2k05gt

Last week I was driving home from work and I got a Check Engine Light P0340 I looked this up and it says it's Camshaft Position Sensor "A" Circuit" what ever this means, I take my car to:
Battlefield Ford
8980 Mathis Ave
Manassas, VA. 20110
(703) 368-3184


They Call me later that day and tell me because of the aftermarket Underdrive pulleys they will have to charg me a $90.00 diagnostic fee to find the problem. Next day they call me and state that Ford Has Declined warranty work on my 2005 Mustang GT, because the Steeda Underdrive Pulleys operate the alternator outside of it's intended use. They claim that it is an alternator failure and it is causing this CEL P0340. I lookup the error on the TSB Website I I find this TSB out DTC P0340/P0344/P0345/P0349 - 4.6L 3V AND 5.4L 3V stating that this is an alternator issue.

So I contact my Dealer and provided them with the SEMA.ORG info and the The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act information, they are addiment that these pulleys caused the alternator failure, although they can't prove it. they are charging me $90.00 diag fee, and a $615.00 for the alternator plus labor. I do not know what else to do, I have invested 400 bucks in these pullieys (215.00 plus install) now the alternator. is there any info you can help me out with, contacts, something

I also Contacted Ford Warranty at 800 392-3673 they also claim that they will not cover the repair because of the aftermarket pulleys.

I contacted steeda they say this is BS and that they have thousands of these on the road with no problems

What can I do?

angcobra

Their claim makes no sense to me, the underdrive pulleys only turn the alternator slower like if you were running the engine at a lower speed.

I think we are seeing more and more of Ford using "aftermarket parts" as the out for them to not pay for warranty work. I guess if you change the rear gears which changes engine/alternator speed this would also void the warranty on alternators. Matter of fact, if you drive faster than the speed limit you change the normal speed of the alternator, that may also violate warranty.

If you want to get technical with this, get the specs for the alternator to find out what RPM range it is rated for, then calculate the alternator RPM with pulleys for range of engine speed from idle to redline, if it stays inside the rated range, they have no ground to stand on.

SpecterGT260

read the books, know the laws, and threaten small claims. if they cant prove the problem, it is still under waranty, and Im not sure that pulleys void waranty anyway. check up on that in ur own waranty book.

2k05gt

Here is the TSB, yet they still will not listen....


06-02-09 2004-2006 MULTIPLE VEHICLES - DTC P0340/P0344/P0345/P0349 - 4.6L 3V AND 5.4L 3V
SOME 2005-2006 F-SUPER DUTY AND EXPEDITION/ NAVIGATOR AND 2004-2005 F-150, EQUIPPED WITH 5.4L 3V ENGINE, AND 2005-2006 MUSTANG GT VEHICLES, EQUIPPED WITH 4.6L 3V ENGINE, MAY EXHIBIT A DIAGNOSTIC TROUBLE CODE (DTC) P0340 AND/ OR P0344; OR 2006 EXPLORER 4DR/ MOUNTAINEER EQUIPPED WITH A 4.6L 3V ENGINE MAY EXHIBIT A DTC P0345 AND/ OR P0349. THIS MAY BE DUE TO A MALFUNCTIONING DIODE OR OPEN PHASE CONNECTION IN THE GENERATOR. PERFORM A GENERATOR FREQUENCY TEST TO DIAGNOSE CAUSE OF CONCERN. DO NOT REPLACE THE GENERATOR UNLESS A FREQUENCY TEST INDICATES A FAULT. THIS TSB PROVIDES STEP-BY-STEP DIRECTION FOR PERFORMING A GENERATOR FREQUENCY TEST USING THE WDS OSCILLOSCOPE FUNCTION.
See TSB for complete details
EFFECTIVE DATE: 01/20/2006

