What Oil is best to use? Please help.
08-13-2008, 08:40 PM
#21
1st Gear Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location:
Posts: 51
This is true. I actually build this engine and run this test at an ASTM certified lab. The IIIG test is pretty brutal in terms of torture testing. It runs for 100 hours duration at 3600 rpm, 250 Nm load, and 150*c ( the F runs at 80 hours, 3600 rpm, 200 Nm load, 155*c). The G specs at about 11 kpa of vacuum on test, which is I believe like 1-1/2" of vacuum, they can't pull much more load without stalling. Most oils come out fairly thick and broken down, some do not make the 100 hours at all. Mind you this engine ramps down every 20 hours and basically gets an additonal quart added to it. I will not state which oils are the worst, as it would be bad for buisiness. However, if you see an API label stating the most recent ILSAC and API certification (letters & numbers in order ie: Sj, Sl, Sm, or GF3, 4, so on), then it has passed a bar of standards. The truth of it is that every oil maker knows what it takes to pass an oil, the trick is getting it to pass with the least additive amount possible. So the question is more like; how much did this manufacturer go beyond that bar? It is all about who can claim the latest certification and produce it the cheapest for the largest profit margins.
On a side note, we also did the testing for Amsoil, and it was some sick stuff. Mind you I said some engines don't make it to 100 hours, well we ran it for 300 hours as a special request - it never broken down or ran out of oil. In fact, at hour 120, we were still pitching oil to get it back down to test full. We rarely pitch oil at the 20 hour oil leveling, and never at hour 40, so take that into account. When we tore it down, very little wear and quite clean looking inside; this test was quite the buzz around the lab needless to say.
As long as you stay with the major names, mobil, valvoline, pennzoil, and so on, or see some recent certifications on the bottle, there isn't such a thing as a "bad" oil. These guys are number 1 in their industry for a reason.
The main advantage to a "synthetic" oil versus conventional these days is the longevity of it. The biggest problem with multigrade oils is that viscosity index improvers are used to make them thicken up when they heat up instead of naturally thinning out. With a conventional oil, you may start out at 10w-30, and end up with 5w-20 after a couple thousand miles. Thin oil is an advocate for increased friction and metal to metal wear (in other words, load-carrying capability and film strength). Whereas with a synthetic, with the same duration and mileage, may drop down to a 10w-25. They simply resist a chemical composition breakdown much better (and they are much more refined and cleaner also). This is also why they promote longer change intervals.
There you have it, what should be a good education in the never-ending oil questionaire....
On a side note, we also did the testing for Amsoil, and it was some sick stuff. Mind you I said some engines don't make it to 100 hours, well we ran it for 300 hours as a special request - it never broken down or ran out of oil. In fact, at hour 120, we were still pitching oil to get it back down to test full. We rarely pitch oil at the 20 hour oil leveling, and never at hour 40, so take that into account. When we tore it down, very little wear and quite clean looking inside; this test was quite the buzz around the lab needless to say.
As long as you stay with the major names, mobil, valvoline, pennzoil, and so on, or see some recent certifications on the bottle, there isn't such a thing as a "bad" oil. These guys are number 1 in their industry for a reason.
The main advantage to a "synthetic" oil versus conventional these days is the longevity of it. The biggest problem with multigrade oils is that viscosity index improvers are used to make them thicken up when they heat up instead of naturally thinning out. With a conventional oil, you may start out at 10w-30, and end up with 5w-20 after a couple thousand miles. Thin oil is an advocate for increased friction and metal to metal wear (in other words, load-carrying capability and film strength). Whereas with a synthetic, with the same duration and mileage, may drop down to a 10w-25. They simply resist a chemical composition breakdown much better (and they are much more refined and cleaner also). This is also why they promote longer change intervals.
There you have it, what should be a good education in the never-ending oil questionaire....
So tell us... what is your take on these aftermarket oil additives? Are PTFE additives a bad idea?
08-13-2008, 09:25 PM
#22
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 6
Without going into a whole lot of detail, a lot of the oil additives just aren't worth it. By the time you just buy a quality oil in the first place versus an inferior "mom's rest stop oil", then add this magic additive, it just doesn't make sense financially. Technology has come a long way, we are not in the 60's and 70's using oil from that era, the oil produced today is vastly superior to "back in the day". Truth be told, an oil change that is performed in accordance to how an engine is ran, will net a long life (minus the miracle cocktail). Meaning hotter engine temps (like towing, racing. or texas road heat), short distance drives, and racing/performance applications need to be changed out more often than one that runs all day, racks up a lot mileage with long drives, or doesn't see a lot of high revs, temps, or engine load. The whole name of the game is to change the "life blood" of your engine before the viscosity and overall protection begins to break down too far as to sacrifice your engine to the natural laws of physics.
