Gorilla Performance Bal-Bar Balance Bar Dual MC's NO BOOSTER Required
05-07-2010, 11:07 AM
#1
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Join Date: May 2010
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Posts: 54
Gorilla Performance Bal-Bar Balance Bar Dual MC's NO BOOSTER Required
Hello Mustang Owners:
Here is a system for Mustang Owners. Dual Master cylinders and it only takes 16 to 30 square inches in the Engine compartment.
http://www.gorillaperformance.com/
http://www.gorillaperformance.com/images/bbpedal.pdf
http://www.gorillaperformance.com/images/bbfirewall.pdf
http://www.gorillaperformance.com/images/bb4way.pdf
http://www.gorillaperformance.com/instructions.html
With the compact remote master cylinders it is even smaller. You can move the master cylinders to the left by just adding a spacer to the Bal-Bar Assembly.
http://speedenames.com/store/gorilla.html
Here is a system for Mustang Owners. Dual Master cylinders and it only takes 16 to 30 square inches in the Engine compartment.
http://www.gorillaperformance.com/
http://www.gorillaperformance.com/images/bbpedal.pdf
http://www.gorillaperformance.com/images/bbfirewall.pdf
http://www.gorillaperformance.com/images/bb4way.pdf
http://www.gorillaperformance.com/instructions.html
With the compact remote master cylinders it is even smaller. You can move the master cylinders to the left by just adding a spacer to the Bal-Bar Assembly.
http://speedenames.com/store/gorilla.html
Last edited by Gorilla Performance; 05-08-2010 at 05:19 PM.
05-07-2010, 02:42 PM
#3
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California
Posts: 10,468
It's a common setup on race cars, but can be BAD news for a street car. That type of front/rear bias setup is adjustable and great for race cars as conditions change, but the pressure issues it creates in normal driving can create a car that's unbalanced somewhere. That's why the manufacturers use tandem m/c's with proportioning valves.
For a race car though a setup like that with a built in adjuster that can change the bias while driving is a superior setup on a track. That's what you see on all the Stock Cars and many road race cars.
For a race car though a setup like that with a built in adjuster that can change the bias while driving is a superior setup on a track. That's what you see on all the Stock Cars and many road race cars.
05-08-2010, 05:11 PM
#4
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Join Date: May 2010
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Street Car Application
It's a common setup on race cars, but can be BAD news for a street car. That type of front/rear bias setup is adjustable and great for race cars as conditions change, but the pressure issues it creates in normal driving can create a car that's unbalanced somewhere. That's why the manufacturers use tandem m/c's with proportioning valves.
For a race car though a setup like that with a built in adjuster that can change the bias while driving is a superior setup on a track. That's what you see on all the Stock Cars and many road race cars.
For a race car though a setup like that with a built in adjuster that can change the bias while driving is a superior setup on a track. That's what you see on all the Stock Cars and many road race cars.
Unless you have raced and used a balance bar set up before you really do not know what you are missing. Power brakes without the use of a booster.
CNC makes a set up now but it is over 10 inches long from the firewall to the end of the master cylinder this can be as little as 4" from the firewall. Here is a picture of the CNC set up:
This is ideal for the Mustangs, because they have less than 13" between the firewall and the shock towers. BBF's have almost little or no room for a booster. The other nice thing about this if you need a little more room between the master cylinders and the valve covers you can move the masters cylinders towards the fender, simply by adding a spacer between the Bal-Bar™ (balance bar) and the pedal.
The Gorilla brackets can be mounted 4 different ways and can be used with any 2.25" mounted master cylinder.
You do not have to modify your brake pedal. Uses the stock brake pedals.
Last edited by Gorilla Performance; 05-08-2010 at 09:04 PM.
05-08-2010, 09:22 PM
#6
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California
Posts: 10,468
I'm running a single tandem Wilwood master cylinder and have better brake feel than a lot of power brake cars. Especially when the brakes get a little heat into them. Dual master cylinders has almost nothing to do with that, it's all in the total piston areas of the m/c and brakes, pad area/compounds and the volume moved. And 2 master cylinders won't provide any more pressure or volume than 1 will when set up properly. Again, it's all about piston size and volume moved.
And balance bar assemblies are great for racing, yes. But they are HIGHLY not recommended for the street. They work great under full braking force when the front and rear tires are operating close to maximum available grip and you have the most load transfer to the front when the bias is set, but at lower speeds in street use with light-medium braking when the rear has a lot less load transfer, you want a different bias that gives the rear more brakes to account for increased rear load. That's why EVERY street car manufactured uses a hydraulic reduction system of some sort and not a dual m/c with balance bar.
Dual m/c would be ok on the street with around a 50/50 bias and a rear hydraulic pressure regulator, but that defeats the purpose of dual m/c's. And the hydraulic type reduction valves not only reduce pressure to the rear, but they have a set static pressure at which pressure reduction begins to occur. That way when you are under light-medium braking and under that threshold pressure, you get full pressure to the rear. The harder you get on the brakes and the more load transfer you get(reducing rear tire loading) then you hit the point where pressure reduction begins, and the ratio of front to rear bias increases as you approach maximum braking(at least that's how the majority of hydraulic proportioning units work).
Running a balance bar setup on the street means that you'll be forcing the front brakes do nearly all the work in normal driving, since bias begins immediately. It's the nature of a mechanical system. And it's even worse in the rain or other low traction conditions, where you have to brake more lightly. Since the bias is set for a full load transfer condition which you'll never see in bad weather, you'll be using almost NONE of the rear traction to stop, since it won't have proper bias. Which means under slick conditions only the front tires will be stopping you, so you're only going to be using about 50-60% of total available traction to stop, rather than 100%.
