easiest way to lose traction
10-16-2006, 12:40 PM
#1
3rd Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Chicago (South Loop)
Posts: 685
easiest way to lose traction
lately i've been curious as to the easiest way to lose traction in my STOCK 5spd 06 mustang gt. i know revving up to 4k in 1st then popping the clutch with tcs off will do the trick, as will getting mods, but that's not what i want. and i'm not talking about drifting either. just simple breaking traction. and yes, this is to be done on a private race track.
so, say im going 55mph on a straightaway and i want to break traction...what can i do? i know if i'm going through a turn i can just push in and release the clutch quickly while gunning it, or even pull the parking brake, but that's not what i'm talking about. is there any way in stock form in a 5spd to break traction @ 55mph?
also, what would happen if from a standing start, in stock form, i put it into 2nd, TCS off, revved to 5k, and dumped the clutch. would i spin the tires, or bog the motor?
lastly, WHY is it that when i put my car in 1st gear, TCS off, engage the clutch, and start moving forward slowly at 3mph with the clutch fully engaged, and then floor it, that my tires do not spin?? 300hp/320tq should certainly cause the tires to spin, yet that doesn't happen. hmm...
basically, my point here is that i feel like my car does not have the power it should in stock form. 300hp and 320tq should cause the tires to spin at the slightest blip of the throttle, yet they don't. i bought this car to have fun, and for the thrill of owning a muscle car, yet it feels like i'm driving a buick since i can't spin the tires unless i'm at a standstill. i should NOT have to mod a 300hp/320tq car simply to spin the tires. grr...
so, say im going 55mph on a straightaway and i want to break traction...what can i do? i know if i'm going through a turn i can just push in and release the clutch quickly while gunning it, or even pull the parking brake, but that's not what i'm talking about. is there any way in stock form in a 5spd to break traction @ 55mph?
also, what would happen if from a standing start, in stock form, i put it into 2nd, TCS off, revved to 5k, and dumped the clutch. would i spin the tires, or bog the motor?
lastly, WHY is it that when i put my car in 1st gear, TCS off, engage the clutch, and start moving forward slowly at 3mph with the clutch fully engaged, and then floor it, that my tires do not spin?? 300hp/320tq should certainly cause the tires to spin, yet that doesn't happen. hmm...
basically, my point here is that i feel like my car does not have the power it should in stock form. 300hp and 320tq should cause the tires to spin at the slightest blip of the throttle, yet they don't. i bought this car to have fun, and for the thrill of owning a muscle car, yet it feels like i'm driving a buick since i can't spin the tires unless i'm at a standstill. i should NOT have to mod a 300hp/320tq car simply to spin the tires. grr...
10-16-2006, 12:54 PM
#2
RE: easiest way to lose traction
I don't think our cars have enough power to lose traction on dry pavement at 55mph, and if they could it wouldn't be anything impressive. I think to get that kind of power you need boost.
It will probobly spin the tires a little bit, but not as much as it will if you do the same in first. Probobly not too good for the clutch either.
lastly, WHY is it that when i put my car in 1st gear, TCS off, engage the clutch, and start moving forward slowly at 3mph with the clutch fully engaged, and then floor it, that my tires do not spin?? 300hp/320tq should certainly cause the tires to spin, yet that doesn't happen. hmm...
Someone correct me on this if I'm wrong, but the ECM is programmed to minimize wheel spin even when TCS is off. The reason why it won't break the wheels in the situation you described is because the ECM see's that you going to WOT very quickly and gradually applies power to prevent wheel spin and maximize acceleration. Of coarse its not perfect and what you get(and everyone else for that matter) is the terrible throttle lag.
The are powerfull cars in stock form, but they are designed to be tame and easy to drive. If you get a ECM tune, that will liven the car up a noticable amount. I am able to break the wheels in second better than my last car could from a standstill, and my car is stock. In all honesty, I think you're expecting too much from a stock Mustang. Understand that even though they are rated at 300hp, the power measure at the rear wheels is closer to 250-260hp. With some basic bolt on mods you can probably hit 300hp, but don't expect much over that without nitrous or boost.
Invest in a good intake and tune, that will give you an extra 15-20hp right there. And the tune will increase the throttle response.
It will probobly spin the tires a little bit, but not as much as it will if you do the same in first. Probobly not too good for the clutch either.
lastly, WHY is it that when i put my car in 1st gear, TCS off, engage the clutch, and start moving forward slowly at 3mph with the clutch fully engaged, and then floor it, that my tires do not spin?? 300hp/320tq should certainly cause the tires to spin, yet that doesn't happen. hmm...
