what next? Twin Turbo, Twinscrew, or Procharger? or ...... ? please help
10-02-2008, 10:21 AM
#31
3rd Gear Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 960
The easiest way of explaining this boost vs. vacuum is throttle position not rpm. At half throttle and NO boost you could accelerate to say 100 mph at 4500 rpms and never see boost. Smash the throttle to 60 mph you will get full boost as you are getting there. Even though theres a belt, its load dependent.
There is a valve that opens when vaccuum is present. This allows the compressed air to escape, therefore, no boost. When the throttle is pushed quickly down, or WOT, the valve closes and allows the compressed air to make it to the engine. ProCharger calls it a Surge Valve. Turbos use whats called a wastegate. Same principal at work. The wastegate also bleeds off excess boost.
In a S/C car: say you hold a gear to 3-4000 rpm, no load, just holding it. The surge valve is open (vaccuum present), and you can hear from inside the car, air rushing out of it. The INSTANT you hit the gas, the sound is gone and boost builds (no vaccuum closes the valve). And just like a turbo, no boost is there until you punch it, because the wastegate is venting the extra air. I have not driven a TS car, so I dont know if the noise is there when no boost and in high rpms. They still have a similiar set-up to centris.
Getting a larger blower? Yeah. KB has different sizes for Fords ranging from 2.1L blowers to the new Mammouth 3.4L. ProCharger has different sizes. P, D and F. F has the most variable options to it. Vortech and Paxton are of the same type. Since its essentially a belt driven turbo without the exhaust side turbines, it can be tailor made to suit an engine application by altering the size, blade pitch, etc, of the impeller and housing.
S/C does have its own parsitic losses associated with the power it produces. Turbos do not. So turbos will make more hp/tq with equal amounts of boost. Turbos generate more heat than S/C. 10psi is considered the safe limit for engine longevity. What hp you get out of that 10psi is up to the tuner. 450-500 rwhp is the ballpark for 10 psi.
There are pros and cons to each. But the end result with either one is ear to ear grins. To me, for a street driven car with maybe a little time at the track just to see what you can do, nit picking the small differences is pointless. If you are going to use the car more on the track then on the street, talk to ModAddict. He has went through all the trials and tribulations of racing an S197.
My car is used as a 'nice day' driver. I have been to a dragstrip with it once (first time EVER), I'd love to take it to a HPDC on a road course, at least one time. The ProCharger, BBK shorties, and 3" Magnaflow exhaust are the only modifictions I have made that make a difference in power & 1/4 times. EVERYTHING else is as it left the factory. My best time out of 3 runs, traction limited, was 12.8 @108 w 2.07 60ft. I know there is more there. It would just take more practice. This is an automatic car for those not checking out the sig. So, the 200+ additional hp generated by the 10psi P1 HO ProCharger kit (540 advertised engine output) can easily knock 1.5 sec off a 1/4 run.
And yes there is a throttle blade inside the TB. Thats what controls airflow into the engine.
Sorry its long, Just trying to be complete, yet simple.
Last edited by SCCAGT; 10-02-2008 at 10:29 AM.
10-02-2008, 10:51 AM
#32
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Redding, CA
Posts: 4,552
A. Ackwai
I think I'm the only one around here with an STS kit. I have the single base kit which comes with a 60 journal turbo. I really like the kit but if I were to do it again I would have gotten the twin with ball bearing up grades or a large twin screw.
This is my dyno chart 9.5 psi for the street and 12psi at 100 octane for the track. We had some issues with the boost controler getting more boost and finally figured out we needed to load the car just a little more. On the test drive it made 14.5 psi (with a little pinging), we only saw 12.5 on the dyno. So a different waste gate spring and some tweaking to the controller and I could see 14-15 probably, which is what the little turbo is rated for.
