I saw him briefly yesterday to introduce him to me and my car and he said "something" was wired to the coil and that could be the problem.
He mentioned an electric starter but I was in a hurry so didn't have time to question him about that.
Good luck with yours. I knew my wiring was bad from the beginning and have slowly but surely been fixing and replacing. I'd love to throttle the previous owner.
I drove mine for 2+ hours yesterday and it was humid. Temp never went over 200 degrees as usual, and I stopped 3 times and each time it started with no issue.
In the morning, after a 15 minute drive and a 15 minute rest, it was hard to start.
People who have looked at the car (4 guys) say it's not vapor lock.
I guess I'll know tomorrow when the electrical guy -- whose expertise is car electrics on classics -- has fun with it. I saw him briefly yesterday to introduce him to me and my car and he said "something" was wired to the coil and that could be the problem.
He mentioned an electric starter but I was in a hurry so didn't have time to question him about that.
Good luck with yours. I knew my wiring was bad from the beginning and have slowly but surely been fixing and replacing. I'd love to throttle the previous owner.