Someone correct me on this if I'm wrong, but the ECM is programmed to minimize wheel spin even when TCS is off. The reason why it won't break the wheels in the situation you described is because the ECM see's that you going to WOT very quickly and gradually applies power to prevent wheel spin and maximize acceleration. Of coarse its not perfect and what you get(and everyone else for that matter) is the terrible throttle lag.
The are powerfull cars in stock form, but they are designed to be tame and easy to drive. If you get a ECM tune, that will liven the car up a noticable amount. I am able to break the wheels in second better than my last car could from a standstill, and my car is stock. In all honesty, I think you're expecting too much from a stock Mustang. Understand that even though they are rated at 300hp, the power measure at the rear wheels is closer to 250-260hp. With some basic bolt on mods you can probably hit 300hp, but don't expect much over that without nitrous or boost.
Invest in a good intake and tune, that will give you an extra 15-20hp right there. And the tune will increase the throttle response.
10-16-2006, 01:22 PM
#4
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location:
Posts: 46
RE: easiest way to lose traction
Intake and tune it self will help out a lot on trottle response.... when i put it on it woke up my car a lot better...i don't suggest you waist any mony on nitrous or some kind of boost. get you a couple of bolt on mods and it will help you... I can break tires easy and even when i take off at a roll now i can break them loose...you'll love it with a tune and intake. It will make you want to do more. good luck bro. Hey and another thing even if your not trying to drift...u should watch Formula D some time they have some pointers some times on how to get loose. Also try maybe their web site they have videos there on drifting 101...
10-16-2006, 02:22 PM
#5
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location:
Posts: 413
RE: easiest way to lose traction
I don't know what kinda cars you're used to driving that break the tires loose at 55. That's not gonna happen, and if it does it'll just be a chirp. I think most people, at the track anyway, are happy with how good these cars hook up. I've got the stock 18's and I'm assuming you do too because from what I've heard of the pzero's is that they do not stick very good.
If you want to spin at 55 you probably need to hope for rain or snow. Regardless, your clutch is not going to like you very much if you're dumping it at high revs without breaking the tires loose. All in all, I just don't think this car is in any way built to do this. Don't get me wrong...I enjoy a nice slide/drift as much as the next guy, but I usually save that for rainy days so as not to demolish my bfg's or my tranny.
I know what you're thinking....one of the top american drifters races a mustang gt....keep in mind the only thing mustang gt on that car is the body....and even that is a stock body.
If you want to spin at 55 you probably need to hope for rain or snow. Regardless, your clutch is not going to like you very much if you're dumping it at high revs without breaking the tires loose. All in all, I just don't think this car is in any way built to do this. Don't get me wrong...I enjoy a nice slide/drift as much as the next guy, but I usually save that for rainy days so as not to demolish my bfg's or my tranny.
I know what you're thinking....one of the top american drifters races a mustang gt....keep in mind the only thing mustang gt on that car is the body....and even that is a stock body.
10-16-2006, 02:35 PM
#7
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location:
Posts: 1,470
RE: easiest way to lose traction
The S197's ECM has a torque management algorithm that's programmed to work with the throttle-by-wire setup in order to prevent the throttle body blade from moving as fast as the gas pedal when the latter is quickly mashed to the floor at low rpm's. This design is supposed to minimize driveline shock, and thus reduce the the amount of warranty work performed on damaged driveline components. But it also causes mushy low rpm throttle response, and unfortunately the only way to improve it is with mods.
An aftermarket tune remaps the torque management parameters that allows the throttle blade to open more linearly with the gas pedal, which improves the low rpm throttle response. It will not have the low rpm response of a wired throttle, but it will be much more improved than stock. Install a 91 or a 93 octane tune and an aftermarket CAI, and you'll get more hp to boot(approx. 20-30 additional rwhp). These are, without a doubt, the best "bang for the buck" mods.
If you want to burn even more tread off your tires, then install a lower rear gear(e.g., 4.10), underdrive pulleys, LT headers, and/or a catless X or H pipe. After that, there's S/C, turbo, and nitrous.
An aftermarket tune remaps the torque management parameters that allows the throttle blade to open more linearly with the gas pedal, which improves the low rpm throttle response. It will not have the low rpm response of a wired throttle, but it will be much more improved than stock. Install a 91 or a 93 octane tune and an aftermarket CAI, and you'll get more hp to boot(approx. 20-30 additional rwhp). These are, without a doubt, the best "bang for the buck" mods.
If you want to burn even more tread off your tires, then install a lower rear gear(e.g., 4.10), underdrive pulleys, LT headers, and/or a catless X or H pipe. After that, there's S/C, turbo, and nitrous.
