4.10 install nightmare...Going with 3.73's and could use some input
02-11-2009, 07:34 PM
#11
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location:
Posts: 1,699
Listen guys, I hate to be the 'bad guy' hear but some of you are being 'had'.
Saying all gears make noise is like saying all strokers have piston slap -
It's entirely false and 100% install/builder issues. If a stroker slaps, it is the builders fault - period. If the gears whine and cause vibration - it is the installers fault - period.
Use the forum to your advantage guys. Find some cars in your area that have had gear swaps and are 100% satisfied without any issues and go to their guy...period.
It is an art form installation IMO and not just a matter of slapping in a part from an instruction sheet. The FRPP are more forgiving than the motives when it comes to install imperfections so that's why you hear far less about the FRPP"s making noise than the motives but the motives are every bit as good - they just require a more precise install.
If someone is telling you that all gears make noise and don't worry about it - it's probably because all the gears HE INSTALLS make noise...lol
Don't change your gear OP - just change your installer.
BTW: could a bad install mess up your diff? - absolutely. I had a bad gear install lead to blowing apart a tru trak once.
OH - and let me give you guys a BIG piece of advice...
Because some shop has experience on older model mustangs - don't assume they can do squat on an S197. It is a completely different animal.
Saying all gears make noise is like saying all strokers have piston slap -
It's entirely false and 100% install/builder issues. If a stroker slaps, it is the builders fault - period. If the gears whine and cause vibration - it is the installers fault - period.
Use the forum to your advantage guys. Find some cars in your area that have had gear swaps and are 100% satisfied without any issues and go to their guy...period.
It is an art form installation IMO and not just a matter of slapping in a part from an instruction sheet. The FRPP are more forgiving than the motives when it comes to install imperfections so that's why you hear far less about the FRPP"s making noise than the motives but the motives are every bit as good - they just require a more precise install.
If someone is telling you that all gears make noise and don't worry about it - it's probably because all the gears HE INSTALLS make noise...lol
Don't change your gear OP - just change your installer.
BTW: could a bad install mess up your diff? - absolutely. I had a bad gear install lead to blowing apart a tru trak once.
OH - and let me give you guys a BIG piece of advice...
Because some shop has experience on older model mustangs - don't assume they can do squat on an S197. It is a completely different animal.
02-11-2009, 07:46 PM
#12
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: CT
Posts: 159
I'm not sure but the M in that part number might mean they are motive gear?
That might just be for the 4:10 set though.
I bought my 4:10s from Steeda. Good price, no problems.
http://www.steeda.com/products/ring_pinion_sets.php
The noise you describe sounds like a bearing issue to me.
They may have damaged the bearing when removing it, or possibly they didn't set the bearing pre-load correctly. One of the biggest PITA parts of the gear install is torquing down the crush sleeve without putting too much pre-load on the bearing.
Check out this video to see what I mean: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8APYO2sZyJU
02-11-2009, 08:11 PM
#14
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 11,278
Also, everyone says to use the FRPP A part numbered gears, as opposed to the M part number gears as they are made by Motive gear for Ford and they are allegedly noisey by nature, but try finding these A numbered gears, I've yet to see it in magazine ads, online vendors, the FRPP site, etc.
Notice the A at the end of the part number. When I bought my A gears from summit, they also sold the exact same part number only it ended with M and was $40 or $50 cheaper.
02-11-2009, 08:45 PM
#15
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Alberta Canada
Posts: 1,432
I agree with modaddict!
I have a friend who is a master gear installer. did it for way way to long! He will be doing mine (430s)
anyways even a motive can be installed silent its all about bearing load backlash and all the other 10 or so variables combined.
yes there is a difference as one is laser cut (frpp) and motives arent if i remember correctly and there is differences is hardnesses aswell.
get the gear you want! get a no noise guaranty, fill with factory fliud and friction modifier (maybe a tad less) and the flush and recheck backlash and tooth pattern after 5k kms (3k miles) only refill with a high end gear oil of your liking (rp ect)
shop around and dont go by price go by reputable shop with written guaranty!
I work with master mechanics some of 30 years and i wont let them do it, they wont do it! they know you need a true pro todo it right
I have a friend who is a master gear installer. did it for way way to long! He will be doing mine (430s)
anyways even a motive can be installed silent its all about bearing load backlash and all the other 10 or so variables combined.
yes there is a difference as one is laser cut (frpp) and motives arent if i remember correctly and there is differences is hardnesses aswell.
get the gear you want! get a no noise guaranty, fill with factory fliud and friction modifier (maybe a tad less) and the flush and recheck backlash and tooth pattern after 5k kms (3k miles) only refill with a high end gear oil of your liking (rp ect)
shop around and dont go by price go by reputable shop with written guaranty!
I work with master mechanics some of 30 years and i wont let them do it, they wont do it! they know you need a true pro todo it right
02-12-2009, 08:31 AM
#16
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Montaner
Posts: 6,193
Why would any of that be necessary? I have a factory rear end, that's never been done, and it works fine. No noise.
Last edited by Riptide; 02-12-2009 at 08:37 AM.
02-12-2009, 06:31 PM
#18
4th Gear Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Alberta Canada
Posts: 1,432
why? to ensure proper break in. It allows the best break in with the oem fluid and then demove any and all shavings/ in the diff. Also you shouldnt use a synthetic oil of anykind for break in.
