302 block vs 351w torque/weight/handling?
01-11-2010, 02:37 AM
#11
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: ca
Posts: 27
i would think this makes perfect sense i have been looking at several 4-5k 331-347 built motors (other thread) anybody care to recomend?
like the idea of s/c or turbo what size /type turbo do you useis it one off a semi truck engine?
can you run say 6 psi with a useable c/r? nice to have that punch whenyou want it but my experiences with tuebos is theyre either on or off boost
apart from the variable vien type (tdi vw diesels)
and a whole bunch of cluttered pipework
whats the extra expence for a diy or off the shelf set up?
01-11-2010, 02:47 AM
#12
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: ca
Posts: 27
figure about 50-75 pounds difference with alum heads and intake, its nothing and move you battery to the trunk and they are about the same, with the 351w you get a stronger block/crank/rods and the ability to grow over 400 cubes and many stroker cranks/rods/pistons are lighter than stock components.....so its a win win, I went from a 289 to a 351 to a hotter 351 to a 408 and the 408 is real fun............but a twin turbo 5.0 pushing about 12psi will make 500hp as well. If I were to do it over I would probably choose the twin turbo route as you can have a smaller stock sounding good mpg engine with power on demand.
so to answer the original question
when you went up in engine size how did it affect the handling
or is it just a straight liner?
as for the displacement thing vs turbo u can still ad the turbo the bigger motor making it even more nuts! so that doesnt really count
same gos for the batery move u can do that with the small block so you still have 75lb hanging over the front (another 75lb the motor has to move)
its just i have the 393 stuff here
01-11-2010, 07:38 AM
#13
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I know what he's talking about with the piviting. The weight is not only more up front but higher also, especially with the steel heads and intake cars. The front will twist a little ant try to push when in a turn. If you normally drive a small block its an unuasual feeling. You will notice a differ when the battery is moved to the trunk, especially if its one of the heavy lead/acid type. Ford could'nt put the battery in a worse location, hanging it on the nose of the car well foward of the front suspension. I'm sure it acts more like a 150lb chunk insted of its actually weight. Maybe Norm will join in. He's the "ultimate" on suspension.
01-11-2010, 03:28 PM
#15
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The 302 stroker VS 351 was a question I answered for myself a while back.
I had a 5.0 and a 289 also a 351w all in my building and was wanting to build my car as a 500+ hp protouring car.
I picked the 5.0 did a 347 and a paxton added a TKO and Rod and customs front end kit.
I think I made the right choices on the 5.0 for weight and there is NO lack in power.
I had a 5.0 and a 289 also a 351w all in my building and was wanting to build my car as a 500+ hp protouring car.
I picked the 5.0 did a 347 and a paxton added a TKO and Rod and customs front end kit.
I think I made the right choices on the 5.0 for weight and there is NO lack in power.
01-11-2010, 04:34 PM
#16
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 70
Are you going to road race this car on just keep it on the street?
If you ever want to take it out on a road course you'll find out very quick that fast laps are much more about good tires, proper balance, and brakes than horsepower.
CMC mustangs are limited to 225 hp and they are seriously fast. Classic spec racers are similar.
The point is, if you want the car to be fast in the curves, build your brakes and buy the best wheels and tires you can.
If you want a cruiser with big power that will turn okay on the street, build the 351.
Good luck...
If you ever want to take it out on a road course you'll find out very quick that fast laps are much more about good tires, proper balance, and brakes than horsepower.
CMC mustangs are limited to 225 hp and they are seriously fast. Classic spec racers are similar.
The point is, if you want the car to be fast in the curves, build your brakes and buy the best wheels and tires you can.
If you want a cruiser with big power that will turn okay on the street, build the 351.
Good luck...
01-14-2010, 04:48 AM
#18
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: ca
Posts: 27
i agree im guessing experience on a track and knowing your car is the best
thing you can improve on possibly next would be tyres. BUT as imin the market for either building up parts i have or buying a short/long/crate motor
i need to hear peoples experiences between the 2 blocks when using an early car on the fast twisty stuff
thing you can improve on possibly next would be tyres. BUT as imin the market for either building up parts i have or buying a short/long/crate motor
i need to hear peoples experiences between the 2 blocks when using an early car on the fast twisty stuff
01-14-2010, 03:21 PM
#19
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something tht got my attention was the cobra run i went to a few years back.
The kit cars were mostly all about the same Factory 5 seemed to be the most ones there.
Some had BB 427-460 and quite a few had the 351 w stroker 427.
then you had the 302-5.0 crowd seemed the 302 could match close to the power of the bb but handled much better due to less weight on the front end.
the 351w guys seemed to hit a but of both power and less weight just the 5.0 cars dominated the auto x.
take all these things into how you want to use your car you can get 500 hp from a small block and keep it light.