10-16-2006, 05:15 PM
#8
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CA
Posts: 1,313
RE: easiest way to lose traction
Have you looked at a dyno graph of a stock GT manual mustang? At 3 mph you are at like 800 rpms, if you can find a dyno graph showing that low of rpms you will see that these 3V engines dont make anywhere near their 300 bhp 320 lbft peaks at that rpm so beaking them loose will be hard until the revs are up.
To trick the ECM, tip in on the trottle a little to start moving, when the revs hit 2200rpms try rolling onto the gas hard but don't slam the gas pedal down. This should make the ECM think you are not going from no throttle to full throttle so it won't limit the power delivery.
Also, if you are in areas of high elevation like denver or something, that thin air is choking your NA car and you won't see all those ponies either, however your 1/4 times indicate you are not at high altitude.
But like everyone else said, with CAI, tune, and gears - breaking the stock tires loose isn't a problem.
I personally like to break them loose by keeping the revs up (4000 rpms) and rolling hard onto the trottle in 1st or 2nd, with my mods it breaks traction everytime and I'm not hurting the clutch. Plus I think that a car that can break traction after it is moving already looks cooler and implies more power. My friend can pop the clutch on his old honda civic and break the tires loose from a stop but that doesn't mean its got a lot of power.
To trick the ECM, tip in on the trottle a little to start moving, when the revs hit 2200rpms try rolling onto the gas hard but don't slam the gas pedal down. This should make the ECM think you are not going from no throttle to full throttle so it won't limit the power delivery.
Also, if you are in areas of high elevation like denver or something, that thin air is choking your NA car and you won't see all those ponies either, however your 1/4 times indicate you are not at high altitude.
But like everyone else said, with CAI, tune, and gears - breaking the stock tires loose isn't a problem.
I personally like to break them loose by keeping the revs up (4000 rpms) and rolling hard onto the trottle in 1st or 2nd, with my mods it breaks traction everytime and I'm not hurting the clutch. Plus I think that a car that can break traction after it is moving already looks cooler and implies more power. My friend can pop the clutch on his old honda civic and break the tires loose from a stop but that doesn't mean its got a lot of power.
10-16-2006, 05:27 PM
#9
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location:
Posts: 1,313
RE: easiest way to lose traction
These motors just arent torque monsters down low. Simple as that.
If I step in in first, by 4500 the car is loose, any ripples in the pavement usually require a shift to second, at the top of second it is also loose. In third any ripple in the pavement will break the tires loose.
I just have a CAI and tune. But as far as stepping at at the bottom of any gear, dont expect alot to happen. I was told that it is a combination of a heavy car, small motor, and torque management. A 281ci motor can only do so much. I guess I consider the mustang GT to be a sports car and not a musclecar.
It is a great car in a ton of ways, but as far as raw torque, it just doesent have it without a SC.
If I step in in first, by 4500 the car is loose, any ripples in the pavement usually require a shift to second, at the top of second it is also loose. In third any ripple in the pavement will break the tires loose.
I just have a CAI and tune. But as far as stepping at at the bottom of any gear, dont expect alot to happen. I was told that it is a combination of a heavy car, small motor, and torque management. A 281ci motor can only do so much. I guess I consider the mustang GT to be a sports car and not a musclecar.
It is a great car in a ton of ways, but as far as raw torque, it just doesent have it without a SC.
10-16-2006, 07:20 PM
#10
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location:
Posts: 1,470
RE: easiest way to lose traction
Yes, I seen dozens of dyno graphs for the S197, and I'm well aware that it does not develop a whole lot of torque down in the low rpm range, thank you.
But in spite of that fact, I can actually break the tires loose at low rpm's in 1st and 2nd gear with just a tune and CAI as long as the conditions are right, e.g., cool ambient temperature and low ambient humidity. These factors not only reduce traction, but they also increase the torque that the engine generates over its entire rpm range because it's getting more oxygen(and hence more fuel) from the denser and dryer air per power stroke, and because the ECM is not pulling timing like it does when temps are hot in order to prevent pinging.
But in spite of that fact, I can actually break the tires loose at low rpm's in 1st and 2nd gear with just a tune and CAI as long as the conditions are right, e.g., cool ambient temperature and low ambient humidity. These factors not only reduce traction, but they also increase the torque that the engine generates over its entire rpm range because it's getting more oxygen(and hence more fuel) from the denser and dryer air per power stroke, and because the ECM is not pulling timing like it does when temps are hot in order to prevent pinging.