Printable View (128 KB) TSB
06-2-9
DTC P0340/P0344/P0345/P0349 - 4.6L 3V AND 5.4L 3V
Publication Date: January 19, 2006
FORD:
2005-2006 Mustang
2004-2005 F-150
2005-2006 Expedition, F-Super Duty
2006 ExplorerLINCOLN:
2005-2006 NavigatorMERCURY:
2006 Mountaineer


This article supersedes TSB 05-23-17 to update the vehicle line coverage. ISSUE:

Some 2005-2006 F-Super Duty and Expedition/Navigator and 2004-2005 F-150 vehicles, equipped with 5.4L 3V engine, and 2005-2006 Mustang GT vehicles, equipped with 4.6L 3V engine, may exhibit a diagnostic trouble code (DTC) P0340 and/or P0344; or 2006 Explorer 4dr/Mountaineer equipped with a 4.6L 3V engine may exhibit a (DTC) P0345 and/or P0349. This may be due to a malfunctioning diode or open phase connection in the generator.
ACTION:

Perform a generator frequency test to diagnose cause of concern. Do not replace the generator unless a frequency test indicates a fault. This TSB provides step-by-step directions for performing a generator frequency test using the WDS oscilloscope function.
SERVICE PROCEDURE



NOTE:USING THE OSCILLOSCOPE TO MEASURE PEAK-TO-PEAK VOLTAGE IS NOT A GOOD INDICATOR OF A FAULTY GENERATOR.

NOTE:ENSURE THERE IS NO BATTERY CHARGER CONNECTED TO THE VEHICLE.
Ensure the connections to the battery terminals, engine grounds, and generator B+ are clean and secure.
Attach WDS battery cable clamps to battery/battery cables.
Turn on WDS.
Select the Toolbox Icon, (upper left of WDS screen).
Select Oscilloscope and then click OK.
Select Channel 1, Auto, Generator Ripple.
Select Calculations, Channel 1, Frequency.
Select Calculations again.
Push the RUN/STOP button. A waveform should display on the screen.
Start the vehicle and leave at idle (engine speed less than 800 RPM).
Turn on vehicle loads (high beams, blower set on high, heated seats, defroster, etc).
Examine the frequency reading on WDS.
NOTE:WDS CAN CALCULATE THE FREQUENCY AUTOMATICALLY. THE CALCULATED FREQUENCY IS LOCATED ON THE LOWER LEFT AREA OF THE OSCILLOSCOPE SCREEN. SOMETIMES THE FREQUENCY CANNOT BE CALCULATED BECAUSE THE WDS CANNOT RECOGNIZE AND MEASURE PEAK VALUES. IF THE WDS CANNOT CALCULATE THE FREQUENCY, IT WILL DISPLAY "INVALID" WHERE THE FREQUENCY READING SHOULD BE. THIS IS NORMAL IF THE RIPPLE VOLTAGE IS TOO LOW.
For a proper visible wave pattern, adjust the voltage scale and time scale until a good wave pattern is visible. Typically, a setting of 1mS/div and 100mV/div is a good starting point and can be adjusted as necessary.
Run vehicle until signal is steady. Then select the "RUN/STOP" button to freeze the waveform.
Determine if the generator is faulty based on frequency measurement:
NOTE:FREQUENCY IS DEPENDENT ON ENGINE RPM. PERFORM ALL TESTS AT IDLE OR FREQUENCY READINGS WILL BE INACCURATE.
Compare the WDS saved waveform to the sample waveforms in Figure 1. If measured ripple frequency is lower than 500 Hz, then generator is faulty and should be replaced. If generator is not faulty proceed to Step 16.
If frequency calculation cannot be made by WDS, it can be calculated manually. See MANUALLY CALCULATE FREQUENCY. If calculated ripple frequency is lower than 500 Hz, then generator is faulty and should be replaced. If generator is not faulty proceed to Step 16.
MANUALLY CALCULATE FREQUENCY
Count the number of complete voltage dips over a given range of divisions on the scope trace
Divide the number of voltage dips by the number of divisions to get the average voltage dips/division
Divide the value in Step 2 by the time scale (e.g. 1mS/div = .001 sec/division) to get frequency
NOTE:THIS METHOD OF CALCULATING FREQUENCY IS SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT THAN THE METHOD USED BY WDS, SO THE FREQUENCY MEASUREMENT VS. CALCULATED MAY BE SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT.
If the frequency test does not indicate a fault with the generator, proceed with normal Powertrain Controls/Emissions Diagnosis (PC/ED) diagnostics for the DTC. For F-Super Duty vehicles only, if the DTCs are still present after diagnostics, reprogram the powertrain control module (PCM) to the latest calibration using WDS release B38.11 and higher or B39.2 and higher. Calibration files may also be obtained at www.motorcraft.com. This new calibration is not included in the B39 CD. (DO NOT REPROGRAM EXPEDITION/NAVIGATOR, F-150, MUSTANG, OR EXPLORER/MOUNTAINEER).
PART NUMBERPART NAME5L7Z-10346-CAGenerator - Standard Duty - Expedition/Navigator5L7Z-10346-BAGenerator - Heavy Duty - Expedition/Navigator6L3Z-10346-AAGenerator - F-1506C3Z-10346-AAGenerator - F-Super Duty6R3Z-10346-DAGenerator - Mustang6L2Z-10346-AAGenerator - Explorer/Mountaineer