The kit cars were mostly all about the same Factory 5 seemed to be the most ones there.
Some had BB 427-460 and quite a few had the 351 w stroker 427.
then you had the 302-5.0 crowd seemed the 302 could match close to the power of the bb but handled much better due to less weight on the front end.
the 351w guys seemed to hit a but of both power and less weight just the 5.0 cars dominated the auto x.
take all these things into how you want to use your car you can get 500 hp from a small block and keep it light.
01-14-2010, 10:12 PM
#20
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Join Date: Apr 2007
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A car that's heavier in the nose will brake like crap going into a turn, turn like crap going through the turn, and won't line up as quickly into the straight coming out of the turn(limiting when you can begin to reapply power to accelerate coming out of the turn). There's a reason you don't see any professionals go road racing with big heavy engines. Even the LS7 Vette that's 427cid is a small block that's aluminum...and the C6R Vettes(the racing Corvettes running in ALMS) are scaling back to a 6.0-6.3L from the 7.0 because they don't need that much power and it's cheaper to run. And in reality most of the Grand Am cars are only around 400-450hp, as are the GT1 and GT2 cars in ALMS, with the GT2 cars rarely pushing over 500-550hp.
Whoever has ever actually raced on a road course will know what I'm saying here....
POWER IS NOT ALL THAT IMPORTANT. Yes, you need power, but not a ton of it. If you've ever actually run on a road course or done AutoX, rarely are you ever under full power winding the engine out all the way through all the gears. WOT only comes in bursts that last a short period of time...not long enough for an extra 150hp to make that much difference. Braking and especially handling are more important, as is having an engine that responds well at the lower-mid rpm range, not one that has a crapton of top end power. ESPECIALLY in older cars like ours that are light to begin with and may not have the ideal suspension setup that's forgiving...meaning that a high HP RR classic Mustang can be a massive handful to try and drive.
At some point I'll build a bigger engine than what I have for a road race/autox setup, and I plan on going with a 363 in an aluminum 302 block. It'll be easy to build a 450-500hp engine that size that has really strong, broad mid-range and is easy to drive on a road course and the street. If you start going to a bigger block it almost HAS to be aluminum and then you're getting into a power range so huge that you need MASSIVE suspension work to control the thing...and at that point you're getting into building a classic Mustang that will outrun a modern Grand Am or ALMS production car. That's just getting out of hand. Keep in mind, the highly successful current S197 Mustang Grand Am car(boy racer) is only running a 5.0L engine with around 425hp, and beating Porsches and BMWs. The larger European GT3(man racer) Mustang is 550hp...and GT3 cars are FAST road racing cars(that's the race version of the supercar realm, Ford GT's, Lambos, Ferraris, Vipers...all the high end super performance cars).
Road racing is a TOTALLY different racing environment than drag racing. One needs a lot of power, the other doesn't.
Whoever has ever actually raced on a road course will know what I'm saying here....
POWER IS NOT ALL THAT IMPORTANT. Yes, you need power, but not a ton of it. If you've ever actually run on a road course or done AutoX, rarely are you ever under full power winding the engine out all the way through all the gears. WOT only comes in bursts that last a short period of time...not long enough for an extra 150hp to make that much difference. Braking and especially handling are more important, as is having an engine that responds well at the lower-mid rpm range, not one that has a crapton of top end power. ESPECIALLY in older cars like ours that are light to begin with and may not have the ideal suspension setup that's forgiving...meaning that a high HP RR classic Mustang can be a massive handful to try and drive.
At some point I'll build a bigger engine than what I have for a road race/autox setup, and I plan on going with a 363 in an aluminum 302 block. It'll be easy to build a 450-500hp engine that size that has really strong, broad mid-range and is easy to drive on a road course and the street. If you start going to a bigger block it almost HAS to be aluminum and then you're getting into a power range so huge that you need MASSIVE suspension work to control the thing...and at that point you're getting into building a classic Mustang that will outrun a modern Grand Am or ALMS production car. That's just getting out of hand. Keep in mind, the highly successful current S197 Mustang Grand Am car(boy racer) is only running a 5.0L engine with around 425hp, and beating Porsches and BMWs. The larger European GT3(man racer) Mustang is 550hp...and GT3 cars are FAST road racing cars(that's the race version of the supercar realm, Ford GT's, Lambos, Ferraris, Vipers...all the high end super performance cars).
Road racing is a TOTALLY different racing environment than drag racing. One needs a lot of power, the other doesn't.