My motor is built, but the street numbers are very attainable with a stock block if you have someone with the knowledge neccesary to tune our cars. NO EMAIL TUNE will get you there. It will take someone that knows what they are doing. If there is not someone that can custom tune your car that done S197s with a turbo, I would not get a turbo. They are much more difficult to tune properly and there are lots of variables to our engine with the VCT, knock sensors, weak rods and small displacement. The stock tune from STS was horrible. It had no timing, the VCT had not been changed and it was supersafe. At 10 psi I made almost 100 less hp and 80 less tq compared to 9.5-10 psi. The 470 is a lower compression motor, better valves and no CMCPs.
STS has been helpful at times and not at others. They want alot of money for the turbo I really want, a 67 mm BB. I might just do twins after all.
The twins screw for our blowers use less than 10 hp to make the pwoer they make. Turbo horsepower is not free either. A turbo is a big restiction on the exhaust.
I think I'm the only one around here with an STS kit. I have the single base kit which comes with a 60 journal turbo. I really like the kit but if I were to do it again I would have gotten the twin with ball bearing up grades or a large twin screw.
This is my dyno chart 9.5 psi for the street and 12psi at 100 octane for the track. We had some issues with the boost controler getting more boost and finally figured out we needed to load the car just a little more. On the test drive it made 14.5 psi (with a little pinging), we only saw 12.5 on the dyno. So a different waste gate spring and some tweaking to the controller and I could see 14-15 probably, which is what the little turbo is rated for.
My motor is built, but the street numbers are very attainable with a stock block if you have someone with the knowledge neccesary to tune our cars. NO EMAIL TUNE will get you there. It will take someone that knows what they are doing. If there is not someone that can custom tune your car that done S197s with a turbo, I would not get a turbo. They are much more difficult to tune properly and there are lots of variables to our engine with the VCT, knock sensors, weak rods and small displacement. The stock tune from STS was horrible. It had no timing, the VCT had not been changed and it was supersafe. At 10 psi I made almost 100 less hp and 80 less tq compared to 9.5-10 psi. The 470 is a lower compression motor, better valves and no CMCPs.
STS has been helpful at times and not at others. They want alot of money for the turbo I really want, a 67 mm BB. I might just do twins after all.
The twins screw for our blowers use less than 10 hp to make the pwoer they make. Turbo horsepower is not free either. A turbo is a big restiction on the exhaust.
10-02-2008, 11:19 AM
#33
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Caracas, Venezuela
Posts: 401
10-02-2008, 01:21 PM
#34
1st Gear Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Dubai
Posts: 72
A. Ackwai
I think I'm the only one around here with an STS kit. I have the single base kit which comes with a 60 journal turbo. I really like the kit but if I were to do it again I would have gotten the twin with ball bearing up grades or a large twin screw.
This is my dyno chart 9.5 psi for the street and 12psi at 100 octane for the track. We had some issues with the boost controler getting more boost and finally figured out we needed to load the car just a little more. On the test drive it made 14.5 psi (with a little pinging), we only saw 12.5 on the dyno. So a different waste gate spring and some tweaking to the controller and I could see 14-15 probably, which is what the little turbo is rated for.
My motor is built, but the street numbers are very attainable with a stock block if you have someone with the knowledge neccesary to tune our cars. NO EMAIL TUNE will get you there. It will take someone that knows what they are doing. If there is not someone that can custom tune your car that done S197s with a turbo, I would not get a turbo. They are much more difficult to tune properly and there are lots of variables to our engine with the VCT, knock sensors, weak rods and small displacement. The stock tune from STS was horrible. It had no timing, the VCT had not been changed and it was supersafe. At 10 psi I made almost 100 less hp and 80 less tq compared to 9.5-10 psi. The 470 is a lower compression motor, better valves and no CMCPs.
STS has been helpful at times and not at others. They want alot of money for the turbo I really want, a 67 mm BB. I might just do twins after all.
The twins screw for our blowers use less than 10 hp to make the pwoer they make. Turbo horsepower is not free either. A turbo is a big restiction on the exhaust.
I think I'm the only one around here with an STS kit. I have the single base kit which comes with a 60 journal turbo. I really like the kit but if I were to do it again I would have gotten the twin with ball bearing up grades or a large twin screw.