WARRANTY STATUS:

Eligible Under Provisions Of New Vehicle Limited Warranty Coverage
OPERATIONDESCRIPTIONTIME060209A2005-2006 Expedition/Navigator 5.4L 3V: Diagnose Generator Using WDS, If Generator Is Found Defective Replace Generator (Do Not Use With 10346A, 10200A)0.8 Hr.060209B2005-2006 Super Duty, 2004-2005 F150 5.4L 3V: Diagnose Generator Using WDS, If Generator Is Found Defective Replace Generator (Do Not Use With 10346A, 10200A)0.9 Hr.060209C2005-2006 Super Duty, 5.4L 3V: Diagnose Generator Using WDS, If Generator Is Found To Be Functioning Properly Reprogram The Powertrain Control Module (Do Not Use With 10346A, 10200A, 12650D, 12650D84)0.6 Hr.060209D2005-2006 Mustang 4.6L 3V: Diagnose Generator Using WDS, If Generator Is Found Defective Replace Generator (Do Not Use With 10346A, 10200A, 9926A, 12650D, 12650D84)0.8 Hr.060209E2006 Explorer/Mountaineer 4.6L 3V: Diagnose Generator Using WDS, If Generator Is Found Defective Replace Generator. (Do Not Use With 10346A, 10200A, 9926A, 12650D, 12650D84)1.1 Hrs.
DEALER CODING

BASIC PART NO.CONDITION CODE1034642

Tik_Tok

This is why I put all my old stuff back on when I take it back for service/warranty issues (except the exhaust of course)

Good luck with this though.

CrazyAl

My two cents:


I am no lawyer, but I belive that Magnuson-Voss applies only to REPLACEMENT parts, not parts that are fundamentally "different" than stock, such as modifications or "upgrades". For example, they can't deny your warranty becasue you used a Brand-X oil filter as opposed to a Ford-brand filter when you changed your oil last. That's becasue the two are basically the same thing. However, for aftermarket parts (those that change the function of the part), things are a bit different. When you installed the aftermarket pulleys you changed the function of the underhood accessories, including the alternator. I don't think that it applies. If you swap in a 500-cube big block with Nitrous and blow your rear end apart, is that Ford's problem? However, it's certainly a gray area. I would still use Magnuson-Voss as ammunition whenever you talk to the dealership and/or Ford.

Also, underdrive pulleys DO put a strain on your electrical system. As my old physics prof used to say, "there is no such thing as free lunch". The reason why underdrive pulleys give you HP is not magic. It is becasue they are diverting that power away from your engine accessories--including the alternator. When you use UDPs, you are not changing the electrical demands of the car. However, you are forcing the alternator to supply that same demand at a lower RPM. You are putting a higher load on the alternator. (This is why I, personally, won't run UDPs). Is is possible that your UDPs caused this problem? Maybe. I don't think it's very likely, but it is possible.