Like I said, there's a reason that every car manufactured for street use, uses a hydraulic proportioning system, and not a mechanical balance bar setup. I wouldn't even be surprised if the DOT has balance bar setups illegal for street use just for that reason(whether they do I don't know). It's a superior setup for a race car operating under maximum braking, especially with an adjuster. You can set bias for the given conditions as a multitude of variables change on track. But on a street car that has to operate across a wide range of speeds and braking loads, it's the least ideal bias setup, and that's where hydraulic reduction type proportioning works best. The drawback to hydraulic type is that the bias curve and total bias won't be ideal under all possible conditions, though it will be very close. Which is why race cars run balance bars and adjust as needed.
And balance bar assemblies are great for racing, yes. But they are HIGHLY not recommended for the street. They work great under full braking force when the front and rear tires are operating close to maximum available grip and you have the most load transfer to the front when the bias is set, but at lower speeds in street use with light-medium braking when the rear has a lot less load transfer, you want a different bias that gives the rear more brakes to account for increased rear load. That's why EVERY street car manufactured uses a hydraulic reduction system of some sort and not a dual m/c with balance bar.
Dual m/c would be ok on the street with around a 50/50 bias and a rear hydraulic pressure regulator, but that defeats the purpose of dual m/c's. And the hydraulic type reduction valves not only reduce pressure to the rear, but they have a set static pressure at which pressure reduction begins to occur. That way when you are under light-medium braking and under that threshold pressure, you get full pressure to the rear. The harder you get on the brakes and the more load transfer you get(reducing rear tire loading) then you hit the point where pressure reduction begins, and the ratio of front to rear bias increases as you approach maximum braking(at least that's how the majority of hydraulic proportioning units work).
Running a balance bar setup on the street means that you'll be forcing the front brakes do nearly all the work in normal driving, since bias begins immediately. It's the nature of a mechanical system. And it's even worse in the rain or other low traction conditions, where you have to brake more lightly. Since the bias is set for a full load transfer condition which you'll never see in bad weather, you'll be using almost NONE of the rear traction to stop, since it won't have proper bias. Which means under slick conditions only the front tires will be stopping you, so you're only going to be using about 50-60% of total available traction to stop, rather than 100%.
Like I said, there's a reason that every car manufactured for street use, uses a hydraulic proportioning system, and not a mechanical balance bar setup. I wouldn't even be surprised if the DOT has balance bar setups illegal for street use just for that reason(whether they do I don't know). It's a superior setup for a race car operating under maximum braking, especially with an adjuster. You can set bias for the given conditions as a multitude of variables change on track. But on a street car that has to operate across a wide range of speeds and braking loads, it's the least ideal bias setup, and that's where hydraulic reduction type proportioning works best. The drawback to hydraulic type is that the bias curve and total bias won't be ideal under all possible conditions, though it will be very close. Which is why race cars run balance bars and adjust as needed.
05-09-2010, 04:16 PM
#7
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Join Date: Apr 2008
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Posts: 939
I'v been using a CNC dual MC on my street track car for years. It's an excellent system, and works well in all situations - from hot track days to snowy mountain passes. After adjusting it once, I'v never had to adjsut it again.
I used the same MC for both stock Mustang brakes, and Large racing Wilwoods.
To the nay-sayers, you've either never used a system like this, or it was not set up properly.
The reason the factory doesn't use them is two fold. First, is cost. $350 vs. $50. If you were the decision maker for Ford, which would you choose. Besides, can imagine placing something that adjustable in the hands fo the average driver? Heck, many of them have trouble putting gas in the tank!
To the OP, another good market for this is the CObra replica and kit car groups. The Factory Five roadster uses all stock Mustang parts. This would be an excellent alternative.
I used the same MC for both stock Mustang brakes, and Large racing Wilwoods.
To the nay-sayers, you've either never used a system like this, or it was not set up properly.
The reason the factory doesn't use them is two fold. First, is cost. $350 vs. $50. If you were the decision maker for Ford, which would you choose. Besides, can imagine placing something that adjustable in the hands fo the average driver? Heck, many of them have trouble putting gas in the tank!
To the OP, another good market for this is the CObra replica and kit car groups. The Factory Five roadster uses all stock Mustang parts. This would be an excellent alternative.
05-09-2010, 09:31 PM
#8
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California
Posts: 10,468
Cost? Seriously? 2 small master cylinders is WAY cheaper than 1 m/c and a booster, plus lines to connect the booster etc. Boosters are expensive and far less reliable. And while a dual m/c with balance bar will work on the street, it's less than ideal for a lot of normal street driven conditions. Think about it, if it were the superior setup for a street car, how come it's not used on the "cost is not a consideration" supercars? Even a half million dollar Ferrari Enzo runs a power assisted booster and not a mechanical balance bar.
05-09-2010, 09:42 PM
#9
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: PA
Posts: 5,232
Shelby solved this problem in 1966 for the Hertz cars by using a MICO master cylinder. Built for industrial applications, it features a piston-within-a-piston. The large one provides short pedal travel, then the small one provides high hydraulic pressure.
05-09-2010, 10:55 PM
#10
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: NV
Posts: 54
Mico
I have used this MC in the pass, excellent MC, with little pedal effort. The only draw back was the single reservoir
Last edited by Gorilla Performance; 05-22-2010 at 11:30 AM.