This is my dyno chart 9.5 psi for the street and 12psi at 100 octane for the track. We had some issues with the boost controler getting more boost and finally figured out we needed to load the car just a little more. On the test drive it made 14.5 psi (with a little pinging), we only saw 12.5 on the dyno. So a different waste gate spring and some tweaking to the controller and I could see 14-15 probably, which is what the little turbo is rated for.
My motor is built, but the street numbers are very attainable with a stock block if you have someone with the knowledge neccesary to tune our cars. NO EMAIL TUNE will get you there. It will take someone that knows what they are doing. If there is not someone that can custom tune your car that done S197s with a turbo, I would not get a turbo. They are much more difficult to tune properly and there are lots of variables to our engine with the VCT, knock sensors, weak rods and small displacement. The stock tune from STS was horrible. It had no timing, the VCT had not been changed and it was supersafe. At 10 psi I made almost 100 less hp and 80 less tq compared to 9.5-10 psi. The 470 is a lower compression motor, better valves and no CMCPs.
STS has been helpful at times and not at others. They want alot of money for the turbo I really want, a 67 mm BB. I might just do twins after all.
The twins screw for our blowers use less than 10 hp to make the pwoer they make. Turbo horsepower is not free either. A turbo is a big restiction on the exhaust.
Tuning might be a problem for me to be honest with you, and not only with the turbo tune, well ... with anything! ... as far as i know all dyno tuners over here are pros with Japanese cars, not muscle cars .. Therefore all FI stangs that I know of over here have had email tunes ... One of the guys with a Whipple SC took him weeks to get the right tune for his car .......... I know this might lead to one solution which is to get the TS but I hate the added weight to the nose!
I guess if am to get the STS twin turbo kit I will need to really find a tuner over here!
10-02-2008, 08:03 PM
#35
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Redding, CA
Posts: 4,552
Thanks Simon. Well yes, the twin turbo kit is what I'm looking at, but I really like your numbers! ... if you don’t mind me asking, what mods have you done to the internal though? or is it a new block by itself?
Tuning might be a problem for me to be honest with you, and not only with the turbo tune, well ... with anything! ... as far as i know all dyno tuners over here are pros with Japanese cars, not muscle cars .. Therefore all FI stangs that I know of over here have had email tunes ... One of the guys with a Whipple SC took him weeks to get the right tune for his car .......... I know this might lead to one solution which is to get the TS but I hate the added weight to the nose!
I guess if am to get the STS twin turbo kit I will need to really find a tuner over here!
Tuning might be a problem for me to be honest with you, and not only with the turbo tune, well ... with anything! ... as far as i know all dyno tuners over here are pros with Japanese cars, not muscle cars .. Therefore all FI stangs that I know of over here have had email tunes ... One of the guys with a Whipple SC took him weeks to get the right tune for his car .......... I know this might lead to one solution which is to get the TS but I hate the added weight to the nose!
I guess if am to get the STS twin turbo kit I will need to really find a tuner over here!
The motor is completely built and will handle anything I throw at within reason. I'm not sure the exact amount it will handle but I would imagine 700-800 rwhp would not be a problem.
Stock displacement
Manley valves
NO CMCP
Comp springs
JE Diamond pistons
Scat rods
Kellog crank
Iron block.
GT500 pumps with dual BAP and 60 psi injectors
The weight on the nose is in my opinion not something to be concerned with. There a ways to save weight to compensate for the added weight.
Have your tuner choose before you get any FI system.
10-02-2008, 09:50 PM
#36
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Caracas, Venezuela
Posts: 401
Regarding the tuner I would seriously recommend Justin@VMP, the first job we did together was a HP 60mm turbo kit, we did it in just two dyno sessions, in the first one we found the MAF signal was very unstable because of the design of the MAF housing so we modded that area with one of his housings, and on the next session with just 4 emails exchanging datalogs and tunes he nailed down the car to total perfection.
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