Your oems dont whine because they are properly installed
People who change there fluid to synthetics will find small shavings in it too.
just think about it. why would you change your oem fluid to synthetic...
and why dosent factory use full synthetic.
I didnt make this up bro. any great installer will recomend a variation of this.
also be sure to follow proper heating cycle
Your oems dont whine because they are properly installed
People who change there fluid to synthetics will find small shavings in it too.
just think about it. why would you change your oem fluid to synthetic...
and why dosent factory use full synthetic.
I didnt make this up bro. any great installer will recomend a variation of this.
also be sure to follow proper heating cycle
02-12-2009, 11:00 PM
#19
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 33
Wow, thats the exact same problem on my car as well!( except for the vibration) I went from stock 3.31's (automatic here, for the record, also, stock driveshaft), to Ford Racing (FRPP) 3.73's. I went to a local shop, a one man show that is big with the 5.0/Fox body crowd, but he also does S197 work, he was a former Ford tech for years. Anyway, I had him order the FRPP gears, 3.73's,(part no. M-4209-F373 N)...I guess they're the "M" Motive gears everyone's been talking about, but try finding the "A" numbered gears! So he did the install, but he never ordered the FRPP gear installation kit (part no. M-4210-A). I never questioned him on that, whether he needed it or not, etc. or if he had one lying around. ( I'm sure he would have charged me for one if he used it, because its roughly 40 bucks.) He used 2 qts of Royal Purple "Max Gear" 75W 140, and 1 bottle of the Ford friction modifier additive. So, after it was done, I asked him about heat cycles, he said don't worry about that, just drive it , but don't "get on it" for 500 miles. So I did one better, and didn't "get on it" for 1,000 miles. I really didn't notice the noise at first, but it got gradually louder, and like you said only from 40 through 60 mph on acceleration, then it disappears, and again from 60 mph to 40 when you coast, no gas, then it disappears. Its not real loud, but its a howl, like wind as opposed to a high pitched gear whine sound. I read here some guys were filling the rear with more fluid until it was level with the fill hole, I had him do that, it took another 1/2 to 3/4 qt. of Royal Purple, but that did not work either. So he finally said its how the gears are made (cut). He said " its on the backside of the gear, they call that the backside, no big deal, its ok". I'm not totally convinced, especially since he didn't use the gear install kit. The car had 18,000 miles on it, I did it last June, now the car has 23,000 miles on it. I will take it to another shop to get a second opinion. Well, thats my lengthy story, hope it helps somewhat!
BTW : I've heard using Royal Purple ( or any other synthetic) as the way to go, I've heard never use synthetic, ever, and I've heard if you use the RP you don't have to use the friction modifier. My installer, like the majority of people, used the RP plus the friction modifier. Also, everyone says to use the FRPP A part numbered gears, as opposed to the M part number gears as they are made by Motive gear for Ford and they are allegedly noisey by nature, but try finding these A numbered gears, I've yet to see it in magazine ads, online vendors, the FRPP site, etc. Good Luck, I hope it all works out for you. I don't know jack squat about doing a gear install, but not using that gear install kit stays on my mind, I have my doubts. I dropped the car off in the morning, by noon he was done, was it too fast, who knows. (500 bucks, parts and labor)
BTW : I've heard using Royal Purple ( or any other synthetic) as the way to go, I've heard never use synthetic, ever, and I've heard if you use the RP you don't have to use the friction modifier. My installer, like the majority of people, used the RP plus the friction modifier. Also, everyone says to use the FRPP A part numbered gears, as opposed to the M part number gears as they are made by Motive gear for Ford and they are allegedly noisey by nature, but try finding these A numbered gears, I've yet to see it in magazine ads, online vendors, the FRPP site, etc. Good Luck, I hope it all works out for you. I don't know jack squat about doing a gear install, but not using that gear install kit stays on my mind, I have my doubts. I dropped the car off in the morning, by noon he was done, was it too fast, who knows. (500 bucks, parts and labor)
LOL, sounds EXACTLY like my situation.
A howl is a great way to describe it, so yes I'd say we're in the same boat there. I too had it done for about that price, no install kit...the ****er even used the same pinion bearing. Car was done in about 3-4 hours too.
From what I understand, the gear part number you said above is the right one. I was told for 410's, the # should end in "A", and for 373's it should end in "N". FRPP gears all start with M, so that doesn't necessarily mean motive. What matters is the last letter of the #, not the first.
I am taking my car to Deans Performance in St. Charles based on the recommendation of the crew at ChicagoSVT.com
He is a site sponsor and I have yet to hear a complaint. He seems very knowledgable, but I don't think he offers a no noise garauntee. I have yet to find a shop near Chicago that offers such a garauntee, but this guy seems to have his ducks in a row so I'm going to give it a go. He is aware of my situation, so I am sure he will do his absolute best.
02-13-2009, 08:27 AM
#20
6th Gear Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Montaner
Posts: 6,193
It amazes me all these reports of gear whine around here. Modaddict is probably right about it being wrong. Judging by all these reports of gear whine then a couple things must be true. First the s197 gear install must be more finicky than most other cars. And secondly finding an installer that is capable of properly installing these things without any resulting whine is extremely difficult. In fact, it could end up being a VERY expensive mod if you have to jump from shop to shop until someone finally gets it right. Very discouraging honestly.