...the reason why I say that I think it's unlikely is becasue of the TSB from Ford that 2k05gt posted. If there is a known problem with the alternators in these cars, and that exact same trouble code appeared on your car, then I think its very likely--UDPs or not--that you are having the exact same problem described in the TSB. While it is possible that the UDPs contributed to the problem, I think that Ford should take the high road and fix your car at no cost to you. After all, they have already admitted that the alternator problem exists, and if you think about it, it is their fault for installing potentially defective components in the car.


angcobra, I think your analysis is a bit wrong:

The alternator's job is to supply the electrical demands of the car while the engine is running. Some of these demands are essentially constant regardless of how fast the motor is turning. This includes things like the lights, instruments, stereo, A/C blower, and so on. But, that is only part of the problem. Other electrical demands, such as the ignition, ECU, and Fuel Injectors, consume MORE electricity as the engine RPMs climb. When the Ford engineers designed the "generator system" they spec'ed the pulleys so that there is a certain ratio between the engine RPM and the alternator output. As the engine RPMs go up (its current demand goes up), the alternator RPM (and therefore alternator output) goes up as well, according to some specific ratio. The two are matched together. When you change to UDPs you change this ratio. The speed of the alternator might still be "within range" as you put it....but the relationship between the alternator RPM and the current demands of the car will have changed. I don't know what the "magic ratio" is. But, it is certainly possible to have the UDPs put you outside this range. With UDPs you could be spinning the alternator "within its rated range", but if the ratio between demand and output is wrong, then it doesn't matter. You're still overloading the alternator.


My advice is to make your situation as clear as possible to the dealership and/or Ford. Be polite, but direct and to the point: you bought a Mustang which had a potentially defective alternator installed in it FROM THE FACTORY. Ford has already acknowledged the problem in their TSB. Your car is under warranty and it is their duty to repair it--especially when they have already acknowledged the known problem of the defective alternator. You want the dealer to follow the TSB and replace your alternator, and you want it done now. I would bring print copies of the TSB and the Magnuson-Voss act with you. I wouldn't bring up the UDPs unless they do. If they do, produce the Magnuson-Voss paperwork and explain that it explains that Ford cannot void your warranty because of it. If they want to play hardball with it, you can give it 'right back to them. Make a big deal about it right there in the showroom. Explain that despite Ford admitting to the problem (TSB in hand, of course) they refuse to deal with it. Call the BBB and complain RIGHT THERE IN THE DEALERSHIP.

MikeHawke

try another dealer. If there is a TSB and you have a problem, I would think that they would have to fix it.

Try Ford customer service as well because this is BS.

persistantthug

That sucks.....I was thinking about doin this, but it sounds like I better think twice.


Question though, If you had bought the pully's from ford and had the work done at a ford dealership, would it have made a difference warranty-wise?

2k05gt

I asked them this, because they sell Saleen and Roush (Roush are Steeda Pulleys), both whom install UDP on there cars. They have an agreement with roush and saleen to service these Cars because it is sold by Ford. This is total BS

Oh they say they can warranty these becasue they were installed by an Ford autherized service shop

F00Mustang

Get a lawyer. The dealer must be able to prove that the aftermarket part caused the malfunction in question before warranty work can be denied. The fact that the pulley's are there is not sufficient evidense to show that they caused the alternator to go bad. Have you lawyer write a letter to the service manager of the dealership and to Ford threatening a law suit if the money is not reimbursed. It is true that the aternator does work a little bit harder with underdrive pulley's while at idle, but anything beyond about 2500-2800 rpm puts the alternator at full output and the regulator dial's down the output to not overcharge the battery and cause it to go bad., But even at idle, the alternator has more than enough juice to power you vehicle and then some (consider jump-starting another car).