Also I am not saying go out and buy Amsoil because it is "liquid gold" for your engine. I am purely stating what I witnessed. It is still a hard market to judge by, there is no "this is the list of the best oil starting with numero uno", it just simply isn't that easy or clear. Just fyi since you mention base stock group classification, Amsoil is a group 4 oil (also known as pure synthetics), this is why it costs what it does.
PTFE is a very controversial compound, I myself have not made my mind entirely up on it, but most that remember the old slick 50 stuff know of it well and how much ranting they did on it. I'll put it like this, it's questionable if it hurts anything, but it also is not a proven component to a longer lasting engine.
I myself remember the Mobil versus Castrol Syntec lawsuit. Basically, Castrol just took a petroleum base stock oil (group III) and refined it extremely well, and called it synthetic. Back then, Castrol used the group 3's, Mobil used group 4's. Well Mobil lost the lawsuit and Castrol was allowed to keep the title "synthetic". Ever since then, a lot of companies, including mobil I believe, hopped on the bandwagon - so it is hard to tell what truly is a synthetic anymore. Don't get me wrong though, just because that statement was made, doesn't mean Mobil 1 isn't good, it's still great stuff. It's just that the oil industry is a very gray area in terms of confusing marketing claims, which is what makes this business so tough to keep up on.
Also I am not saying go out and buy Amsoil because it is "liquid gold" for your engine. I am purely stating what I witnessed. It is still a hard market to judge by, there is no "this is the list of the best oil starting with numero uno", it just simply isn't that easy or clear. Just fyi since you mention base stock group classification, Amsoil is a group 4 oil (also known as pure synthetics), this is why it costs what it does.
PTFE is a very controversial compound, I myself have not made my mind entirely up on it, but most that remember the old slick 50 stuff know of it well and how much ranting they did on it. I'll put it like this, it's questionable if it hurts anything, but it also is not a proven component to a longer lasting engine.
I myself remember the Mobil versus Castrol Syntec lawsuit. Basically, Castrol just took a petroleum base stock oil (group III) and refined it extremely well, and called it synthetic. Back then, Castrol used the group 3's, Mobil used group 4's. Well Mobil lost the lawsuit and Castrol was allowed to keep the title "synthetic". Ever since then, a lot of companies, including mobil I believe, hopped on the bandwagon - so it is hard to tell what truly is a synthetic anymore. Don't get me wrong though, just because that statement was made, doesn't mean Mobil 1 isn't good, it's still great stuff. It's just that the oil industry is a very gray area in terms of confusing marketing claims, which is what makes this business so tough to keep up on.
08-14-2008, 10:39 PM
#24
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: NJ/PA
Posts: 330
Since we are talking about oils, I just saw the ad for Valvoline Full Synthetic oil that says that a lab confirmed its 5 times better than Mobil 1 or something like that. Whats up with that? I personally use German Castrol from AutoZone...
08-15-2008, 01:13 PM
#25
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location:
Posts: 9
Frequency of change most important
I got 350K miles out of my 3.0L LeBaron and currently have 100K on my 05 Mustang and 150K on my Durango. The Chrysler's engine was still running when I retired it. The secret is all about oil and filter changes. If you use the high mileage oils, 7-10K between changes(synthetic) be sure and match it with a high mileage filter. That will require more research for you. Personally, I'm not so sure high mileage filters exist other than, they say so on the box. I'd be more inclined to just change a standard filter after 3-5K and then the oil at the rated life. The filters are the key to your engine's life. That, and keeping the oil up to the proper level. No matter what you do, the older an engine gets the more oil it will eventually consume. It will become noticable sometime around 200k. You'll find you need to add 1/2qt before you get to 3k miles. I use standard petroleum motor oil and changed every 3K miles in all of my cars.
I use 5W-30 in my Mustang now. I have found the only reason Ford recommends 0W-20 is to help improve mileage. If anyone can prove the contrary please provide the evidence. The higher number provides better breakdown protection at higher temps. I've never subjected my car to temps low enough (below -40) requiring 0W oil. The crank bearing surfaces are not that tight to require lower than 5W.
To wrap it up. For a daily driver, it's not worth your while to go beyond standard synthetics and personally I'd just use a good standard petroleum oil and change at 3K miles.
I use 5W-30 in my Mustang now. I have found the only reason Ford recommends 0W-20 is to help improve mileage. If anyone can prove the contrary please provide the evidence. The higher number provides better breakdown protection at higher temps. I've never subjected my car to temps low enough (below -40) requiring 0W oil. The crank bearing surfaces are not that tight to require lower than 5W.
To wrap it up. For a daily driver, it's not worth your while to go beyond standard synthetics and personally I'd just use a good standard petroleum oil and change at 3K miles.
08-15-2008, 09:29 PM
#27
1st Gear Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location:
Posts: 51
Royal Purple is a good oil, no doubt. However, its best used in vehicles that live their lives on the track or strip. For a street car, high performance or not, 300 hp or more, its just pissing money down the drain. If Mobil 1 is good enough for NASCAR, its more than good enough for your occasional street light to street light, saturday night racer.
08-16-2008, 02:05 PM
#28
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 6
Royal purple is good, but not the best in the field in an all-around sense. In terms of the oils out there, there is basically decent, good, great, and superior. RP will probably fall in the borderline great and maybe superior category for automotive oils. For their motorcycle products, they fall to the end of the pack in the synthetics group in quite a few categories; still a good choice nonetheless for an automotive application.
Not sure what you mean by a "synthetic filter". Wix and purolator are some of the best you can buy as everyday-Joe. Napa gold (made by wix) and motorcraft (currently made by purolator), are great runner-ups. As strange as it is, I would stay clear of the mighty FRAM. Long-term engine damage can occur from these things' faulty anti-drain back valves causing "dry" starts. On top of that, I'd say 70% of your engine wear occurs on startup, more if the engine is started infrequently. Wear is already high on startup, no one needs something to worsen it anymore. If you want to do a cool little test, next oil change, cut the fram housing open, then do so on a wix or purolator. You will immediately feel puzzled as to how the construction of the fram makes them hold up under such intense pressure (20psi-70psi normally).
08-16-2008, 02:25 PM
#29
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 6
I use 5W-30 in my Mustang now. I have found the only reason Ford recommends 0W-20 is to help improve mileage. If anyone can prove the contrary please provide the evidence. The higher number provides better breakdown protection at higher temps. I've never subjected my car to temps low enough (below -40) requiring 0W oil. The crank bearing surfaces are not that tight to require lower than 5W.
To wrap it up. For a daily driver, it's not worth your while to go beyond standard synthetics and personally I'd just use a good standard petroleum oil and change at 3K miles.
To wrap it up. For a daily driver, it's not worth your while to go beyond standard synthetics and personally I'd just use a good standard petroleum oil and change at 3K miles.
For disclaimer purposes: *Follow and use the manufacturer's recommended grade and oil viscosity stated in the owner's manual*
Now if you live in say, nothern Canada or Russia or wherever, you absolutely need to use what is recommended for that climate. In some winters, 0w-XX can still flow like pancake syrup on those morning starts. If you attempted to start an engine with like a 10w-XX in the same conditions, kiss your engine goodbye in a short period of time.
08-16-2008, 02:45 PM
#30
6th Gear Member
To the OP:
You asked a basic question and have received very good suggestions before all the typical, beyond basic debating.
Mobil1 is an excellent oil and a great bang-for-the-buck. Match that up with the Motorcraft filter (or any other that you're comfy with) plus 5,000-7,000 mile oil changes and your engine will live as long as anyone elses. Personally, I go beyond 7,000 miles with full synthetics because I've done testing in the past and I'm comfortable with it but that part is up to you. If you wish to, you can even stick with any of the major synthetic blends at still do 5,000-7,000 mile oil changes. Heck, good ol' straight dino oil at 3,000 mile intervals and you'll STILL make it just as long and be no worse for wear (literally)... But that's just my personal opinion.
You asked a basic question and have received very good suggestions before all the typical, beyond basic debating.
Mobil1 is an excellent oil and a great bang-for-the-buck. Match that up with the Motorcraft filter (or any other that you're comfy with) plus 5,000-7,000 mile oil changes and your engine will live as long as anyone elses. Personally, I go beyond 7,000 miles with full synthetics because I've done testing in the past and I'm comfortable with it but that part is up to you. If you wish to, you can even stick with any of the major synthetic blends at still do 5,000-7,000 mile oil changes. Heck, good ol' straight dino oil at 3,000 mile intervals and you'll STILL make it just as long and be no worse for wear (literally)... But that's just my personal opinion.